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Made in us
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator





Good Ol' Texas

 Brotherjanus wrote:
 Lucarikx wrote:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Fragnaughts for BA. They are great in drop pods( as long as they have AT support).

Lucarikx


See my last post above this.
\

Oops....

I totally meant to do that... Just to reiterate how amazing they are.

Lucarikx


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Unfortunately, fragnaughts do not make the codex. :(
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




The deck of the Widower

Martel732 wrote:
Unfortunately, fragnaughts do not make the codex. :(


True, but they do make it more fun. I once shot a unit of 10 Daemonettes in a ruins and did over 30 wounds between the frag cannon and heavy flamer. Needless to say that unit was gone.

 
   
Made in us
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator





Good Ol' Texas

I agree with Brotherjanus. I killed 10 GH and 5 BC, and I almost got Lukas; with one dreadnaught! They do make gaming a LOT more fun

Lucarikx

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/12 01:30:11



 
   
Made in eu
Executing Exarch






 Griddlelol wrote:

It's almost like you didn't read anything. If the JP units are hanging back, they're not contributing. Even a small 5 man squad is 90pts that's not helping out in the game until the end. Wasting points like that in a rather elite army is not a way to win. You've just given yourself a 90pt handicap. It's not like they can't be ignored until later, since they won't be relevant until later anyway.
If they're not hanging back then they're probably in combat, where due to their lack lustre performance have either lost, ran and been finished off, or are stuck there. That scoring unit won't last long. At least TACs can take a heavy weapon and contribute from turn 1 while waiting to score later.


It's almost like I don't think the blood angels have got much worse isn't it?

I'm impressed. I mention a squad and you think of the worst way to run it and then tell me its bad.

Blood Angels need to fight like the eldar now. Unit synergy is key - if you charge with 1 lone squad, or try to just stand on an objective, that'll cost you the squad.

Assault marines work a lot better when your opponant is too busy worrying about podding fragnoughts, outflanking, scouting baals, stormravens (IMO - single best flier in the game) with hammernators and av13 dreadnoughts that can wipe a squad out in one turn and units using descent of angels to land behind your vehicles and melta them. Thats not including corbulo turrning a tac sqaud into a complete pain in the a**e with his 2+ FNP tanking. Did I mention fast vindicators?
Mephiston is ap3 now, so don't charge things he can't handle. Keeping him with the book powers (so jump pack) means he has the speed to avoid a lot of the ap2 characters - just use him to demolish someone's heavy support etc - ie put him right where your opponant doesn't want him. So yeah, just use him to kill everything else.
Edit: oops - forgot the obligatory podding sternguard too. And all vehicles being fast actually.

They lost the +1 I from furious charge (everybody did) and now it means they don't get to charge and kill marines first all the time. They are still easily good enough to give most armies a lot of grief.

IMO - The Blood Angels are still a good army - they just require more finesse to play them now.

Just enjoy the challenge

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/02/12 11:53:37


 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 labmouse42 wrote:


As I mentioned, the point of any 'troop' at the end of the day is to take objectives and deliver some damage output. Given a choice between the two, taking objectives is the more important role.

Some troop choices, like 30 ork shootas/guants do this by just blobbing over objectives and using their bodies to ablative absorb damage. Others grab objectives late game like eldar jetbikes. Some just stand and take whatever you can throw at them like plague marines.

So how are some units better? We could break units down and assign values to what we think their capacity to take objectives and deal damage is. Its a lot of work, but that could be a fun excercise.


It is probably a lot of work, but I'd think it would be worth it, just to get some analysis done. This thread might not be the thread to start it, but I'll just write some stuff here.

Off the top of my head, there are a few different measures of effectiveness, based on objectives and contributing to the fight.

First, we have Taking Objectives. This largely represents the mobility of the troops unit. Guardian Jetbikes are going to score very well here.
Next, we have Holding Objectives This represents a troop's ability to stand on an objective for longer than a turn. Survivability will be the main criterion here. Guardian Jetbikes won't score that well here, but Plague Marines will score very well.
After that, we have Contributing Dakka This represents the amount of firepower that a given troop outputs in a turn. Fire warriors and shoota boyz should do well here.
Then, we have Contributing Choppa This represents the willingness and ability of a given troop to be in CC.
Last we have Cost. This of course represents what you're going to have to pay to get what you get.

