Switch Theme:

Broken Allies  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot




Aviano, Italy

This really ruins allies for me.... I guess it would depend on the group you play with on whether this would happen to you... They are more of a liability than they are worth.... Leave it to these guys to break an already broken game lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEQUeD-Rl7Q

   
Made in us
Deacon




Eugene, OR

This certainly needs an FAQ or errata, otherwise things are just way too limited.

2k
3300


 
   
Made in ca
Lethal Lhamean





somewhere in the webway

i dunno. something just strikes me as "off" about those guys. every time i see a video they do, its about exploiting some rule, and finding some loophole or other shenanigan to beat your opponent through silly rules lawyering. dont these guys have anything better to do?

Melevolence wrote:

On a side note: Your profile pic both makes me smile and terrified

 Savageconvoy wrote:
.. Crap your profile picture is disturbing....




 
   
Made in us
1st Lieutenant




Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

 DarthSpader wrote:
i dunno. something just strikes me as "off" about those guys. every time i see a video they do, its about exploiting some rule, and finding some loophole or other shenanigan to beat your opponent through silly rules lawyering. dont these guys have anything better to do?


Seeing as the show is called "Cheese Hunters" and they try to find as many broken and OP things as they can, I would say that they are doing their job hahahaha

If I had any respect for these guys in regards to Sci-Fi anymore, I would care more about this video. Unfortunately, I don't after they screwed so many things with the IG codex up. I still watch them for historicals though.

DS:90S++G++M--B++I++Pww211++D++A+++/areWD-R+++T(T)DM+

Miniature Projects:
6mm/15mm Cold War

15/20mm World War 2 (using Flames of War or Battlegroup Overlord/Kursk)

6mm Napoleonic's (Prussia, Russia, France, Britain) 
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Peoria IL

This is just stupid... you aren't being changed by the allied table, how your models interact is. "You" are both the main force AND the allied detachment.

Doesn't work

DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+
Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 59-4-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 Primaris and Little Buddies 7-0-0

QM Templates here, HH army builder app for both v1 and v2
One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners 
   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot




Aviano, Italy

Yeah, I am really leary to take allies now in case someone wants to pull this BS.... I have already had somwhat bad experiences with taking allies as it is.... and now this! lol
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Sigh. Not only are they rules lawyers they're also illiterate rules lawyers. The allies rule says "units from your army treat...". Counting who has units near an objective is not a "unit from your army", therefore you do not treat allies of convenience as enemy models.

If my opponent ever tried to play it this way I'd tell them to STFU and stop cheating, and pack my stuff up and never play against them if they refused to drop the issue.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar






I had a guy tell me this at the local shop tell me about how allies of convenience work based on this video and that anything below battle brothers was worthless.
Could anyone explain to me how to counter said argument?

40k: IG "The Poli-Aima 1st" ~3500pts (and various allies)
KHADOR
X-Wing (Empire Strong)
 Ouze wrote:
I can't wait to buy one of these, open the box, peek at the sprues, and then put it back in the box and store it unpainted for years.
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Happygrunt wrote:
Could anyone explain to me how to counter said argument?


Tell them to read the book and stop cheating (see previous post).

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in nz
Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar





New Zealand

 Peregrine wrote:
Sigh. Not only are they rules lawyers they're also illiterate rules lawyers. The allies rule says "units from your army treat...". Counting who has units near an objective is not a "unit from your army", therefore you do not treat allies of convenience as enemy models.

If my opponent ever tried to play it this way I'd tell them to STFU and stop cheating, and pack my stuff up and never play against them if they refused to drop the issue.


I agree 100% with this, if someone try this on you, then he really is a WAAC kind of player and probably not worth the time.

Allies of convenience can score and deny, desperate cant, simple as that.
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Beasts of War are just idiots. They can't read the rules properly to be rules lawers. Look up their flamer video for a very good example.

