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Say the Doom drops in in his drop pod next to one or more FMCs in swoop mode. Does his spirit leech affect those FMCs?

Let me know what you guys think,,
Thisisnotpancho

thisisnotpancho wrote:
Say the Doom drops in in his drop pod next to one or more FMCs in swoop mode. Does his spirit leech affect those FMCs?

Let me know what you guys think,,
Thisisnotpancho

Does the Doom's ability hit automatically?

If so read this FaQ for the answer.

"Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas." FaQ Page 3

40k FAQ found here

No, it doesn't hit at all.
Yes, it affects Swooping FMCs.

At the beginning of every Shooting phase, including the foe's, every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'tai must take a Leadership test on3D6. If the test is failed the unit suffers a single wound for each point they failed by, with no armour saves allowed. (pg. 58, "Spirit Leech")

I would read this as it does affect FMCs.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, it doesn't hit at all.
Yes, it affects Swooping FMCs.

Actually does the Dooms ability need to roll to hit units?

Yes or no?

It doesn't matter if it needs to roll to hit, it's not a shooting attack, it's a special rule. Hard to Hit only affects shooting attacks, therefore FMCs are still affected as they fit the requirement of being an enemy non-vehicle unit within 6 inches.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It doesn't matter if it needs to roll to hit, it's not a shooting attack, it's a special rule. Hard to Hit only affects shooting attacks, therefore FMCs are still affected as they fit the requirement of being an enemy non-vehicle unit within 6 inches.

Actually if you actually read the FaQ I posted, then you would know the FaQ affects "any attacks that use blast markers, templates, etc..." Not just shooting attacks.

I have to agree with Deathreaper if the doom is going to be hitting FMC swopping then all arcs from twin linked tesla destrcutors would be able to as well. However it has been ruled that they cannot.

To think how easy it would be to have powers labeled Offensive and Defensive as they are in some collectible card games. Right now the Leech power is "something" that affects models close enough on a failed roll. One could interprete it either way and as such it's only fair to take the more restrictive result and disallow it affecting FMCs.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
No, it doesn't hit at all.
Yes, it affects Swooping FMCs.

Actually does the Dooms ability need to roll to hit units?

Yes or no?

No, and it doesn't automatically hit units either. There's no hit involved.
Do Blessings or Maleditions work on a FMC?

^^^^^^^
The correct answer to his question is: "Doom does none of these because it never hits the target at all." Don't fall into his trap by answering the question the way he wants you to. Just say what you want never feel like you have to answer in a way that people try to force you to.

Spetulhu wrote:
To think how easy it would be to have powers labeled Offensive and Defensive as they are in some collectible card games. Right now the Leech power is "something" that affects models close enough on a failed roll. One could interprete it either way and as such it's only fair to take the more restrictive result and disallow it affecting FMCs.

You just arbitrarily assigned a made up rule to an existing rule in order to justify breaking said rule. Also, claiming that the only way to fairly rule is by siding against the rule affecting FMCs has nothing to do with being fair at all. You are butchering the term for you own personal gain in an attempt to shame people into siding your way as you try to look like you, and those who share your opinion, are taking the high-and-might route. You said that, literally, right after you just advocated cheating by making up a rule to in order to justify your opinion. You are the worst kind of person.

This is how I would treat the 'Doom doesn't affect FMCs' manbaby.
If someone comes up to me and throws a manbaby fit that Doom doesn't affect FMC because they are immune to auto hits AND I still chose to play with them despite them being a manbaby, then according to their own ruling of the rules, they agree to the following three things: 1) Tesla guns only ever do 1 point of damage to FMCs per d6 roll of a 6. The other two wounds are auto hits so they can't affect FMCs under the manbaby ruling of Hard to Hit . 2) Rolling a 2 or 12 on a psychic test doesn't wound a FMC because it is also an auto hit and the manbaby just said that auto wounds don't affect FMC under Hard to Hit rule. 3) FMC are immune to all force of instant death and removing from the game because those count as auto wounds and FMCs can only ever take damage after rolling to hit with a 6 on a d6, according to the manbaby. Now, you will all see that and say that they are auto wounds and not hits. Well, Doom only ever does auto wounds and you said that auto wounds are negated by Hard to Hit.


