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 RuneGrey wrote:

I've actually found GW's digital codexes to be more of a pain than Warroom, mainly because they keep all of their rules hidden on links in each page instead of just spelling them out. I'd much rather be able to just glance at a page and get the rules right then and there than having to touch individual elements in order to pull up what they do, although things like linking magical items and gifts available from the army list are nice. Just not... $45 nice. If I played more armies than just Warriors of Chaos (and I would like to get back into 40k just to be able to play with friends, my models are all from 2nd edition and barely make up 1000 points at best now) I'd actually find buying more codexes to be prohibitively expensive. (I've considered building a slapdash all Deathwing company list from ebay models for around $150, but even that is pushing my budget nowadays.)

I think the GW digital codexes are almost worth their price. Sure, a lower price would absolutely be more palatable, but they aren't simple PDF conversions of the printed book. Because of this value add, I understand the reasoning for an increased price, though I certainly wish they were lower. Personally, I'd prefer if they did Codex/Digital bundles for $65-70. I'd buy those in a heart beat. That pricing goes into a whole different discussion regarding whether or not they're 'worth' $50. I think, based on current similar publications, they're close. A similarly bound and published graphic novel (I think the Vertigo Hardcovers for Fables, Y the Last Man are a good comparison) are $30, with an arguably similar level of content. I think a price point of $40 for the codexes would be more palatable, but I'm not angry about them at $50, especially considering how nice the Chaos and DA dexes look.

In WarRoom, the Glossary must be an online only thing, as I don't seem to be able to access it offline. Unless I'm using it incorrectly, which is entirely possible.

 cincydooley wrote:
In WarRoom, the Glossary must be an online only thing, as I don't seem to be able to access it offline. Unless I'm using it incorrectly, which is entirely possible.

Are you logged in at all? You can still be "logged in" but offline, and I'm looking at the rules reference right now although my phone has no data.

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
In WarRoom, the Glossary must be an online only thing, as I don't seem to be able to access it offline. Unless I'm using it incorrectly, which is entirely possible.

Are you logged in at all? You can still be "logged in" but offline, and I'm looking at the rules reference right now although my phone has no data.

Haha, It says I need to be online to be logged in. Maybe I'm misunderstanding glossary. I have the reference tab. I think it's the same thing.

 cincydooley wrote:

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
In WarRoom, the Glossary must be an online only thing, as I don't seem to be able to access it offline. Unless I'm using it incorrectly, which is entirely possible.

Are you logged in at all? You can still be "logged in" but offline, and I'm looking at the rules reference right now although my phone has no data.

Haha, It says I need to be online to be logged in. Maybe I'm misunderstanding glossary. I have the reference tab. I think it's the same thing.

Yea, the Reference section has all the rules for Gargossals

 mattyrm wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:


And besides that, I can change something, if pointing out the number of GWs flaws makes people think about what they buy and question GWs actions then as long as I get even one person thinking critically instead of being a apathetic push over then its a win. One day I hope GW will stop acting like dicks and start grasping the money gaining ability that is treating your customers with respect and value. Contrary to popular belief most people that fight and complain about GW dont want the company to fail, in fact they want the exact opposite, they want them to succeed, because we all know GW can be better, and has been better.

If you buy something GW your an apathetic pushover?

No, Im saying question what you buy, understand why it is what it is, and if unfair, then find ways around it (discounters etc). You're an apathetic push over if you blindly buy the stuff and then defend GW like there is nothing wrong, you're akin to grossly fat people that are some how unaware eating fast food is bad.

Wait eating fast food is bad?

Then why does it taste so damn good? I mean at least with a Big Mac, I'm not left with a bad taste in my mouth.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:


And besides that, I can change something, if pointing out the number of GWs flaws makes people think about what they buy and question GWs actions then as long as I get even one person thinking critically instead of being a apathetic push over then its a win. One day I hope GW will stop acting like dicks and start grasping the money gaining ability that is treating your customers with respect and value. Contrary to popular belief most people that fight and complain about GW dont want the company to fail, in fact they want the exact opposite, they want them to succeed, because we all know GW can be better, and has been better.

If you buy something GW your an apathetic pushover?

No, Im saying question what you buy, understand why it is what it is, and if unfair, then find ways around it (discounters etc). You're an apathetic push over if you blindly buy the stuff and then defend GW like there is nothing wrong, you're akin to grossly fat people that are some how unaware eating fast food is bad.

I think this statement highlights two of the primary pieces that even create arguments like this: unfair and wrong.

I think it's entirely inappropriate to look at 'fairness' when it comes to lesiure good pricing. I've never once thought it was "unfair" that Audi's are so much more expensive than Kia's. It is what it is. The manufacturers have determined that they can charge higher prices for Audi's and get the profit margin they're looking for, so they do it. The same goes for GW. I'd guarantee they have accountants and pricing teams that couldn't care less what Warhammer 40k the game is and look at Cost-Benefit analyses and pricing charts. Once they see negative trends with their profits, thats when we'd see changes.

As to the 'wrongness' : I think that directly ties into something being "unfair." One of the funniest things to me is that I'd think folks in the UK would love GW simply because they do produce so much in the UK and don't outsource to China. In that regard, they have to be considered a pretty ethical company, right?

Again, a lot of these are predicated on morality and ethical discussion that, for all intents and purposes, don't apply here, coupled with the fact that so many folks on Dakka are convinced they know how to run GW better than GW does....

 Alfndrate wrote:
Wait eating fast food is bad?

Then why does it taste so damn good? I mean at least with a Big Mac, I'm not left with a bad taste in my mouth.

Quick get this man some help! You live in Ohio! Steak n' Shake man, Steak n' Shake! You have Five Guys also. There are too few meals to consume in our lifetime to be wasted on McDonalds.

Just to post my thoughts, on the "community" here. DakkaDakka has evolved from a GW/40k forum to more of a general tabletop gaming forum. The anti-GW bias can be broken down to four groups.
1. People with legitimate/valid complaints.
2. People with unreasonable complaints.
3. People pushing alternate systems.
4. People who would like to buy an argument.

Don't list trolls because they appear in groups 2 - 4. Though I do feel that the arguing has started to take a nasty turn. HBMC summed it up in another thread, we're starting to sound like a bunch of Xbox vs PS fanboys.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
GW... at least does not deny that new editions of the games are in the works. They may churn new editions out too fast... maybe... but at least they don't try to pull a surprise like that.

They don't deny that they're working on new stuff, but they don't tell us what that new stuff is, or when to expect it.

I don't recall there being any particular secrecy around 4e, but then I wasn't really following D&D at the time. But from my time hanging around the WotC site back when Star Wars Minis and War at Sea were going strong, I do recall WotC having a list up on the site detailing major upcoming releases for the next 12 months.

GW, by contrast... Unless you follow internet rumour-mongering, you have no way of knowing whether the codex you buy today will be obsolete next week.

silent25 wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
Wait eating fast food is bad?

Then why does it taste so damn good? I mean at least with a Big Mac, I'm not left with a bad taste in my mouth.

Quick get this man some help! You live in Ohio! Steak n' Shake man, Steak n' Shake! You have Five Guys also. There are too few meals to consume in our lifetime to be wasted on McDonalds.

Steak n' Shake is garbage almost on par with McDonalds, Five Guys is fantastic however . I've got one within walking distance the McDonalds is a little farther away


But that's another topic.

 cincydooley wrote:
...
As to the 'wrongness' : I think that directly ties into something being "unfair." One of the funniest things to me is that I'd think folks in the UK would love GW simply because they do produce so much in the UK and don't outsource to China. In that regard, they have to be considered a pretty ethical company, right?

Again, a lot of these are predicated on morality and ethical discussion that, for all intents and purposes, don't apply here, coupled with the fact that so many folks on Dakka are convinced they know how to run GW better than GW does....