They make me cringe and they give RAW players a bad name.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User






HAHAHAHAHA I really can't think of anything to say about that video.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

I watched it for about two minutes and turned it off. People like that give me a headache.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in my
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

We had an interesting "discussion" about this over at The Tyranid Hive if anyone wants to check it out: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Tactics&thread=42300&page=1

Personally I believe some of the stuff is right and some of it's wrong. Things like denying an objective to your allies and being forced to fight if multi-charged are justified in the rules and it makes sense that in the middle of a close quarters battle one guy might accidentally attack their allies (that they've been trained to fight mercilessly their entire life, most likely) and spark off a conflict between the two, in fact I've always thought that was the case.

Things like denying their own objectives and being counted as enemies for VP purposes are ridiculous, as it's only your units that treat your allies as enemies not the players themselves.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar






So I am watching the video now and, honestly, this is making my head hurt. These guys are wrong because your army treats them as enemies but you don't right?

40k: IG "The Poli-Aima 1st" ~3500pts (and various allies)
KHADOR
X-Wing (Empire Strong)
 Ouze wrote:
I can't wait to buy one of these, open the box, peek at the sprues, and then put it back in the box and store it unpainted for years.
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Your other units treat them like enemies, rather than being "friendly models" or "friendly units" for purposes of benefitting from each other's special rules. But they're still units in your army.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

The Beasts of war guys have incorrect rules assessments most of the time.

I can not recall a video of theirs that I have seen that did not have at least one rule being played incorrectly.

The thing about allies of convenience is that, as others have said, only units in your army treat them as enemy units. You do not, therefore an allied detachment will only deny objectives if your opponent is trying to cap the objective. Your units could be on an objective and they will still capture that objective, even if there is an allies of convenience unit within 3 inches of that objective.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna





If anyone tried to pull that crap on me, I would have them read the rules out loud to me. Since the exact wording is "Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted, with psychic powers or have templates or blast markers placed over them."

After they read that aloud, I would point out that the rules state that he cannot target the unit.

It doesn't say "Units in the controlling players army"

That should shut them down pretty quick.

Meks is da best! Dey makes go fasta and mo dakka!  
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar






 Mannahnin wrote:
Your other units treat them like enemies, rather than being "friendly models" or "friendly units" for purposes of benefitting from each other's special rules. But they're still units in your army.


Doesn't that mean that you still do the attacks in combat with them as they are not targeting them with psychic powers or shooting them?

(For the record, I think BoW is completely wrong, but I want clarification)

40k: IG "The Poli-Aima 1st" ~3500pts (and various allies)
KHADOR
X-Wing (Empire Strong)
 Ouze wrote:
I can't wait to buy one of these, open the box, peek at the sprues, and then put it back in the box and store it unpainted for years.
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

It's an amusing thought; the allies rules explicitly forbid charging your allies, but don't expressly forbid directing attacks at them in a multiassault.

That's funny. Thankfully the assault results section uses the word "opponents" rather than "enemy units' when it tells you that if all of your opponents are dead, you can Consolidate.

I think BoW are very wrong, but it can't hurt to shoot an email or two to gamefaqs@gwplc.com about it.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
Calculating Commissar






 Mannahnin wrote:
It's an amusing thought; the allies rules explicitly forbid charging your allies, but don't expressly forbid directing attacks at them in a multiassault.

That's funny. Thankfully the assault results section uses the word "opponents" rather than "enemy units' when it tells you that if all of your opponents are dead, you can Consolidate.

I think BoW are very wrong, but it can't hurt to shoot an email or two to gamefaqs@gwplc.com about it.


Guess I better re-read my 6th edition rulebook then.

I will shoot off an email tomorrow, but thanks for clearing this up for me. Goodnight.

40k: IG "The Poli-Aima 1st" ~3500pts (and various allies)
KHADOR
X-Wing (Empire Strong)
 Ouze wrote:
I can't wait to buy one of these, open the box, peek at the sprues, and then put it back in the box and store it unpainted for years.
 