I'm sure we could probably come up with some form of simple math that could give us descriptions of efficiency at each metric (maybe just divide other scores by cost? Perhaps more complex stuff.). It would still be subjective (there are different ways to contribute both dakka and choppa, as well as different mechanisms for getting to and holding objectives), but we'd have a baseline to work with.

Am I missing any categories that you think should be part of an effectiveness analysis?
   
Made in us
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Connecticut

 Thariinye wrote:
First, we have Taking Objectives. This largely represents the mobility of the troops unit. Guardian Jetbikes are going to score very well here.
Next, we have Holding Objectives This represents a troop's ability to stand on an objective for longer than a turn. Survivability will be the main criterion here. Guardian Jetbikes won't score that well here, but Plague Marines will score very well.
After that, we have Contributing Dakka This represents the amount of firepower that a given troop outputs in a turn. Fire warriors and shoota boyz should do well here.
Then, we have Contributing Choppa This represents the willingness and ability of a given troop to be in CC.
Last we have Cost. This of course represents what you're going to have to pay to get what you get.
Am I missing any categories that you think should be part of an effectiveness analysis?
I like your base functions
* Taking Objectives
* Holding Objectives
* Contributing Dakka
* Contributing Choppa

I think the first two should be scored equally, and the last two should be scored equally. Some people will say shooty should be worth more than choppa, but I believe that if your good at choppa you have your own advantages. For example, who is going to want to park 3" away from an objective covered in genestealers? The first two should be scored higher than the last two (maybe 30%-50% higher). There is a reason Tau warriors suck as troops, they can't move or hold worth a darn without significant investments of devilfish and leaders.

There are also methods you can use to increase your units effectivness. As I mentioned, I have been playing PMs in friendly games. One of the best force multiplier for the PMs is to bring a rhino. The ability to move 18" up to the objective you want to camp on is huge. This is why I think PMs score so high on the four criteria.

For purposes of cost, we should use a point-per ratio. I started already with my blog article Resilience-Per-Point (RPP). In short, I use this equasion for determining the value of a units Resilience.
Base resilience = 1/(((To Hit) * (To Wound) * (Fail Save) * (Fail FNP)) / (Wounds))
Divide this value by the cost of the model to get its resilience-per-point (RPP)
Base resilience per point = ((Base resilience)/(Point Cost)) * 100


You can use a similar concept to handle the other criteria. For purposes of damage dakka/choppa you want to compare how many wounds they can deliver to GEQ/MEQ/TEQ per-point. For purposes of taking objectives, you want to compare their ability to move in inches per-point, and give a multiplier (or additive bonus) if they unit can ignore terrain.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/12 14:59:08


 
   
Made in us
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Good Ol' Texas

It's almost like I don't think the blood angels have got much worse isn't it?

I'm impressed. I mention a squad and you think of the worst way to run it and then tell me its bad.

Blood Angels need to fight like the eldar now. Unit synergy is key - if you charge with 1 lone squad, or try to just stand on an objective, that'll cost you the squad.

Assault marines work a lot better when your opponant is too busy worrying about podding fragnoughts, outflanking, scouting baals, stormravens (IMO - single best flier in the game) with hammernators and av13 dreadnoughts that can wipe a squad out in one turn and units using descent of angels to land behind your vehicles and melta them. Thats not including corbulo turrning a tac sqaud into a complete pain in the a**e with his 2+ FNP tanking. Did I mention fast vindicators?
Mephiston is ap3 now, so don't charge things he can't handle. Keeping him with the book powers (so jump pack) means he has the speed to avoid a lot of the ap2 characters - just use him to demolish someone's heavy support etc - ie put him right where your opponant doesn't want him. So yeah, just use him to kill everything else.
Edit: oops - forgot the obligatory podding sternguard too. And all vehicles being fast actually.