From 3 pages ago,

 Buzzsaw wrote:
...
It's worth pointing out that GW suffers from deficits that, to my knowledge, no other major game producers suffer from: the nature and extent of their legal overreach, which can fairly be characterized as unethical, possibly going so far as illegal.

The closest correlate would be the incident where PP asked the developer of iBodger to stop development on his app, as they were coming out with their own Warroom app. But taking the app down was the voluntary actions of a fan, not a reaction to a C&D letter.

GW, by contrast, can credibly be described as doing things like: fabricating evidence in a Federal Litigation, subornation of perjury, and abusing the provisions of the DMCA.

Whatever one thinks of Corvus Belli, Privateer Press, Mantic or whatever*, chances are your quarrels with them are based on aesthetics or other game based problems. With GW, there is a credible allegation that they are engaged in systematic abuse of the legal system. It's a whole other level of problem with a corporation.



*Except, of course, Mierce Miniatures, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Putting aside all issues of price or rules sets or customer support, any discussion that veers into questions of ethics cannot avoid the pattern of behavior that GW has engaged in with regards to enforcement of "their" Intellectual Property. A pattern of behavior that can fairly be interpreted to be abusive of their position and improper.

The simple fact is that the allegations against GW are credible and they are serious. While it is entirely appropriate to point out that these remain allegations, it's also fair to point out that (insofar as I am aware) no similar allegations exist against GW's competitors (again, with notable exceptions of MM and C'MoN, but those issues are best discussed elsewhere).

 insaniak wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
GW... at least does not deny that new editions of the games are in the works. They may churn new editions out too fast... maybe... but at least they don't try to pull a surprise like that.

They don't deny that they're working on new stuff, but they don't tell us what that new stuff is, or when to expect it.

White Dwarf was still pushing Assault on Black Reach in the month before the release of 6th edition, which I thought was particularly low. Although you have to assume that any staff in a GW wouldn't be -Edited- enough to sell someone that boxset when they knew that the next version was a few weeks ahead, there would definitely have been the potential for the uninformed to be caught out and make a purchase over the internet.


Edited by insaniak. Please do not circumvent the language filter.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Putting aside all issues of price or rules sets or customer support, any discussion that veers into questions of ethics cannot avoid the pattern of behavior that GW has engaged in with regards to enforcement of "their" Intellectual Property. A pattern of behavior that can fairly be interpreted to be abusive of their position and improper.

The simple fact is that the allegations against GW are credible and they are serious. While it is entirely appropriate to point out that these remain allegations, it's also fair to point out that (insofar as I am aware) no similar allegations exist against GW's competitors (again, with notable exceptions of MM and C'MoN, but those issues are best discussed elsewhere).

Thanks for the links, Buzz.

I read the first one, and this part really struck me:

Games Workshop is being aggressive here, no doubt. It *might* have common-law trademark rights in SPACE MARINE for novels. By and large, we allow rights holders to push the boundaries of their rights a bit. When the person being pushed against is much, much smaller than the party doing the pushing, we sometimes call it bullying. In this case, it might be a bit much to call it “bullying.”* Games Workshop hasn’t really threatened anyone. It hasn’t threatened to sue Ms. Hogarth. It didn’t even appear to threaten Amazon. All it did was, in essence, ask Amazon to remove Spots the Space Marine from Amazon’s Kindle offerings. Which Amazon did. No questions asked. Games Workshop barely had to work up a sweat.

Bullying the little guy, sure. But the action taken by Amazon seems to be the more questionable. Now, bear in mind I'm not a big legalities guy here, and I agree that GW is probably bullish in many regards concerning it's IP, but I question whether or not it's entirely unwarranted. I wonder, sometimes, how much being burned by Blizzard affects some of their legal decision making.

In reading the DCMA, the way I understand it based on your linked article is that GW COULD apply for the trademark, but in regards to literature is unlikely to win. Is that right?