   
Made in de
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot




Aviano, Italy

The part they are right about is the pile in moves 'toward enemy models' amd since the allies were not charged (by your army) when combat was initiated. They show how it works on the video... It actually seems pretty legit... And broken...
   
Made in my
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

strengthofthedragon2 wrote:
The part they are right about is the pile in moves 'toward enemy models' amd since the allies were not charged (by your army) when combat was initiated. They show how it works on the video... It actually seems pretty legit... And broken...


How is being able to, every now and then, force allies to fight each other any more broken than Necrons taking 12 Flyers? Or anyone allying with Eldar and shutting down all of your opponent's psykers? Flamers and Screamers spam?

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in dk
Servoarm Flailing Magos






Metalica

I sort of like how they start fighting eachother if they share a battle.

It's a bit orcs and goblins. Don't have them fighting close to eachother, because they will kill eachother.

 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 PrinceRaven wrote:
How is being able to, every now and then, force allies to fight each other any more broken than Necrons taking 12 Flyers? Or anyone allying with Eldar and shutting down all of your opponent's psykers? Flamers and Screamers spam?


Because there's a difference between "overpowered" and "breaking the game by rules lawyering something that is blatantly against RAI and probably against RAW as well".

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Death-Dealing Devastator




"Units in your army treat ..."

Has no effect whatsoever on the objectives rules. Main force and allied force are both 'your units' within your army. Its only for units that have special rules etc. Lazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mannahnin wrote:
It's an amusing thought; the allies rules explicitly forbid charging your allies, but don't expressly forbid directing attacks at them in a multiassault.


This is interesting. Although you cannot charge them, the charge action disables having to stay 1" away from enemy models. You can't multi-charge into an ally of convenience (because you can't charge them) however you can pile-in...

Pile-in is a move just like a charge, that lifts the 1" enemy models rule. So it might be feasible to pull it off. I'm not quite sure why you would want to though. I suppose you could help trigger combat tactics and stuff like that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/12 11:03:31


White Scars 2000 points
Guard 3000~ points
Grey Knights 875 points 
   
Made in de
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot




Aviano, Italy

rossatdi wrote:
"Units in your army treat ..."

Has no effect whatsoever on the objectives rules. Main force and allied force are both 'your units' within your army. Its only for units that have special rules etc. Lazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mannahnin wrote:
It's an amusing thought; the allies rules explicitly forbid charging your allies, but don't expressly forbid directing attacks at them in a multiassault.


This is interesting. Although you cannot charge them, the charge action disables having to stay 1" away from enemy models. You can't multi-charge into an ally of convenience (because you can't charge them) however you can pile-in...

Pile-in is a move just like a charge, that lifts the 1" enemy models rule. So it might be feasible to pull it off. I'm not quite sure why you would want to though. I suppose you could help trigger combat tactics and stuff like that.

Good call! It could be used to an advantage and would prevent a sweeping advance since the enemy would still be locked in CC.... but to use this tactic once would be grounds to use it in a whole game and it may not turn out pretty depending on which allies are taken...

   
Made in my
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Adelaide, South Australia

rossatdi wrote:
Pile-in is a move just like a charge, that lifts the 1" enemy models rule. So it might be feasible to pull it off. I'm not quite sure why you would want to though. I suppose you could help trigger combat tactics and stuff like that.



Since pile ins are forced to the nearest unengaged enemy model, it doesn't matter whether you want to do it or not.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.

"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

BoW are not Beasts of War; rather, they're Brits Often Wrong.

These guys are wrong more often than I am, and that's saying something! I quit watching their videos a long time ago, except for their What's in the Box segments. I like their actual miniature hobby coverage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/12 19:47:44


DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in de
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot




Aviano, Italy

I messed up my quote above... Dumb iPhone...
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: