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The only people who care about it are Australians and New Zealanders. Don't buy the product or buy from an alternative source.

As long as there are those willing to pay it, GW will continue to charge those prices because their profit margin on Aus/NZ sales is probably excellent.

 Amaya wrote:
The only people who care about it are Australians and New Zealanders. Don't buy the product or buy from an alternative source.

Untrue. More folks have cared about it that werent in those countries if you paid any attention. They cant buy from alternative sources since GW killed that as well.

As long as there are those willing to pay it, GW will continue to charge those prices because their profit margin on Aus/NZ sales is probably excellent.

Not really. Not according to their finacial statements that they keep releasing. In fact its been postulated that the whole reason for the embargo of allowing to sell from northern hemisphere is to increase their profit margins that it was not good to begin with.


Any other ideas you wish to white knight while not having any facts?

So disagreeing with you is white knighting?

Now that you've established you have no interest in sensible discourse, perhaps you should leave.


GW is not required to charge whatever anyone thinks is a fair price. It is impossible to assess what a fair price actually is even with all the data. Very little data is available to the public concerning GW's accounts.


You can not complain that the price is unfair. All you can do is say that you dislike the price. This is not a homogenous market. Competitors provide similar, not identical products. If two companies are selling the exact same product at say, $10 and $100, you could argue that one of those is an unfair price, but without all the facts you could not say which one. For all you know the $10 is being manufactured from what amounts to slave labor. Perhaps the $100 product actually has a total cost of $5 and they are gouging the customer.

GW provides a unique, non essential, superior good. As long as demand exists for the product they are free to charge the customer whatever they want. There is no ethical issue at play here. Only disgruntled customers that are angry that their purchasing power has been reduced.

 Amaya wrote:
Blindly defending GW would be white knighting. I haven't really seen anyone doing that. There are however, a multitude of vocal haters that appear to not understand simple economics who believe the price increase should only be in relation to inflation.

Hmm. You dismissed people complaining about prices as 'haters' and you also assumed a reason for their complaint. You're not trying to understand the problem, you're just defining it on your own terms and dismissing it.

What you just did there? That's White Knighting.

I'm not from Oz or NZ and I think the fact that they pay nearly double what we do when their currency is valued at near the same is pretty crappy. None of us know why that is. Is it tarrif and import costs? I have no idea. And I'm pretty sure GW has never been forthright about it.

With that being said, if that's their pricing structure and methodology, it makes perfect sense that GW would ban non-Aussie sales to Oz, at it completely undercuts any GW stores locate in Australia.

And until GW provides an explanation to their pricing methodology for the Southern Hemisphere, we won't be able to do anything but say, "wow, that seems really unfair."

But then again, you all have the LotR landscape, tons of beautiful blonde women, great weather, and kangaroos. So I don't feel too bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amaya wrote:
.

GW provides a unique, non essential, superior good. As long as demand exists for the product they are free to charge the customer whatever they want. There is no ethical issue at play here. Only disgruntled customers that are angry that their purchasing power has been reduced.

Ding ding ding. Big white elephant in the room.

Riquende wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
Blindly defending GW would be white knighting. I haven't really seen anyone doing that. There are however, a multitude of vocal haters that appear to not understand simple economics who believe the price increase should only be in relation to inflation.

Hmm. You dismissed people complaining about prices as 'haters' and you also assumed a reason for their complaint. You're not trying to understand the problem, you're just defining it on your own terms and dismissing it.

What you just did there? That's White Knighting.

Please show me where I said everyone complaining about prices is a hater.

 Amaya wrote:
I'm pretty sure everyone who pays even the least bit of attention to these arguments is sick and tired of Australians and New Zealanders complaining about price mark ups. Yes, you get charged more. As far as we can tell the markup seems excessively higher than the actual shipping cost. We get it, it sucks to be you. Your region specific problem doesn't have any bearing on this issue though. Y'all were paying out the donkey cave before GW decided to expirement with price hiking.

For starters, it's not just Australians and New Zealanders affected by GW's regional pricing... And despite your attempts to make it so, the 'issue' under discussion here is community response to GW, not whether or not price hikes are something to get excited about.

 Amaya wrote:

Riquende wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
Blindly defending GW would be white knighting. I haven't really seen anyone doing that. There are however, a multitude of vocal haters that appear to not understand simple economics who believe the price increase should only be in relation to inflation.

Hmm. You dismissed people complaining about prices as 'haters' and you also assumed a reason for their complaint. You're not trying to understand the problem, you're just defining it on your own terms and dismissing it.

What you just did there? That's White Knighting.

Please show me where I said everyone complaining about prices is a hater.

Nowhere. Nobody said you did.

Stay classy.

 insaniak wrote:

For starters, it's not just Australians and New Zealanders affected by GW's regional pricing... And despite your attempts to make it so, the 'issue' under discussion here is community response to GW, not whether or not price hikes are something to get excited about.

Are you suggesting these are unrelated issues?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Riquende wrote:

 Amaya wrote:

Riquende wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
Blindly defending GW would be white knighting. I haven't really seen anyone doing that. There are however, a multitude of vocal haters that appear to not understand simple economics who believe the price increase should only be in relation to inflation.

Hmm. You dismissed people complaining about prices as 'haters' and you also assumed a reason for their complaint. You're not trying to understand the problem, you're just defining it on your own terms and dismissing it.

What you just did there? That's White Knighting.

Please show me where I said everyone complaining about prices is a hater.

Nowhere. Nobody said you did.

Stay classy.

And what did I specifically say that the vocal haters were doing?

Do you always result to cliches and insults when you can't formulate your own ideas and argument?

carmachu wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
How exactly is that a pricing issue?

Ask an Aussie forumite how much he pays for the SAME model you buy in US currency. Currency exchange generally is suppose to dictate what someone pays for a product when crossing borders. Its like you ordering forge world and them charging you 3 times the amount when the dollar vs pound is only 1.5 to 1 in exchange. Add to it disallowing any retailer not in that hemisphere the ability to sell to the poor aussies. A not captialist idea of itself.

Thats the pricing issue.

No one can say beyond reasonable doubt that the price increase is not justified without having access to GW's accounts.

Unsupportable. You're white knighting GW. Its already been proven that the rises dont go with inflation. And of course, they have absolutely lied about past increases(tin prices and finecast price rises).

A couple things. First, GW isn't the only company charging quite a bit more for product sold in Australia. Many other companies do as well. Given that it's pretty widespread, I think there's something else going on and Australians need to look at their own government and international trade laws to get this figured out. Does GW charge Aussies more? Yep. So does Adobe, Apple, MS and others. Interestingly, the Australian government is only looking into IT price issues; so, again, if you are an Australian ask your own government about what's going on. I have my guesses, but that's a longer discussion.

Regarding price increasing being justified or not. GW is a corporate entity; the only justification they need to increase prices is when they go to their shareholders to show an increase in profits. There are very very few things sold whose retail price has anything at all to do with production costs. In nearly all markets, retail price is driven by what customers will pay vs number of units shipped. Review the first 3 paragraphs of the wiki article on price elasticity. You don't have to wade through the math to understand it.

Further, arguing that it's not tied to inflation is stupid. Of course it's not. Inflation is defined by a general rise in the prices of goods. That has absolutely nothing at all to do with what a single company is doing with their price models. Heck, I have my own business (not wargaming related) and I can promise you our prices have absolutely zero correlation to inflation and depend entirely on the most amount of money we can get for given production levels. If I thought I could raise prices 50% tomorrow and keep the same, or higher, revenue levels I'd do it.

Essentially, GW, PP and others have recently (last few years) been testing various price points to see exactly what the price elasticity of their products are. I said late last year that I felt they were close to zeroing in on a good balance between units shipped at a given price point; and I think the DA and Daemons releases are proving that.

Side note, if you've been watching Black Library you'd notice that they have been experimenting with various book types and price ranges. You have to watch these pretty much weekly to see how things are being repackaged and sold. As an example, Angel Exterminatus originally cost $16US as an "enhanced ebook" and $30 as a hardback. Given that 3 months later they are now selling the "regular ebook" edition for $8 you can safely bet that few people were willing to pay $16 for an ebook and so they are repricing. They have had a few recent titles in the $9 and $12 range as well. Again, feeling out the market.