I still dont know if, to me, it's a question of ethics in regards to GW's handling of the Chapterhouse suit. Personally, I hope GW smashes them into tiny pieces and bankrupts the company, if only because of Chapterhouse's arrogance in their exploitation of GWs IP. But then again, I'm hardly an IP expert.

What is clear from the Chapterhouse suit is that IP in regards to this type of product is INCREDIBLY murky.

I don't know enough about GWs corporate footprint in the UK, but again, I'd think the fact that they produce so much in the UK instead of sourcing to China where it would be infinitely cheaper should speak to something...

 insaniak wrote:

They don't deny that they're working on new stuff, but they don't tell us what that new stuff is, or when to expect it.

I don't recall there being any particular secrecy around 4e, but then I wasn't really following D&D at the time. But from my time hanging around the WotC site back when Star Wars Minis and War at Sea were going strong, I do recall WotC having a list up on the site detailing major upcoming releases for the next 12 months.

GW, by contrast... Unless you follow internet rumour-mongering, you have no way of knowing whether the codex you buy today will be obsolete next week.

WOTC was quite open about what they were doing once they announced 4e was on the horizen. Even now, with 5th on the way its even more open. Both editions,whether you liked 4e or not, was pretty well know what they were doing. Hell they even released preview type books for 4e:

http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-4E-Monsters-Presents/dp/B001UWMM80/ref=sr_1_29?ie=UTF8&qid=1361482260&sr=8-29&keywords=dungeons+and+dragons+4e+monsters


GW is freaking area 51 style secrecy. You dont know whats is what until it hits the streets.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Putting aside all issues of price or rules sets or customer support, any discussion that veers into questions of ethics cannot avoid the pattern of behavior that GW has engaged in with regards to enforcement of "their" Intellectual Property. A pattern of behavior that can fairly be interpreted to be abusive of their position and improper.

The simple fact is that the allegations against GW are credible and they are serious. While it is entirely appropriate to point out that these remain allegations, it's also fair to point out that (insofar as I am aware) no similar allegations exist against GW's competitors (again, with notable exceptions of MM and C'MoN, but those issues are best discussed elsewhere).

Thanks for the links, Buzz.

I read the first one, and this part really struck me:

Games Workshop is being aggressive here, no doubt. It *might* have common-law trademark rights in SPACE MARINE for novels. By and large, we allow rights holders to push the boundaries of their rights a bit. When the person being pushed against is much, much smaller than the party doing the pushing, we sometimes call it bullying. In this case, it might be a bit much to call it “bullying.”* Games Workshop hasn’t really threatened anyone. It hasn’t threatened to sue Ms. Hogarth. It didn’t even appear to threaten Amazon. All it did was, in essence, ask Amazon to remove Spots the Space Marine from Amazon’s Kindle offerings. Which Amazon did. No questions asked. Games Workshop barely had to work up a sweat.

Bullying the little guy, sure. But the action taken by Amazon seems to be the more questionable. Now, bear in mind I'm not a big legalities guy here, and I agree that GW is probably bullish in many regards concerning it's IP, but I question whether or not it's entirely unwarranted. I wonder, sometimes, how much being burned by Blizzard affects some of their legal decision making.

In reading the DCMA, the way I understand it based on your linked article is that GW COULD apply for the trademark, but in regards to literature is unlikely to win. Is that right?

I still dont know if, to me, it's a question of ethics in regards to GW's handling of the Chapterhouse suit. Personally, I hope GW smashes them into tiny pieces and bankrupts the company, if only because of Chapterhouse's arrogance in their exploitation of GWs IP. But then again, I'm hardly an IP expert.

What is clear from the Chapterhouse suit is that IP in regards to this type of product is INCREDIBLY murky.

I don't know enough about GWs corporate footprint in the UK, but again, I'd think the fact that they produce so much in the UK instead of sourcing to China where it would be infinitely cheaper should speak to something...

