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Situation 1: Wraiths are never slowed by difficult terrain. So a unit of wraiths charge through difficult terrain still rolls only 2d6 to charge. However, do they strike at initiative 1 or 2?

Situation 2: Wraiths are with a destroyer lord and they charge through difficult terrain. They roll 3d6 because of him. Are they all initiative 1 or just the lord?

Situation 3: Wraiths and Destro lord charge a unit partially in terrain. As long as the lord can get in base contact with a model out of terrain would they roll 2d6 for charge or 3d6?

Situation 1 and 2:

Q: Do models that ignore difficult terrain when moving or charging
still fight at Initiative step 1 if they charge through difficult terrain?
(p22)
A: Yes.

Situation 3:
If the Lord is not the closest model, and the 2D6 roll is high enough to get him into base contact (if possible, by the time you get to him there may not be any room) without going through difficult terrain, 2D6.

I agree with Mr. HJ.

Ditto what they said.

 Happyjew wrote:
Situation 1 and 2:

Q: Do models that ignore difficult terrain when moving or charging
still fight at Initiative step 1 if they charge through difficult terrain?
(p22)
A: Yes.

Situation 3:
If the Lord is not the closest model, and the 2D6 roll is high enough to get him into base contact (if possible, by the time you get to him there may not be any room) without going through difficult terrain, 2D6.

So.. they are never slowed by difficult terrain but still affected by it?

So says the FAQ.

 Mannahnin wrote:
So says the FAQ.

Here comes the fun part and why that faq can be thrown out.

Wraiths dont ignore difficult terrain. They are just never slowed by it. The special rule isn't wraiths ignore difficult terrain.

As for striking at initiative step 1. Page 2 of the rulebook mentions initiative with a direct correlation to speed. So if a model has a special rule where it is never slowed... how can it be reduced to initiative step 1?

Splitting a hair here but the argument is there.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
So says the FAQ.

Here comes the fun part and why that faq can be thrown out.

Wraiths dont ignore difficult terrain. They are just never slowed by it. The special rule isn't wraiths ignore difficult terrain.

As for striking at initiative step 1. Page 2 of the rulebook mentions initiative with a direct correlation to speed. So if a model has a special rule where it is never slowed... how can it be reduced to initiative step 1?

Splitting a hair here but the argument is there.

no because charging through difficult terrain confers 2 penalties, 1 movement is slowed, 2 you strike at I1, just because you are given permission to ignore (or never be slowed by) the first penalty does not make you immune to the 2nd, due to the permissive ruleset.

 Happyjew wrote:
Situation 3:
If the Lord is not the closest model, and the 2D6 roll is high enough to get him into base contact (if possible, by the time you get to him there may not be any room) without going through difficult terrain, 2D6.

I disagree, the rules say the following regarding the situation:

"If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain, the unit must make a Difficult Terrain test" Pg. 22

"If a unit has models that roll differently for their charge range, the whole unit must charge at the speed of the slowest model." Pg. 21

Assuming the Lord isn't using his jump ability to assault, I believe you roll 2d6 for the wraiths, an entirely separate 3d6 subtract highest for the lord, and then use whichever is lower of those 2 results to make your charge.

This applies even if the lord himself doesn't go into the terrain, so long as models from the unit have done so.

 Tomb King wrote:
As for striking at initiative step 1. Page 2 of the rulebook mentions initiative with a direct correlation to speed.

No it doesn't, so don't make stuff like this up. page This (Initiative) represents the swiftness of a creature's reactions.. No correlation to 'speed' is given. Swiftness of reactions is not speed.

 Tomb King wrote:
So if a model has a special rule where it is never slowed... how can it be reduced to initiative step 1?

It is pretty obvious to everyone who has read the rules that "slowed" refers to the fact that normally, models make difficult terrain checks that 'slow' them down.
Page 90, Difficult Terrain goes even as far as explicitly say it: Even if the distance rolled is too short for any of the models to reach the difficult terrain, the unit is still slowed down as described above. .

Examples that use exactly same wording as Wraiths have can be found on page 14 "Run" Running movement is not slowed by difficult terrain , Page 23 Pile in These (Pile In) moves follow the same rules as moving charging models, except that they are not slowed by difficult terrain. .
You can also find same wording on Falling back, Consolidation, Bikes, Cavalry, Vehicles etc.

 Tomb King wrote:
Splitting a hair here but the argument is there.

No, the argument is not there. That argument has zero basis on rules and is completely based on deliberately misinterpreting rules to gain advantage.

And for some reason, it seems that argument is always brought by Necron players who try to argue that "Wraiths hit at their normal Initiative", when no-one has ever made that argument for Bikes, which are never slowed by difficult terrain either.

All texts in orange are direct rules quotations.

Luide wrote:
That argument has zero basis on rules and is completely based on deliberately misinterpreting rules to gain advantage.

Not Necessarily.

They may or may not deliberately be misinterpreting rules to gain advantage.

They may be confusing 40k game rules with other games "Initiative", like pathfinder or D&D where Initiative measures how "Fast" your character is, and if you have a lower initiative you are slower than a character with a higher initiative.

It has no merit in 40K, but I can see how it can be confusing.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
Assuming the Lord isn't using his jump ability to assault, I believe you roll 2d6 for the wraiths, an entirely separate 3d6 subtract highest for the lord, and then use whichever is lower of those 2 results to make your charge.

This applies even if the lord himself doesn't go into the terrain, so long as models from the unit have done so.

If the Lord and the Wraiths are one unit, why would you make two rolls? A single unit gets a single roll for charge distance.