Also, with each new army update, GW pushes the prices on various units. Then they watch to see what the reception is. You'll notice the latest prices for the Daemons models that are coming out aren't quite as high as you'd expect given the DA release; that isn't by accident. You'll notice the Chariots are $40 not $60+; which indicates they are dialing things back a bit in that area. However, $25 for certain characters seems to indicate they are testing to see if people will handle slightly higher HQ costs.

My point is simply this: complaining about prices is absolutely stupid. The ONLY way price points will change is when demand changes enough to cause a real drop in revenue. Which means, if you don't like the prices, stop buying the plastic. And I don't mean simply moving to a discounter, as that has little impact on GW itself. Rather stop buying the product entirely and move on. I am not a white knight, rather I'm just a business owner who sees exactly what's going on.

clively wrote:
A couple things. First, GW isn't the only company charging quite a bit more for product sold in Australia. Many other companies do as well. Given that it's pretty widespread, I think there's something else going on and Australians need to look at their own government and international trade laws to get this figured out. Does GW charge Aussies more? Yep. So does Adobe, Apple, MS and others. Interestingly, the Australian government is only looking into IT price issues; so, again, if you are an Australian ask your own government about what's going on. I have my guesses, but that's a longer discussion.

Many companies do, yes... And the reason is simple: We'r a country that imports practically everything except basic foodstuff, and much of the retail sector is still working off pricing that was set back when the Oz dollar was worth half as much as it is now.

The reason it's becoming more of an issue now is simply that internet shopping is finally taking off in Australia, and people are starting to realise just how big the disparity is, and are starting to complain about it.

Complaining to the government won't achieve much. Complaining to the companies choosing to still follow outdating pricing practices will.


And again, this isn't just Australia. Canada pays nearly as much as we do, and their stock is shipping out of the same warehouse as customers in the US.

My point is simply this: complaining about prices is absolutely stupid. The ONLY way price points will change is when demand changes enough to cause a real drop in revenue. Which means, if you don't like the prices, stop buying the plastic.

Are you assuming that people aren't doing both?

People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.

The pricing disparity to Canada is much less. A hardcover HH book is 30USD and $35 CAD while being $45 AUD.

 insaniak wrote:


People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.

Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair.

All that happens is that a bunch of poster who either don't understand economics (or don't want to discuss it) get pissy with each other and disrupt the forums. A good portion of the negativity directed towards GW is based on these supposedly unfair price increases. That's fine if it is kept to specific threads, but moderators shouldn't allow it to spill over into what seems to be every other thread about GW.

When I was looking into getting back into GW games a year and a half or so ago, I read about the embargo, as it stood out as one of the contentious issues around them. GW's official response was basically that they maintain hobby stores where you can come in and play or otherwise get a high level of help and service and that paying Australian staff and rent isn't any cheaper than it was. I sort of thought that sounded reasonable enough - though bear in mind, I was looking at LotR, which is still a lot cheaper than 40k, and this was before they cut the troop boxes in half. I just said to myself that I'd have to remember to take advantage of the stores being there frequently since I was paying for them with the box price.

My boyfriend at the time couldn't get over the sticker shock, though, to the degree that he could never get enthusiastic about the game (even not having paid for it himself) because all he could think about was how much it cost.

Tenuously tying this back to the topic, though, a lot of people have this weird idea that you should charge a fair price for your goods and services based on their worth and a reasonable expectation of profit rather than charging whatever you think will generate the maximum possible revenue. They think you shouldn't rip people off even if, due to market factors, you have the opportunity. Perhaps that's old fashioned. It is something that engenders very negative reactions, though, and even for those of us who initially accept the prices that reaction can be triggered by the price hikes.

 insaniak wrote:

Complaining to the government won't achieve much. Complaining to the companies choosing to still follow outdating pricing practices will.

And again, this isn't just Australia. Canada pays nearly as much as we do, and their stock is shipping out of the same warehouse as customers in the US.

Complaining to the companies won't do anything as long as people are still paying those prices. If Canadians are willing to pay a 20% premium over what the US pays then more power to GW for getting it.

 insaniak wrote:

My point is simply this: complaining about prices is absolutely stupid. The ONLY way price points will change is when demand changes enough to cause a real drop in revenue. Which means, if you don't like the prices, stop buying the plastic.

Are you assuming that people aren't doing both?

People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.