Now, a normal person would read Hard to Hit and looked at Doom's rules would think:

If the FMC is within 6 inches of Doom when it's ability goes off then it is affected by the power. Nothing in the Hard to Hit rules says that FMC are immune to psychic powers.

The ability says that each enemy must take a Ld test on 3d6. Nothing in the Hard to Hit rule says that FMCs don't take Ld tests.

If the FMC fails the Ld test it takes a wound for each point it failed by. Nothing in Hard to Hit says that FMCs auto pass Ld tests or don't take any kind of damage unless you roll a 6 to hit first.

Is there a general wound allocation process? The Doom's power refers to "units" suffering wounds, not models. I'm just wondering how those wounds are allocated if it is not a shooting attack.

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Is there a general wound allocation process? The Doom's power refers to "units" suffering wounds, not models. I'm just wondering how those wounds are allocated if it is not a shooting attack.

RAW they aren't; the ability doesn't work.
DR is under the (IMO) mistaken impression that you have to use Nova rules to resolve it.

rigeld2 wrote:

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Is there a general wound allocation process? The Doom's power refers to "units" suffering wounds, not models. I'm just wondering how those wounds are allocated if it is not a shooting attack.

RAW they aren't; the ability doesn't work.
DR is under the (IMO) mistaken impression that you have to use Nova rules to resolve it.

I said it was similar to a nova, but treating it as a basic shooting attack is a good way to handle it because then you can actually allocate wounds.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Is there a general wound allocation process? The Doom's power refers to "units" suffering wounds, not models. I'm just wondering how those wounds are allocated if it is not a shooting attack.

RAW they aren't; the ability doesn't work.
DR is under the (IMO) mistaken impression that you have to use Nova rules to resolve it.

I said it was similar to a nova, but treating it as a basic shooting attack is a good way to handle it because then you can actually allocate wounds.

Or you could treat it like the very similar Soul Blaze which would also allow it to allocate wounds and doesn't make it target, cause hits, etc. the fewer assumptions/changes the better, right?

It really has no issues treating it like a shooting attack.

Soulblaze is not similar enough (IMO) to use those rules for Spirit Leech.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It really has no issues treating it like a shooting attack.

Soulblaze is not similar enough (IMO) to use those rules for Spirit Leech.

It really does - you're creating targets where the ability doesn't use them, you're creating hits where the ability doesn't cause them, you're forcing the Doom to only be able to assault units in range of his ability...

Seriously, how is Soul Blaze not similar enough? They're both special rules. They both can generate wounds that require allocation.
You have decided that Spirit Leech must be similar to a Nova and have created an argument to fit that hypothesis, ignoring all other possibilities. Your stance renders Spirit Leech useless against Swooping FMCs when there is absolutely no indication in the Codex that it causes a "hit" at all, let alone one that automatically hits.

Kwosge wrote:If the FMC is within 6 inches of Doom when it's ability goes off then it is affected by the power. Nothing in the Hard to Hit rules says that FMC are immune to psychic powers.

The ability says that each enemy must take a Ld test on 3d6. Nothing in the Hard to Hit rule says that FMCs don't take Ld tests.

If the FMC fails the Ld test it takes a wound for each point it failed by. Nothing in Hard to Hit says that FMCs auto pass Ld tests or don't take any kind of damage unless you roll a 6 to hit first.

I'd just like to point out that Spirit Leech isn't a psychic power, it's a special rule, I've seen people assume it is a psychic power and roll for deny the witch against it, so it's an important distinction.

As far as wound allocation goes, there is no "origin" of the wounds, so I go for random allocation, but it could just as likely be the closest models and needs to be FAQ'd. I'd recommend discussing it with your opponent/TO before the beginning of the game/tournament.