As DS quoted, "If a unit has models that roll differently for their charge range, the whole unit must charge at the speed of the slowest model" (BRB 21). I think this would mean that, if a Lord is with Wraiths and they charge into cover, the whole unit rolls 3D6 and takes the lowest.

Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:
Assuming the Lord isn't using his jump ability to assault, I believe you roll 2d6 for the wraiths, an entirely separate 3d6 subtract highest for the lord, and then use whichever is lower of those 2 results to make your charge.

This applies even if the lord himself doesn't go into the terrain, so long as models from the unit have done so.

If the Lord and the Wraiths are one unit, why would you make two rolls? A single unit gets a single roll for charge distance.

As DS quoted, "If a unit has models that roll differently for their charge range, the whole unit must charge at the speed of the slowest model" (BRB 21). I think this would mean that, if a Lord is with Wraiths and they charge into cover, the whole unit rolls 3D6 and takes the lowest.

Only if the Lord would have to move through the difficult terrain. If the Lord will not be affected by the terrain then you roll 3d6. So for example (excuse my poor drawing):

S......|......W....W
S......|......W....W....L
S......|......W....W
S......|......W....W

S = Space marines
W = Wraith
L = Lord
| = area terrain boundary
.. = 2"

If the charge roll is 8", the Lord does not have sufficient distance to get into the terrain and as such does not require a difficult terrain roll. However, had the charge result been 12", then since the Lord is charging throough difficult terrain, you would have to roll 3D6.

All correct, except for no3 where:

If the charging models could reach an enemy model that's in terrain, providing they move in a straight line, they must roll for difficult terrain.

You can position your whole unit so this doesn't happen in certain circumstances.

My understanding is that if the potential for difficult terrain exists, you have to roll it. So in the above situation the unit would roll 3D6 taking two. You don't get to roll 2, see what you get and decide to roll a third at that point. (would make sense however).

I think the only situation MIGHT get out of rolling 3D6 is if the Lord is if their are enough enemy models for the lord to charge without going into terrain regardless of what is rolled and potential blocking.

Just remember, jump infantry using their packs in the assault phase do not go through terrain, they go over it.

JI using their packs to assault only take a dangerous test, which does not quantify going at initiative 1.

Since the lord does not have wraithflight, the wraiths would not be able to benefit from it in this situation. It is no different from attaching a cryptek to deathmarks and not being able to deep strike.

Simple solution? Use your jump packs to assault, always.

I would much rather use jump pack movement to move within 2" of the enemy unit to guarantees a successful charge.

I thought if you started or ended your move in difficult terrain even with a jump pack you were at Init 1. Is that not true?

Not if you have grenades or use the jump pack to assault.

Mythra wrote:
I thought if you started or ended your move in difficult terrain even with a jump pack you were at Init 1. Is that not true?

No; the rule requires you to *move* through the terrain. If you land in it, having just moved over it, then you are not dropped

 Kevin949 wrote:
Just remember, jump infantry using their packs in the assault phase do not go through terrain, they go over it.

JI using their packs to assault only take a dangerous test, which does not quantify going at initiative 1.

Since the lord does not have wraithflight, the wraiths would not be able to benefit from it in this situation. It is no different from attaching a cryptek to deathmarks and not being able to deep strike.

Simple solution? Use your jump packs to assault, always.

So if I move 6" and charge 2d6 with jump packs they are never at initiative 1 from terrain?

 Tomb King wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
Just remember, jump infantry using their packs in the assault phase do not go through terrain, they go over it.

JI using their packs to assault only take a dangerous test, which does not quantify going at initiative 1.

Since the lord does not have wraithflight, the wraiths would not be able to benefit from it in this situation. It is no different from attaching a cryptek to deathmarks and not being able to deep strike.

Simple solution? Use your jump packs to assault, always.

So if I move 6" and charge 2d6 with jump packs they are never at initiative 1 from terrain?

Correct.

Is the "Lord" in sit 3 a Destroyer Lord as well?

You specified Destroyer Lord in Sit 2, I assumed that Sit 3 was a regular Lord.

If it is a regular Lord, you would still roll for difficult terrain if he enters terrain, even if the Wraiths "jump" over it.

40k-noob wrote:
Is the "Lord" in sit 3 a Destroyer Lord as well?

You specified Destroyer Lord in Sit 2, I assumed that Sit 3 was a regular Lord.

If it is a regular Lord, you would still roll for difficult terrain if he enters terrain, even if the Wraiths "jump" over it.

Good catch.. meant destroyer lord. Now code name Destro

Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:
Assuming the Lord isn't using his jump ability to assault, I believe you roll 2d6 for the wraiths, an entirely separate 3d6 subtract highest for the lord, and then use whichever is lower of those 2 results to make your charge.

This applies even if the lord himself doesn't go into the terrain, so long as models from the unit have done so.

If the Lord and the Wraiths are one unit, why would you make two rolls? A single unit gets a single roll for charge distance.

As DS quoted, "If a unit has models that roll differently for their charge range, the whole unit must charge at the speed of the slowest model" (BRB 21). I think this would mean that, if a Lord is with Wraiths and they charge into cover, the whole unit rolls 3D6 and takes the lowest.

Because the rules demand you to determine which roll is slowest and you can't always reliably do that just by looking at the rules for how to roll.

For example, if you have a unit of models that get to re-roll their charge distance, and an attached IC who gets to roll 3d6 then drop the lowest, which of those is slowest?

The only reliable way to obey the rules which tell you how to handle models with differing charge speeds for all situations is to roll each speed separately and use the slowest result.