I think it's pretty obvious that some people are doing both. However it's equally obvious that most are only complaining while still buying either directly or through discounters. That's the part that I think has now reached a waste of time. Especially from those that claim to rage quit only to be back within a month talking about how they are going to pick up the latest XYZ release from GW. Ongoing negative discussion on any topic simply isn't healthy and there comes a time when you have to either accept reality or move on.

In this case, what is it the first thing new players see when coming to dakka? Numerous long winded negative threads about GW. I have years of time and thousands of dollars invested in The Hobby as well. Although I'm happy with my group, I'd like to see more players. How, is having constantly negative discussions about GW a positive introduction? Maybe these threads should be combined into a single "what did GW do to piss you off this week?" thread. Tucked somewhere safely away that people who want to blow some steam can do so in a nice safe out of the way place.

I honestly see the reason why You posted this.

"Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair."

When almost everyone's issue is the increasingly unreasonable price hikes, and the less then quality product.

Then you go off on a tanget at insainak over some triviality.

I retracted what I said, but the point is that you are seeing something where it honestly isn't and going off on too many points and it makes you look like your just pushing negative vibes.

People are not happy. Its not just out of the blue that everyone joined the bash GW club. To try to push that point of view is not even reasonable.

 Amaya wrote:
Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions.

Mods are as entitled as anyone else to have an opinion on the discussion at hand. That doesn't excuse rude behaviour from anyone, and as always posters should report any post they see as being rude.

A good portion of the negativity directed towards GW is based on these supposedly unfair price increases.

You seem to be confusing several different issues. I don't recall seeing a lot of complaints about price rises being 'unfair'. Unpopular, or 'unjustified', certainly... but the 'fairness' is usually more down to the regional pricing than on prices being too high.

But that just brings us back to the point of the thread... If a large part of the community is unhappy about GW's pricing, then that is something that should be discussed. Discussing the issues, good and bad, surrounding this hobby is exactly what these forums are for. And while people dismiss those complaints as pointless, they do get noticed. Whether or not anything happens as a result is anybody's guess, since we don't see the reasoning that goes into GW's business decisions. But getting the problems noticed is certainly more likely to effect change than just not talking about them.

 Amaya wrote:

 insaniak wrote:


People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.

Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair.

All that happens is that a bunch of poster who either don't understand economics (or don't want to discuss it) get pissy with each other and disrupt the forums. A good portion of the negativity directed towards GW is based on these supposedly unfair price increases. That's fine if it is kept to specific threads, but moderators shouldn't allow it to spill over into what seems to be every other thread about GW.

Here is a completely valid example of pricing being unfair:

Space Marine Tactical Squad:
GBP - 23.00
USD - 37.25
AUD - 62.00

Assuming that at the current exchange rate (which is decently stable and does't fluctuate much), a Tactical Squad should be roughly equal to 23 GBP.
GBP - 23.00
USD - 35.07 (roughly 35 dollars)
AUD - 34.10 (roughly 34 dollars)

While I think that 37.25 is too high for a tactical squad, I'll grant them the right to consider that fairly priced. But to almost DOUBLE the price in exchange rate is insane and unfair to Australians... There is no reason that the same tactical squad that is worth 23.00 GBP is worth 62 AUD even when taking into account exchange rates.

clively wrote:
Complaining to the companies won't do anything as long as people are still paying those prices.

A lot of people aren't. And companies are starting to take notice.

 Amaya wrote:

 insaniak wrote:


People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.

Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair.

The consumer of a product makes a decision to purchase that product with a varying degree of information to hand. If the consumer is adding together the evidence presented and comes to the conclusion that the seller is adding too much pure margin to the product or that the product's retailing price exceeds the consumer's perceived worth of the product, then the consumer may well argue that the pricing is unfair to the consumer. If the mark up is a great deal higher than the processes and raw materials necessary to produce the product, you will find a decreasing number of consumers willing to pay for it as it passes out of the perceived worth scale of an increasing number of those consumers.
The decision to purchase or not purchase based on what's being asked vs what the consumer is willing to pay for the item is basic retail and follows a very easy logic to follow.

 Amaya wrote:

All that happens is that a bunch of poster who either don't understand economics (or don't want to discuss it) get pissy with each other and disrupt the forums. A good portion of the negativity directed towards GW is based on these supposedly unfair price increases. That's fine if it is kept to specific threads, but moderators shouldn't allow it to spill over into what seems to be every other thread about GW.

