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I was just looking through the topics on Warriors of Chaos. Most people feel is it a nerf over all for the army since they tend to be over powered. I play High Elves and rumors have them being updated around April or May. So since I just recently started collecting my High Elves I was wondering exactly what is over powered in the book? I'm asking because I don't want to collect miniatures now that will be useless in 3 months time. Most of my purchases so far have been because I think the models are cool. I don't much experience with Fantasy so I can't sit here and tell what's really over the top.

Teclis.

 Sasori wrote:
Teclis.

Seconding this.

WOC players who think it's a nerf... bah screw them it's more balanced and we got some pretty good stuff too!

As for highelves, awesome magic.. and the allways strike first!
+ rerolls to hit :3

Weak on shooting, slaughter at cc
(depending what you field and what you meet)

Also, what the two above said ^

Teclis, Book of Hoeth, and magic in general.

Aside from that, the book is fairly average.

Pretty much Teclis and the Book.

Otherwise, the book is pretty reasonable.

I expect Teclis will get royally destroyed, but the rest of the book will see an improvement. Though there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. I shall feast upon sweet sweet tears without shame.

I would expect Banner of the World Dragon to also be in some way modified/addressed. I don't necessarily think its overpowered, per se, but do think it contributes to some boring death starr-y builds.

 Red_Zeke wrote:
I would expect Banner of the World Dragon to also be in some way modified/addressed. I don't necessarily think its overpowered, per se, but do think it contributes to some boring death starr-y builds.

Phoenix Guard, Teclis, BotWD.

Pretty typical really.

i don't mind Book of Hoeth too much as it's 100 pts, so I feel its price balances it out a bit.

But yeah, Teclis is really powerful, especially considering he can fit in a 2000pt game...

Their 3 different 15pt Special troops are really powerful at killing stuff as well (well, 2 are), but I wouldn't count as over-powered as you can't really spam all 3 and like all elves, they're fairly squishy (well, 2 are). Like others have said, it's reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if OP is concerned w/ the HE update rumored in a couple months, I wouldn't hold off on buying anything b/c you think it'll be nerfed. Sometimes nerfed units are still viable, as they're really just balanced.

For example, I won't be surprised if Teclis gets a pts increase (but that's it) and some HE items are removed/replaced by others and core becomes cheaper and the 15pt Specials maybe get a rule/equipment buff but a stat nerf/balance and there are some new powerful monsters to take up the Rare slot , etc etc. Basically, if you're prepping for the update, I'd recommend just not buying anything yet lol. Though I definitely think Shadow Warriors are due to get a big improvement... But I won't suggest you to buy them!

As said by everybody teclis is really OP. I fought an enemy that bunkered him in a unit and threw him in a tower. It gets pretty annoying when you see the dude throwing out 'lore of life' spells irresistibly and getting toughness 7 high elves in so many fights. Not only that but he was regrowing dead swordmasters too (also irresistibly i think). After a point it's super lame and you just want to beat the sh*t out of your opponent for using him esp. if they bunkered him in a tower inside of another unit.

I totally forgot about Teclis! I can see why he would be considered Over Powered. Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm going to hold off on buying anything until the new book, but this gives me a better perspective on what to expect. I'm hoping Phoenix Guard will still be viable since I love the looks of them, but we'll see.

I wouldn't wait and see with gw. Your better off buying now and just running it. Prices will increase with either the update or the yearly increase, so it's better to get what you want to paint while you can and risk it being "nerfed" than to pay more for it later. Just my opinion though. Basically, I'd say expect to see prices most people have to be viable, but not auto includes and things no one has to become auto includes.

I wouldn't be surprised if sword masters got a small nerf, since they're pretty much auto includes. I'd also think that bowmen and their other core unit might see a bit more action since no one uses them now.

Don't listen too hard to people saying 'x' or 'y' is over powered or useless if the points cost got a slight bump.
People over-react to changes to what they were used to.
From what I can see the level of change in the WoC is not totally overwhelming.
Also, surely when you collect an army there may be bits you do or don;t include in each build. It is a fluid thing, not all about min/max.

There's also a hell of a lot of unknown when it comes to army revision. People like to assume that there's a simple pattern where the good stuff gets worse and the bad stuff gets better, but it isn't true. Looking at the recent Empire revision, the best stuff in the old book, Warrior Priests, Halberdiers and the Steam Tank, are still the best stuff. Other marginal stuff like ranged troops and flagellants were actually made worse. The only really powerful option in the old book that really copped the nerfhammer was the mortar.

And there's an even bigger unknown with the High Elves, and that's with magic. While the general trend has been to more balanced, less outrageous books than before, they haven't revised any of the really powerful, magic heavy armies yet (Lizardmen, High Elves, Dark Elves, DoC). There's a weak but noticeable trend in the new books to bump up the power of magic, so there's a chance GW might retain or possibly even increase the power of High Elf magic.

And there's an even bigger unknown with the High Elves, and that's with magic. While the general trend has been to more balanced, less outrageous books than before, they haven't revised any of the really powerful, magic heavy armies yet (Lizardmen, High Elves, Dark Elves, DoC).

Any of them? WoC was considered one of the strongest contenders due the Tzeentch Magic, as well as VC with their heavy summoning armies.