Or you use the precedent set by Soul Blaze and the units controlling player allocates.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It really has no issues treating it like a shooting attack.

Soulblaze is not similar enough (IMO) to use those rules for Spirit Leech.

It really does - you're creating targets where the ability doesn't use them, you're creating hits where the ability doesn't cause them, you're forcing the Doom to only be able to assault units in range of his ability...

Seriously, how is Soul Blaze not similar enough? They're both special rules. They both can generate wounds that require allocation.
You have decided that Spirit Leech must be similar to a Nova and have created an argument to fit that hypothesis, ignoring all other possibilities. Your stance renders Spirit Leech useless against Swooping FMCs when there is absolutely no indication in the Codex that it causes a "hit" at all, let alone one that automatically hits.

Indeed, I would go so far as to say that spirit leech isn't an attack (as it doesn't cause hits), just a special ability that requires every enemy unit within a certain radius to take characteristic test against their leadership (albeit with a specific modifier).

I've got to agree with the 'it can effect FMCs' route. The description of the Spirit Leech special rule (p58 Tyranid Codex) never defines it as an attack or weapon, only that enemies within 6" have to take a leadership test. Therefore the FAQ'ed bit about zooming flyers and SFMC (p3, link to the FAQ posted in an above post) doesn't apply to Spirit Leech, as it only refers to 'weapons' in the question and 'attacks' in the answer; no emphasis on special rules that aren't defiined as attacks or weapons.

That's my take from a RAW standpoint anyway. RAI is another thing entirely, where i'd rather just roll a dice on it than get in an arguement.

Additional clarification - the FAQ also prevents anything that automatically hits from targeting a SFMC, but Spirit Leech doesn't cause hits of any kind, so isn't prevented that way either.

The FAQ prevents:

A) Anything which causes hits but doesn't Snap Fire.
B) Them being targeted by any attack which automatically hits or does not roll to hit, or affects a unit by any means other than Snap Shooting.

The main question as to whether the FAQ on Zooming Flyers and Swooping FMCs prevents things which don't cause "hits" from affecting SFMCs is whether they target, and whether they constitute an "attack". As this is not a defined term in 40k except as regards HtH (which is obviously not the sense in which it is being used here), we have to derive the meaning by implication. From previous discussions, the closest I've seen anyone come to defining what consitutes an "attack" for the purposes of this ruling or for Brotherhood of Psykers is that it causes wounds on models and/or damage to vehicles. If you use this definition, then the Doom would certainly fit in the category of things which aren't allowed to affect Swooping FMCs, except that AFAICR Doom doesn't "target" anything OR cause "hits", which should mean it's one of the only things I can think of which can indeed hurt a SFMC without Snap Shooting or Skyfiring at it.

rigeld2 wrote:
Additional clarification - the FAQ also prevents anything that automatically hits from targeting a SFMC, but Spirit Leech doesn't cause hits of any kind, so isn't prevented that way either.

And as such, doesn't cause grounding tests.

-Matt

As it does not say it hits, targets or that it is even an attack, I'd say it isn't. It's a special rule depicting something more akin to an environmental effect and seems no more of an attack than a dangerous terrain check would be.

It does not require DoM to shoot, use a psy power or attack in any way. It's just a special rule.

Technically the doom's "to hit" roll is the leadership test. All wounds caused are equal to the number you failed by, it doesnt say theyre automatically hit at all.

I see no loopholes for this one. The same wording allows my SAG's double 6 roll to remove Eternal Warrior models since it doesnt "hit" it simply "removes from play"

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Technically the doom's "to hit" roll is the leadership test. All wounds caused are equal to the number you failed by, it doesnt say theyre automatically hit at all.

I see no loopholes for this one. The same wording allows my SAG's double 6 roll to remove Eternal Warrior models since it doesnt "hit" it simply "removes from play"

No, it's not a "technical" to hit at all. There's no to hit roll.