They lost the +1 I from furious charge (everybody did) and now it means they don't get to charge and kill marines first all the time. They are still easily good enough to give most armies a lot of grief.

IMO - The Blood Angels are still a good army - they just require more finesse to play them now.

Just enjoy the challenge


Exalted.

Lucarikx


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




PredaKhaine wrote:
 Griddlelol wrote:

It's almost like you didn't read anything. If the JP units are hanging back, they're not contributing. Even a small 5 man squad is 90pts that's not helping out in the game until the end. Wasting points like that in a rather elite army is not a way to win. You've just given yourself a 90pt handicap. It's not like they can't be ignored until later, since they won't be relevant until later anyway.
If they're not hanging back then they're probably in combat, where due to their lack lustre performance have either lost, ran and been finished off, or are stuck there. That scoring unit won't last long. At least TACs can take a heavy weapon and contribute from turn 1 while waiting to score later.


It's almost like I don't think the blood angels have got much worse isn't it?

I'm impressed. I mention a squad and you think of the worst way to run it and then tell me its bad.

Blood Angels need to fight like the eldar now. Unit synergy is key - if you charge with 1 lone squad, or try to just stand on an objective, that'll cost you the squad.

Assault marines work a lot better when your opponant is too busy worrying about podding fragnoughts, outflanking, scouting baals, stormravens (IMO - single best flier in the game) with hammernators and av13 dreadnoughts that can wipe a squad out in one turn and units using descent of angels to land behind your vehicles and melta them. Thats not including corbulo turrning a tac sqaud into a complete pain in the a**e with his 2+ FNP tanking. Did I mention fast vindicators?
Mephiston is ap3 now, so don't charge things he can't handle. Keeping him with the book powers (so jump pack) means he has the speed to avoid a lot of the ap2 characters - just use him to demolish someone's heavy support etc - ie put him right where your opponant doesn't want him. So yeah, just use him to kill everything else.
Edit: oops - forgot the obligatory podding sternguard too. And all vehicles being fast actually.

They lost the +1 I from furious charge (everybody did) and now it means they don't get to charge and kill marines first all the time. They are still easily good enough to give most armies a lot of grief.

IMO - The Blood Angels are still a good army - they just require more finesse to play them now.

Just enjoy the challenge


You are misusing the term "synergy'. No army I'm aware of can just send a single unit out and have things work out. But the cost of BA and the list of overpriced but ineffective goodies in the BA codex make this more likely. What you are describing is the same kinds of things all lists need to do.

Mephiston is now bad not matter how much you trying to insist he isn't. All the BA special characters are *bad* except Tycho. This is demonstrably true, when comparing them to other special characters that exist in the the game.

There is no amount of "finesse" that will compensate for paying more for units that simply do less compare to what's available in other codicies. Remember, they can play with "finesse" as well, and then mathhammer takes back over. In the end, averaged out across all possible games and all possible players, the mathhammer of the situation can not be avoided. I'm glad you are not dismayed by the 6th edition changes, but its best to be honest about the situation and not put on rosy glasses.

   
Made in us
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New Jersey

Tycho AND corbulo are our only characters worth taking. However in a BA list we are pressed for points and effective units. I'll take a librarian over most other HQ choices and use him to buff a squad. I don't expect much from him and I view him as an army tax, something that i HAVE to take. Now that DA librarians are so cheap it's like salt in the wound. For an army of space vampires, you would think we would have some decent HQ choices. Couple this all together with Dante and Astorath getting hit with the nerf hammer (now strike at I 1) I expect nothing from my HQ slots. That being said I am giving Tycho a go, he hasn't seen the table top since second Ed.

   
Made in ca
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Canada

I'm not sure what the complaining about Dante is. Sure he's I1, but he's still got precision deep strike, an infernus pistol, his ridiculous death mask auto-nerf and hit and run to top it off. If you're wanting to run a combat captain, it's hard to go wrong with him...

   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Martel732 wrote:


You are misusing the term "synergy'. No army I'm aware of can just send a single unit out and have things work out. But the cost of BA and the list of overpriced but ineffective goodies in the BA codex make this more likely. What you are describing is the same kinds of things all lists need to do.