The big thing is they are removing things that manipulate or generally drastically increase the power of the magic phase right now, while making the spells themselves more useful. Hence I expect we'll see Teclis' miscast resistance and cupped hands of the old ones go away, but we'll also see the appearance of more bound spells and other things to do besides fish for irresistible on as many dice as possible.

I'm not sure what comments you were reading to think the WoC book was nerfed, but no matter....

As for models, just get the core until the book comes out and then choose from there.

While you are about it, you may as well pick up Teclis as the chances are he will be useable

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Any of them? WoC was considered one of the strongest contenders due the Tzeentch Magic, as well as VC with their heavy summoning armies.

Tzeentch was powerful, but I think that was largely in combination with the other powerful elements of the list. I don't think it was ever anything like Teclis or super-Slann, which really is a case of "well you just tell me what you're going to do in this magic phase, and I'll just sit here punching myself in the nuts".

 Red Comet wrote:
I totally forgot about Teclis!

/thread

Any units that has a big play in the codex will get the nerf bat. Just look at the WoC and see what units got moved to the back line of the dex. I would have to say in the HE dex we are going to see White lion drop because so many people run white lions. If you drop them to the back, that means people are going to have to replace/buy new prodect in order to play. That might not get a huge dent but the unit will be affected in some way because of how strong it is. I myself love the model and the unit and run 63 of them in groups of 3x21.

Also to note from both sides of the hobby ie 40k and warhammer. I have been seeing a trend of brining in a new big toy and with the release of WoC. I saw the same thing happen, so I would expect a big toy to enter play in the rare section. Personally they need a better warmachine but thats my two cents.

Also I am seeing area of effect models/items in both games. So we could see something like that in the new HE dex. I personally am sick of seeing a new dex to balance an already un balanced system. Side note of 40 bucks for a codex is a problem GW and I hope that is not the case with the high elf dex.

Anybody want to toss on the cost of the new WoC codex just to back that statement up I just made?

Tarval wrote:
Any units that has a big play in the codex will get the nerf bat. Just look at the WoC and see what units got moved to the back line of the dex. I would have to say in the HE dex we are going to see White lion drop because so many people run white lions. If you drop them to the back, that means people are going to have to replace/buy new prodect in order to play. That might not get a huge dent but the unit will be affected in some way because of how strong it is. I myself love the model and the unit and run 63 of them in groups of 3x21.

It's not a hard and fast rule. Look at the Empire book, the only really strong unit that got genuinely nerfed was the mortar. The other stuff that people took lots of like halberdiers, warrior priests and steam tanks weren't nerfed. Halberdiers were made a point expensive but they're still the best infantry, and that point increase is offset by the price drop Warrior Priests got, who got better. The steam tank was changed, and probably made better over all.

If someone had followed that logic in preparing an Empire book for the new edition, and loaded up on rubbish stuff in the hope it'd be awesome in the new book, they'd have a load of spearmen, handgunners, and pistoliers. And if they'd done that, they'd be looking at an army that's just as mediocre as it was when they bought it.

In some books some specific stuff that was obviously overpowered, like Chosen, were always going to take a hit, but there's no guarantee that hit will make them useless. They're still a decent unit.

So looking at the High Elf book, about the only thing you can say is that Teclis will not be nearly as powerful, or at least not as cheap as he is now. And it is very likely there'll be an effort made to make the core stuff worthwhile. but that's about it, everything else really is guess work.

I suspect the price of the WoC is a reflection of the goblin index.

Goblin index?

The Book only becomes OTT when you take it along with the Banner of Sorcery, on it's own it's just fine.

Teclis and multiple S8 Banishments are about the only things that are wrong with HE.

Teclis. Banner of the World dragon.

The rest just needs to have its points modified. What is funny is in Fantasy The 7th edition books are overpowered not the 8th.

Teclis and the book need some balancing. My biggest issue with the book being redone is that we'll end up with only 9-10 magic items like all the other new books, which means that HE having cheaper items is pretty much gone as we'll have to use the BRB prices for common items.

Items I can't live without:
Talisman of Saph
Folariaths Robes
Silver Wand
Vambraces
Guardian Phoenix
Armor of Caledor
Banner of Sorcery

That right there is 7 items, and I doubt they will all make it.

If anything there are more items for HE that need buffing than need nerfs. Lion chariots, archers, shadow warriors, reavers, silver helms and bolt throwers all need something to make them worth taking in balanced lists.

If you have the time to read the HE site conversation

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38960&sid=b88de10922914e036e2ad8bab5a0a2cd

There is some talk of a buff cart coming, and flying eagle chariot.

Consensus also seems to be a few new units will come outside this.

I'm in the same boat, want to start HE but waiting for the update. Have ordered 10 dragon princes because the models are so nice. Otherwise if I'm waiting long enough and want something to paint ill go Phoenix guard as they will surely remain a viable anvil.

You can rely on magic items being depleted and the toning down of Teclis. Pretty much everything else is up in the air. Its not like the book has units that are just hated like 7th edition bloodletters.

Bloodletters are still Bloodletters. They lost 1S, gained 1 armor, had their KB shifted to their sword, and gained 5BS(???). The big thing is they are 1/6th more expensive than they were. But if you see a horde of Bloodletters, you're still going to crap your pants.