It seems to be a core factor in every post about GW because GW are a retailer, the majority of posts about GW will relate to the sale of a product or have a link to the sale of a product and the posters are either current, potential or lost customers of that retailer.

Seems blatantly logical to me.


Also, Dakka does not place stipulation on it's moderators to remain neutral in discussion, they remain free to post their own thoughts, just not use their modhood to punish opposing viewpoints. They are still volunteering posters with a point of view and the right to express it on dakka along with the next poster.

Alfndrate wrote:

 Amaya wrote:

 insaniak wrote:


People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.

Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair.

All that happens is that a bunch of poster who either don't understand economics (or don't want to discuss it) get pissy with each other and disrupt the forums. A good portion of the negativity directed towards GW is based on these supposedly unfair price increases. That's fine if it is kept to specific threads, but moderators shouldn't allow it to spill over into what seems to be every other thread about GW.

Here is a completely valid example of pricing being unfair:

Space Marine Tactical Squad:
GBP - 23.00
USD - 37.25
AUD - 62.00

Assuming that at the current exchange rate (which is decently stable and does't fluctuate much), a Tactical Squad should be roughly equal to 23 GBP.
GBP - 23.00
USD - 35.07 (roughly 35 dollars)
AUD - 34.10 (roughly 34 dollars)

While I think that 37.25 is too high for a tactical squad, I'll grant them the right to consider that fairly priced. But to almost DOUBLE the price in exchange rate is insane and unfair to Australians... There is no reason that the same tactical squad that is worth 23.00 GBP is worth 62 AUD even when taking into account exchange rates.

Do Australians require the product to live? I would hope not. Do they have an inherent right to the product at the same price as everyone else? Nope.

It has very little to do with the exchange rate. You also have to consider the cost of shipping, tariffs, and the fact that GW is the sole supplier of the product and can choose to charge whatever they want.

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101024024953AAoqNte
http://www.nickhac.com/2011/01/why-do-consumer-goods-in-australia-cost.html

The expense doesn't apply only to GW products as many posters make it out to be.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Amaya wrote:

 insaniak wrote:


People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.

Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair.

The consumer of a product makes a decision to purchase that product with a varying degree of information to hand. If the consumer is adding together the evidence presented and comes to the conclusion that the seller is adding too much pure margin to the product or that the product's retailing price exceeds the consumer's perceived worth of the product, then the consumer may well argue that the pricing is unfair to the consumer. If the mark up is a great deal higher than the processes and raw materials necessary to produce the product, you will find a decreasing number of consumers willing to pay for it as it passes out of the perceived worth scale of an increasing number of those consumers.
The decision to purchase or not purchase based on what's being asked vs what the consumer is willing to pay for the item is basic retail and follows a very easy logic to follow.

That's lovely, but what does any of that have to do with fairness?

HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

Tenuously tying this back to the topic, though, a lot of people have this weird idea that you should charge a fair price for your goods and services based on their worth and a reasonable expectation of profit rather than charging whatever you think will generate the maximum possible revenue. They think you shouldn't rip people off even if, due to market factors, you have the opportunity. Perhaps that's old fashioned. It is something that engenders very negative reactions, though, and even for those of us who initially accept the prices that reaction can be triggered by the price hikes.

The problem here is who defines what's "fair"? For example, in terms of food fair can equate to a price that any reasonably employed person can pay and be able to eat three meals a day. In terms of exotic cars, fair could be defined as whatever the uber rich person will pay to drive one. I mean no one could seriously claim that ANY car is worth $1M; but there are certainly cars sold for that much or more. I think we could agree that things like food, basic clothing and basic shelter should all be reasonably affordable by unskilled workers such that they can provide for a family; and hence should be heavily watched by various governments to ensure gouging does not occur.

However, when you bring in unnecessary items, like wargaming products, then the only way to be fair is to allow the market to establish the maximum price they are willing to pay. In Canada/Australia, that price is apparently higher than for Americans or Brits.