Mephiston is now bad not matter how much you trying to insist he isn't. All the BA special characters are *bad* except Tycho. This is demonstrably true, when comparing them to other special characters that exist in the the game.

There is no amount of "finesse" that will compensate for paying more for units that simply do less compare to what's available in other codicies. Remember, they can play with "finesse" as well, and then mathhammer takes back over. In the end, averaged out across all possible games and all possible players, the mathhammer of the situation can not be avoided. I'm glad you are not dismayed by the 6th edition changes, but its best to be honest about the situation and not put on rosy glasses.



This is the definition of synergy as I understand it.
Definitions of 'synergy' - 1 definition -

(n.) the working together of two things to produce an effect greater than the sum of their individual effects.

That was what I meant - covering an army by turn two with a lot of difficult to deal with units makes them harder to deal with than a more static army.

The list of characters that Mephiston beats flat are as long as my arm . I completely agree if you send him against ap2 characters with a 2+ and a lot of attacks he'll lose, but choose different targets and he'll make his points back a fair amount of times.

If you get him to someones back line, he'll wreak havoc - He can hide out of LOS effectively, then use his 12" move to get exactly where he needs to be. He can't be instant killed by much in the way of shooting, so unless multiple squads can see him they are unlikely to shoot him to death.
Then he gets into cc and he's so hard to stop - challenges mean you charge, take an overwatch and fight a character. He most likely kills that character, then goes into cc with the squad next turn. The squad don't get any bonuses in cc the next turn, so unless it's a dedicated cc unit, he'll still win. His Initiative is good enough that if you break, he will most likely sweeping advance your squad (unless its marines).
Unless your opponant is keeping someone like Lysander or Abaddon back to deal with him, they'll struggle to stop him. If they do, just fly off somewhere else and break stuff over there instead.

As an example - I went up against BA as chaos. I took a juggernought khorne lord - ap2, up to 13 attacks and a 4++. Mephiston buffed himself, then charged. He instant killed the lord before he could swing. Then started wiping his way through my berzerkers, smashed the maulerfiend I charged onto him before it could hit and generally, did his best to completely ruin my day. My list and tactics weren't great, but I didn't get a second chance.

I'm not saying anything along the lines of 'man up' or 'play better' and if 'finesse' came across that way it wasn't meant like that. I agree that assault has been nerfed in 6th and I know that I'm not going to change your mind on the BA, but I still don't think they are a 'bad' army.
The list of unique BA units I listed earlier are some of the hardest units to counter for a lot of armies.
An AV13 dread, being podded against an aegis defence line probably won't be killed by 4 str 7 shots. Then it gets to do what it wants. If you drop that in it's a major threat - and if someone chooses to shoot at with their quad gun, they aren't shooting something else that they might kill.
Combine this with out flanking Baal predators. If they shoot, they are every bit as bad as the helldrake - drop those two on someone's home objective.
Corbulo can make a squad all but immune to basic arms fire and can win challenges as he's got a decent strength and rending. Plus the fact that unless you are str 8 or causing instant death, he'll take everything you hit him with. And still not die.
All the vehicles being fast is great - you have predators that can move 12" and fire - they are so hard to hide from.
Fast vindicators are lethal.
I find the BA cost more, but the pay off is speed - all the vehicles can shoot more often than vanilla marines, purely by being fast and getting better los.
Storm Ravens will ruin people's day - an av12 all round flier with the fire power to destroy a squad in a turn, using POTMS to shoot something else as well. Against the aegis defence line with the quad gun, it can just infiltrate above 48" away and still shoot at the gun due to the blood strike missiles having about a 72" range - so there isn't safe area protection unless you have the icarus.
Then it drops hammernators and possibly another dread. Mephiston leaping out of the front is great for shock value.
10 assault marines, moving up the board to take an objective while someone is being shot, burnt and stabbed from all angles from turn one won't take as much shooting - this is why I used the term synergy - they are better because of whats around them.
Games aren't won with mathhammer. With Mathhammer, you can see the most likely result that a certain action will have. Nothing can predict the time that you shoot at a flier with a spare missile launcher, roll a 6, then roll another six, then have the flier fail it's evade and then roll another 6 and blow it out of the sky. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.
The times it does are the reasons we playing like the game.