There is no point agruing with you then, not only do you support bad and unethical behaviour, you encourage it. You are given evidence and give back nothing. I never use the ignore button, but this is the first time thought about it, Ive never seen someone who is so stubbornly ignorant.

 Ravenous D wrote:

There is no point agruing with you then, not only do you support bad and unethical behaviour, you encourage it. You are given evidence and give back nothing. I never use the ignore button, but this is the first time thought about it, Ive never seen someone who is so stubbornly ignorant.

Ignore him why? For having a differing opinion?

This entire thread is pointless then, everyone has an opinion.

I think the whole discussion is fething stupid because at the end of the day, something is only worth however much an individual is willing to pay for it. GW is too expensive for you (and me generally) but it isnt for many many others, why is that even discussion worthy? Either they will get the balance correct and make even more profit, or they will break the back of the price to sales ratio and profits will go down. Its the decision of the board rightly or wrongly, I still don't get why people like so are so turbo pissed about the fact that some people place less value on their money or have large enough disposable incomes that they are willing to pay it.

They aren't "stubborn" they aren't "ignorant" they just place more or less value on an item than you do.

I only play a game once a month, so I've stopped buying more models, Ive got a couple thousand points, I will probably spend less than $50 at GW this year.. but I spend at least $500 a month going on the beer with my mates. Many call that a waste, I don't because I really enjoy it. Each to their own. Its the exact same thing with any other hobby, minis or otherwise.

I don't see what your problem is with the bloke, he's even agreeing with you on many points (as am I) I don't think he is saying he supports unethical behaviour, he is saying that is the companies business. GW clearly could do loads of things better, or more morally, and they could drop the price, but they choose not to, so that's just the way of it.

You wont buy,, ill buy hardly anything, many will buy loads. Each and every person has a differing opinion on how much its acceptable to "waste" on a hobby, and time will tell how things pan out for the company, but why on earth do you get so pissed about it?

 mattyrm wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

There is no point agruing with you then, not only do you support bad and unethical behaviour, you encourage it. You are given evidence and give back nothing. I never use the ignore button, but this is the first time thought about it, Ive never seen someone who is so stubbornly ignorant.

Ignore him why? For having a differing opinion?

This entire thread is pointless then, everyone has an opinion.

I think the whole discussion is fething stupid because at the end of the day, something is only worth however much an individual is willing to pay for it. GW is too expensive for you (and me generally) but it isnt for many many others, why is that even discussion worthy? Either they will get the balance correct and make even more profit, or they will break the back of the price to sales ratio and profits will go down. Its the decision of the board rightly or wrongly, I still don't get why people like so are so turbo pissed about the fact that some people place less value on their money or have large enough disposable incomes that they are willing to pay it.

They aren't "stubborn" they aren't "ignorant" they just place more or less value on an item than you do.

I only play a game once a month, so I've stopped buying more models, Ive got a couple thousand points, I will probably spend less than $50 at GW this year.. but I spend at least $500 a month going on the beer with my mates. Many call that a waste, I don't because I really enjoy it. Each to their own. Its the exact same thing with any other hobby, minis or otherwise.

I don't see what your problem is with the bloke, he's even agreeing with you on many points (as am I) I don't think he is saying he supports unethical behaviour, he is saying that is the companies business. GW clearly could do loads of things better, or more morally, and they could drop the price, but they choose not to, so that's just the way of it.

You wont buy,, ill buy hardly anything, many will buy loads. Each and every person has a differing opinion on how much its acceptable to "waste" on a hobby, and time will tell how things pan out for the company, but why on earth do you get so pissed about it?

Why you gotta say "at the end of the day" man? Why you gotta do that?

You're correct about the pricing issue. There is no pricing issue. Just people that are mad because they can't buy as much of the product as they used to be able to at a certain amount of X currency. I think any vehicle priced at over $30,000 US is stupid and a waste of money. I don't go around bashing people for buying expensive vehicles though.