I'll stop rambling now...






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I'm not sure what the complaining about Dante is. Sure he's I1, but he's still got precision deep strike, an infernus pistol, his ridiculous death mask auto-nerf and hit and run to top it off. If you're wanting to run a combat captain, it's hard to go wrong with him...


The death mask auto nerf is funny if you mix 30k and 40k. Horus - scared by Dante that much he loses a wound...
His I6 is still good for sweeping advances.

The only thing I don't like is that the sanguinor ran off with the eternal warrior for the BA. In the meantime Dante is the oldest living (whole) marine in the imperium. He's been around for something like 1100 years... but apparently not long enough to qualify for eternal warrior.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/12 23:59:59


 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





New Jersey

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I'm not sure what the complaining about Dante is. Sure he's I1, but he's still got precision deep strike, an infernus pistol, his ridiculous death mask auto-nerf and hit and run to top it off. If you're wanting to run a combat captain, it's hard to go wrong with him...


Goin from i5 to i1 is no big deal? Pretty big game changer IMO. Most other codex's vanilla HQ's can kill him, all he has to do is fail one invulnerable save to say a Tac sergeant with a powerfist, at that point who cares if the Srg dies also. I've been using Dante since second Ed. He used to strike at initiative, have a choice of using his axe (with two modes of attack) or using his inferno pistol in hand to hand, and also wasn't insta killed by weapons that doubled out his toughness. He was points costed for 5th Ed with a weapon that struck at initiative and allowed him to negate all armor saves. It's not that he's necessarily a bad character, he's just to many points for too little return. Pretty much all BA toons took a big nerf when switching over to 6th. Dante and Astorath same problem. Sanguinor and Mephiston share the same issue of only having ap3. The only way I would field Dante in this editon is with Sanguinary guard with all inferno pistols to nuke something turn one, nothing a Sternguard squad in a pod can't accomplish for cheaper points.

   
Made in ca
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Canada

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I'm not sure what the complaining about Dante is. Sure he's I1, but he's still got precision deep strike, an infernus pistol, his ridiculous death mask auto-nerf and hit and run to top it off. If you're wanting to run a combat captain, it's hard to go wrong with him...


Goin from i5 to i1 is no big deal? Pretty big game changer IMO. Most other codex's vanilla HQ's can kill him, all he has to do is fail one invulnerable save to say a Tac sergeant with a powerfist, at that point who cares if the Srg dies also. I've been using Dante since second Ed. He used to strike at initiative, have a choice of using his axe (with two modes of attack) or using his inferno pistol in hand to hand, and also wasn't insta killed by weapons that doubled out his toughness. He was points costed for 5th Ed with a weapon that struck at initiative and allowed him to negate all armor saves. It's not that he's necessarily a bad character, he's just to many points for too little return. Pretty much all BA toons took a big nerf when switching over to 6th. Dante and Astorath same problem. Sanguinor and Mephiston share the same issue of only having ap3. The only way I would field Dante in this editon is with Sanguinary guard with all inferno pistols to nuke something turn one, nothing a Sternguard squad in a pod can't accomplish for cheaper points.

To be fair, he was a steal at 225pts in 5th, now he's just reasonable. And yeah, he can be killed by a PF-wielding Sergeant, but those aren't exactly common anymore according to the Internetz. He has the same worries as any non-EW character, if you're worried about a PF character then get a Sergeant or Priest to soak up the challenge for him and LoS anything else.

   
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Everyone focuses on the AP 3 thing for Mephiston. That's not what is the biggest problem. He's 250 pts, he's a level 3 psyker, and *can't join units*. If I could put him in a unit and then cast divination like Eldrad can with his army, I'd still use him. It's the combination of AP3, and getting hosed out of a power selection, and he can't join units AND costing 250 points that makes him bad.

Dante for 225 is a bad joke. Seriously. And the joke's on the BA.

Games are not won with mathhammer, but they *are* won with decisions based on likely outcomes.

Using the Stormraven as a transport is a recipe for disaster. The Stormraven is not some super boon for the BA. It's a flier tax to be able to shoot down other fliers. It's overpriced for what it does and how it can actually be used, just like most units in the BA codex. The Vendetta makes it look just slowed, and I think the Helldrake is also a superior flier, all things considered. Not for anti-flier, but in terms of helping to win the game. The stormraven has performed in a very mediocre manner for me. If it doesn't show up till turn 3, and there are not fliers to shoot, it almost always is a waste.

I think you are confusing the idea of "BA have nothing good at all" with "BA don't have enough things that are reasonably priced and effective compared to other codicies." The BA are a bad codex. That's just what happens to some lists when GW shakes up the anthill. I'm fine with it, but lets not pretend the codex is not a train wreck when it clearly is.
   
Made in us
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New Jersey

So basically what your saying is a 225 point character needs a baby sitter so he doesn't get in over his head. Dante just seems like an old man who is past his prime.

It reminds me of a taunt from America's Army, "grandma was slow but she was old". Well Dante is certainly old.


Go look at Abbadons capability for just 40 points more, which doesn't
even cover the cost of adding a Sanguinary priest (nurse) to Dante (old man).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/13 01:26:05


   
Made in us
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Dante was never a steal at 225 pts. Especially not in the edition of the "hidden powerclaw".
   
Made in us
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New Jersey

Martel732 wrote:
Dante was never a steal at 225 pts. Especially not in the edition of the "hidden powerclaw".


Dante hasn't been a steal since 2nd Ed. Lol

   
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Dante at the very least should be an eternal warrior. That's bare minimum. Especially for *225* I can two librarians for that for dishing out divination love!
   
Made in ca
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet






Canada

Ragnar would like to have a word with you... 245 points... what the hell was Phil Kelly thinking...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
So basically what your saying is a 225 point character needs a baby sitter so he doesn't get in over his head. Dante just seems like an old man who is past his prime.

It reminds me of a taunt from America's Army, "grandma was slow but she was old". Well Dante is certainly old.


Go look at Abbadons capability for just 40 points more, which doesn't
even cover the cost of adding a Sanguinary priest (nurse) to Dante (old man).

It's not even a tax/baby-sitter, because the unit he'd be with would have one anyway in all likelihood.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/13 02:54:41


   
Made in eu
Executing Exarch






Martel732 wrote:
Using the Stormraven as a transport is a recipe for disaster. The Stormraven is not some super boon for the BA. It's a flier tax to be able to shoot down other fliers. It's overpriced for what it does and how it can actually be used, just like most units in the BA codex. The Vendetta makes it look just slowed, and I think the Helldrake is also a superior flier, all things considered. Not for anti-flier, but in terms of helping to win the game. The stormraven has performed in a very mediocre manner for me. If it doesn't show up till turn 3, and there are not fliers to shoot, it almost always is a waste.

I think you are confusing the idea of "BA have nothing good at all" with "BA don't have enough things that are reasonably priced and effective compared to other codicies." The BA are a bad codex. That's just what happens to some lists when GW shakes up the anthill. I'm fine with it, but lets not pretend the codex is not a train wreck when it clearly is.


The storm raven won't compare well to the vendetta - because nothing does. The vendetta is insanely good for what it costs. The helldrake has been faq'd to sell more models .
In the meantime it has a great range of weapons, av12 all round so you can't even shoot it in the back. Then it drops another av13 dreadnought and 5 hammernators into you. What else can do that?
It's a support craft - it's rules enable you to get dreads and hammernators into threat range the same turn as the outflanking baals arrive and the dreadnought drop pods come down, while hammering down with 5 weapons.
If you are just using it to take out enemy fliers, then take an aegis defence line instead, it's a lot cheaper. Make the enemy react to you rather than the other way round.

I don't see the ba as a bad codex because no other codex gives you the amount of 'horrible, in your face target prioritising choices' so quickly.
EG
Baal pred and a Fragnought both attack the same unit - which one do you take out? Shoot the pred and the dread charges. Shoot the dread and the tank crisps you. And this is turn 2 at your end of the table.