 Ravenous D wrote:

There is no point agruing with you then, not only do you support bad and unethical behaviour, you encourage it. You are given evidence and give back nothing. I never use the ignore button, but this is the first time thought about it, Ive never seen someone who is so stubbornly ignorant.

Not sure how you got any of that from my response.

I understand GW aggressively protecting their IP. The the article Buzz linked, the expert states that GW is bullying. I get that. I guess I just don't see it being unethical. Inconsiderate? Probably. Mean? Possibly. But I don't know about unethical. Do they own the trademark for the digital literature version of "Space Marine?" According to the article, no. But, again based on that article, it seems like it's more due to the fact that they wouldn't be able to get it than anything. Like the article states, they didn't sue, and they didn't pursue it further. Isn't the onus on Amazon to complete the due diligence he lists? If they had, the author could have responded in kind, GW would have been forced to say, yeah, you called our bluff, we don't own that trademark, and it would have been over, right?

Perhaps I just need it explained better in the overall context, but I don't really understand how Russ Nicholson's story was amount to suborning perjury. Was the purpose that they were trying to get Nicholson to say they'd commissioned and paid for the full piece? Again, I think I just dont understand it in the whole context.

In the Gary Chaulk incident, I guess I again need more contextual explanation how they fabricated evidence. Are they claiming that Chaulk gave them permission to sue, or had granted them permanent publication rights nad not just first publication rights?

And how much of the Chapterhouse case comes from the fact that IP law in regards to artwork and miniatures and their derivative works is so grey in the first place? I'd love for someone that knows what they're talking about to explain that to me in a PM if they're willing.

I agree that GW's claim to rights concerning "Space Marine" is unethical. The concept of space marines and title should be common property (or whatever the exact wording is for it). Space Marines as a warrior-cult of genetically modified superhumans in baroque power armor serving their god-father-Emperor should be exclusive to GW...to an extent, that part is the gray area.

 Amaya wrote:


You're correct about the pricing issue. There is no pricing issue. Just people that are mad because they can't buy as much of the product as they used to be able to at a certain amount of X currency. I think any vehicle priced at over $30,000 US is stupid and a waste of money. I don't go around bashing people for buying expensive vehicles though.

No, actually. There is an issue about prcinng, see 1 million threads on them. Their prices have risen far beyond inflation. Their public records show they are selling less units at higher prices. Other threads, especially with our canadian or aussie forumites show that their pricing there has no bearing on reality of currency.

How exactly is that a pricing issue? They can charge anything they want for their product. That is not a problem, that is capitalism. If they make a profit, it is successful. If they maximize their profits, even better. If they lose money, then, and only then, is there a problem and that doesn't necessarily mean that it is a problem with pricing.

No one can say beyond reasonable doubt that the price increase is not justified without having access to GW's accounts.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.

Said BP over the massive oil spill.

Apathy and ignorance are not an answer, they're a cop out. If there is a problem you deal with, you dont go and hide under a pile of coats in mom and dads room.

To stick to your metaphor: I am pretty sure that hundreds of people yelling at the oil would not have made it turn back either

I'm glad we aren't overstating the magnitude of the issue, though.

Surely the destruction of the economy of the southern US is comparable in scale to the price of space manz.

 Amaya wrote:
How exactly is that a pricing issue? They can charge anything they want for their product.

Of course they can. And when they charge this customer one price and that customer a different price, people will complain.

Imagine walking into a coffee shop, and having them just arbitrarily charge you twice as much as the guy in front of you because you live in a different neighbourhood.

 insaniak wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
How exactly is that a pricing issue? They can charge anything they want for their product.

Of course they can. And when they charge this customer one price and that customer a different price, people will complain.

Imagine walking into a coffee shop, and having them just arbitrarily charge you twice as much as the guy in front of you because you live in a different neighbourhood.

Well that would sure make me upset!