Oops, nearly forgot - BA also get the blender dread. You know, the unit which charges and keeps hitting till everything is dead. ALL other marine armies would kill to have that as an option.

IMO - The sentence beneath is hyperbole.
"but lets not pretend the codex is not a train wreck when it clearly is."

"Games are not won with mathhammer, but they *are* won with decisions based on likely outcomes"

Occasionally it comes down to one dice roll. For example, the thread about Abaddon - the mathhammer shows he's awesome against lots of characters. So what happens when he deep strike mishaps and kills himself?

If you are so down on the BA that you literally can't see a way to win, then I see it as you've got 3 choices. You can
1)play a different army
2)pin all your hopes on 7th coming along and being the perfect, balanced game.
3)sell up.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/13 14:02:24


 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I've won plenty of games. But still less than half. I'm not "down on the BA", GW made 6th down on the BA.

Actually I think the blender dread is rather weak due to delivery problems. I never use them, and I don't ever worry when I see one on the opposing BA list. I didn't like them in 5th, and now that they are AP3, they are even worse. The fragnought is much, much better than the blender dread. I would never take a blender dread in the elite slot over a rifleman. The blender dread is another BA point sink toy that ends up having limited success in the actual battles. Too many crappy toys in the BA codex.

The Stormraven can not be used as a transport. I have reiterated this over and over. This invites disaster than the BA can ill-afford. Not only do you risk losing everything in it, you risk poor reserve rolls. The Stormraven fails as a transport. I have beaten every BA player that has put stuff on board that thing that I have played. (Admittedly it helps that I know exactly how to counter every trick the BA have) In the best case, the contents can assault on turn 3. Too late in many cases. The Stormraven is best used as anti-air. I don't want people "reacting to it", I want it to live and shooting down helldrakes.

I think the BA fail as a "horrible in your face" army because their choices aren't that scary and the model count it too low. Games can be lost in a single turn of shooting in 6th edition and running up into your opponents grill with too few models is a good way to have that happen.

I don't own a different army and I'm not selling this one. I'll just a lose a lot in 6th and not worry about it because its a GW game. It's just intellectually dishonest to allow people to rationalize their way into thinking this codex is still good. It is not.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/02/13 14:43:31


 
   
Made in eu
Executing Exarch






We're down to opinion now -
Mine is that they are not a bad codex.
Yours is that it is a bad codex.

Why am I intellectually dishonest for not agreeing with you?








This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/13 15:04:19


 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Part of it is not opinion. They are paying the same points for units that are *demonstrably* less effective than in 5th edition. I guess I should amend that to say its intellectually dishonest to try so say they didn't get nerfed.

I suppose you can hold the position that the nerfs "weren't that bad" and there is no right or wrong answer to this. How many competitive lists do you play against? What's your track record in general games?

I also gave specific reasons as to why the units you praised are not as good as you are making them out to be. The problems I stated are not opinion.

The worst part is that I don't think GW was trying to specifically nerf the BA. It just kinda happened randomly by a lot of little things. But they add up to serious problems.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/13 15:05:45


 
   
Made in eu
Executing Exarch






The reason I said it's opinion is we are not going to agree - not that I'm dismissing what you're saying.
We're both looking at this book in different ways - you are focussing on what the BA have lost. I'm looking at the amount of things they still have.2 different ways of looking at the same thing.

So why compare against 5th edition?
Compare yourself to other current codex's.

I'm not saying they weren't nerfed from 5th - all assault armies were.
What I'm saying they are not 'bad' now, in 6th.

Breifly - Back to the raven (as an example) - you said the downside was crashing. hammernators survive a crash on a 3+. The other downside you gave is poor reserve rolls. This can happen to anything in reserve.
My points are It's still got more guns than most other fliers and it can fire more as well with POTMS. It also has better armour than most and ceramite hull (iirc).
Get an adl if you are only using it to chase helldrakes - it's cheaper and you'll get more men on the board.

Forcing your opponant to react to what you are doing is the best way to screw over your opponants plans.

And for the record - I play Eldar. I've played them since 2nd ed. I win more than I lose but that means nothing whatsoever.
The point is I like my army and look at the positives, rather than only thinking about the negatives. If you want bad, come play as eldar - we've got lots of 'bad' units

Lets just agree to disagree. It'll take less time.
Good luck with your games

 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Yes, but not all assault armies lost a point of init from their schtick.

I agree the Eldar are a very "peak and valley" codex. They have some great units, and then some total crap. No arguments from me there at all.

I understand your point about the raven. It pays dearly in points for all the advantages that you list. But understand that by putting actual units in the Stormraven you open yourself up to crashing and bad reserve rolls for 500+ points and not just 200+. I have won several games where I won despite my raven showing up late because it was empty. I just had to suck up extra turns of flier fire. Survivable. It would not have been survivable if I had units on it instead of on the battlefield. I avoid poor reserve rolls by not reserving. (Which is another thing about the raven I hate; it must start in reserve, but at least all fliers get hit with this).

I would still rank the Eldar codex ahead of the BA codex from a competitive standpoint, but I agree that the Eldar codex has many unfieldable units. The BA codex has a lot of stuff that seems good but just underwhelms in practice. It is still techncially fieldable, it's just far, far from top tier stuff. For the Eldar codex to be strictly superior than the BA, I feel they have to spam a lot, which I understand that many people don't like. However, I'm sure the Eldar are due for a codex soon. Not so for the BA.

Agreeing to disagree does not actually determine the actual reality of the situation. There is only one reality. Either the BA codex can compete using the features you listed or it can not. I have played many games with them in 6th edition, as they are my only army and from where I'm sitting, the mobility scheme is not cutting it against good opponents.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/02/13 16:03:58


 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Right - now you're arguing with agreeing to disagree.

OK so we go back to the storm raven (again)
I say 'It's better than a lot of other fliers - it has more guns, can fire more guns, has better armour, can drop dreadnoughts right where you don't want them, it got buffed in 6th as it became a flier and reserves were boosted to a 3+ on turn two.'

So now you tell me its bad now because you roll poorly for reserves.
Earlier you told me mathhammer means you can't win against another dex.
So by your reasoning, statistically, your storm raven should turn up turn 2, two out of three times, so I don't see that argument as anything to make me change my mind. I agree it's expensive, but it's also effective.

How are eldar more comp than BA? I've not heard that one before.

Ok, a scenario for you.

Fire dragons on an adl, with a quad gun. 3 x 3 scatter walkers and a farseer with them.Pathfinders behind the adl as well(which is a fairly common set up). In drops a fragnought and a baal pred. What do the eldar do?

Answer
Spoiler:
Die. The Fire dragon exarch might remove some hull points from one of those, maybe even kill it. The other one crisps the dragons. The walkers can't penetrate the front armour of either and the farseers probably cast fortune - which does nothing as the flamers remove both the cover save and the armour save. The pathfinders can't do much apart from hoping to rend and they can't run as they'll still get burnt next turn. so those two units just took out about 400 pts and all the anti flier the eldar can bring, bar forgeworld. And then mop up next turn as nothing can kill them there now. The Storm Raven can now do what it likes even if arrives late


What specific units make the eldar better than the BA?
The BA should be eldars worst nightmare. They are marines, that are as fast as the eldar, their vehicles have better shooting and they win in assault against anything bar harlequins - and the harlies are made for fragnoughts and baals to kill with fire.

Actually don't answer that, I'm past caring.

Again, good luck with your games.




 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Alright. Good enough.

I might add there is no way to "drop in" a Baal pred, though.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






I meant outflank or scout move.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/13 18:26:04


 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The BA may be good against Eldar. I have actually managed a winning record vs Eldar. (Doesn't make up for my 1-alot vs CSM) I mean I think Eldar played against 1000 enemies using spam lists of their good stuff will win more games than BA and their overpriced toys vs the same 1000 enemies. More competitive is not limited to heads up.

I might add that at least where I play, I can't get a Baal flamer predator anywhere close to juicy Eldar targets without it being fragged in some manner. I stopped trying to be cute, and my record vs Eldar improved.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/13 18:34:43


 
   
 
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