I'm pretty sure everyone who pays even the least bit of attention to these arguments is sick and tired of Australians and New Zealanders complaining about price mark ups. Yes, you get charged more. As far as we can tell the markup seems excessively higher than the actual shipping cost. We get it, it sucks to be you. Your region specific problem doesn't have any bearing on this issue though. Y'all were paying out the donkey cave before GW decided to expirement with price hiking.

 mattyrm wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

There is no point agruing with you then, not only do you support bad and unethical behaviour, you encourage it. You are given evidence and give back nothing. I never use the ignore button, but this is the first time thought about it, Ive never seen someone who is so stubbornly ignorant.

Ignore him why? For having a differing opinion?

This entire thread is pointless then, everyone has an opinion.

I think the whole discussion is fething stupid because at the end of the day, something is only worth however much an individual is willing to pay for it. GW is too expensive for you (and me generally) but it isnt for many many others, why is that even discussion worthy? Either they will get the balance correct and make even more profit, or they will break the back of the price to sales ratio and profits will go down. Its the decision of the board rightly or wrongly, I still don't get why people like so are so turbo pissed about the fact that some people place less value on their money or have large enough disposable incomes that they are willing to pay it.

They aren't "stubborn" they aren't "ignorant" they just place more or less value on an item than you do.

I only play a game once a month, so I've stopped buying more models, Ive got a couple thousand points, I will probably spend less than $50 at GW this year.. but I spend at least $500 a month going on the beer with my mates. Many call that a waste, I don't because I really enjoy it. Each to their own. Its the exact same thing with any other hobby, minis or otherwise.

I don't see what your problem is with the bloke, he's even agreeing with you on many points (as am I) I don't think he is saying he supports unethical behaviour, he is saying that is the companies business. GW clearly could do loads of things better, or more morally, and they could drop the price, but they choose not to, so that's just the way of it.

You wont buy,, ill buy hardly anything, many will buy loads. Each and every person has a differing opinion on how much its acceptable to "waste" on a hobby, and time will tell how things pan out for the company, but why on earth do you get so pissed about it?

At this point, and over this posted Thread on Dakka, I 100% agree with Mattyrm on this one.

And I'd like to throw it out there that the OP set this up as a trap that people have whoeheartedly jumped right into. Not that he's been back since page... 2-3?

But at this point, and into the direction that this circle logic is going, the points are being whipped like a government mule.

I will beat on that gluefactory with reckless abandon, but when it serves to honestly make a point or say something.

NOW? No gents and ladies, this thread is turned into a self destructive gak fest. The OP needs to be censured for this, and seeing that they are the ones that posted some yap about "Responsibility", and then drop out of the conversation without coming back to retort the discussion? No, the thread has gone beyond honest conversation.

This is just getting into one of those needless argumentives about white knights, and haters... again.

Now we're going at it over.... pricing. again.

Seriously?

Blindly defending GW would be white knighting. I haven't really seen anyone doing that. There are however, a multitude of vocal haters that appear to not understand simple economics who believe the price increase should only be in relation to inflation.

 Amaya wrote:
How exactly is that a pricing issue?

Ask an Aussie forumite how much he pays for the SAME model you buy in US currency. Currency exchange generally is suppose to dictate what someone pays for a product when crossing borders. Its like you ordering forge world and them charging you 3 times the amount when the dollar vs pound is only 1.5 to 1 in exchange. Add to it disallowing any retailer not in that hemisphere the ability to sell to the poor aussies. A not captialist idea of itself.

Thats the pricing issue.

No one can say beyond reasonable doubt that the price increase is not justified without having access to GW's accounts.

Unsupportable. You're white knighting GW. Its already been proven that the rises dont go with inflation. And of course, they have absolutely lied about past increases(tin prices and finecast price rises).

And that is not the pricing "issue" being discussed, that is one that has been ongoing for quite some time.

Face it, GW doesn't want to sell to a penal colony.

 Amaya wrote:
And that is not the pricing "issue" being discussed, that is one that has been ongoing for quite some time.

Goal posts moving. It IS a pricing issue. Its just one you dont wish to talk about.