"Ripping people off" is not really related to price and is entirely related to how a given person feels about a purchase they have made. In a previous life I sold cars for a living. In a very few cases I sold some for huge losses just to get them off the lot. I still remember one lady who bought a car from me in which we lost over $15k on the deal and she thought she had been ripped off. The car was brand new with a MSRP of $35k; I sold it for $13k simply because it had been on our lot for far too long and was costing us more money every single day it sat there. There was nothing wrong with the car, it had 15 miles on it due to a couple of demo drives. It had not been wrecked and the paint didn't have so much as a minor chip in it. Regardless, a week after buying she came to me claiming she had been ripped off. Yes, this is an extreme case, but I tell it to highlight that the terms "fair" and "ripping people off" are completely dependent upon the person using those words.

Is it fair for GW to make a product that someone might not be able to afford? Yes. Is it fair that GW raises prices to the point that you are no longer able to continue in their definition of The Hobby? Absolutely. As a matter of fact, I for one am very glad GW has risen prices. It has caused numerous other companies to spring up to offer products of similar, or in some cases higher, quality at better price points. This is a great thing for the market and everyone will ultimately benefit. If the new competition is good enough, it will certainly result in a repricing at some point. To help that along I hope that most tournaments shift to allowing, if not actively encouraging, usage of non-gw miniatures. This would be a huge boon to wargamers in general. I like this game, and I generally like the models GW releases. However, if I can buy a squad of "armored space infantry" that is of equal or better quality for a lower price point then I will happily vote with my dollars. And, just to be clear, I'm not talking about buying something recast or a blatant rip off of GW tac squads. Rather, I'd look for a new take on the whole look.

 insaniak wrote:

clively wrote:
Complaining to the companies won't do anything as long as people are still paying those prices.

A lot of people aren't. And companies are starting to take notice.

Even less are staying with GW products, Why stay invested in something that blatantly rips you off.
All those overseas posters who make out like this embargo won't affect you, i'll be laughing when GW decides to screw you over.
The worst part of this embargo is places where GW doesn't really have a prescence, like south america. GW in it's brilliance just removed themselves from these markets.

Anyways thanks GW, i found a better game thanks to your embargo.

That's assuming that GW making a profit selling in South America.

 Amaya wrote:

Alfndrate wrote:

 Amaya wrote:

 insaniak wrote:


People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.

Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair.

All that happens is that a bunch of poster who either don't understand economics (or don't want to discuss it) get pissy with each other and disrupt the forums. A good portion of the negativity directed towards GW is based on these supposedly unfair price increases. That's fine if it is kept to specific threads, but moderators shouldn't allow it to spill over into what seems to be every other thread about GW.

Here is a completely valid example of pricing being unfair:

Space Marine Tactical Squad:
GBP - 23.00
USD - 37.25
AUD - 62.00

Assuming that at the current exchange rate (which is decently stable and does't fluctuate much), a Tactical Squad should be roughly equal to 23 GBP.
GBP - 23.00
USD - 35.07 (roughly 35 dollars)
AUD - 34.10 (roughly 34 dollars)

While I think that 37.25 is too high for a tactical squad, I'll grant them the right to consider that fairly priced. But to almost DOUBLE the price in exchange rate is insane and unfair to Australians... There is no reason that the same tactical squad that is worth 23.00 GBP is worth 62 AUD even when taking into account exchange rates.

Do Australians require the product to live? I would hope not. Do they have an inherent right to the product at the same price as everyone else? Nope.

It has very little to do with the exchange rate. You also have to consider the cost of shipping, tariffs, and the fact that GW is the sole supplier of the product and can choose to charge whatever they want.

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101024024953AAoqNte
http://www.nickhac.com/2011/01/why-do-consumer-goods-in-australia-cost.html

The expense doesn't apply only to GW products as many posters make it out to be.

GW isn't the only company here, yes I get that, but we're not an Apple.com discussion forum, we're a wargaming forum, and no one is forcing anyone to buy these non-essential items, the problem arises in the fact that I don't see people buying more than 1 iPod Classic per person, no one needs more than 1 audi (which might still be taken care of with auto loans not sure how their car market works down under), and no one needs any thing else that you or I linked. We're all looking to spend our disposable income in different ways, that's why it's disposable. The problem arises in the fact that for the cost of a GW army, I could probably buy my family a few ipod classics. Also you have to take into account updated versions. The Australian iPod Touch black 32gb is 329.00 AUD... the same iPod is 299.00 Not that much of a difference anymore, yet Australians are paying almost double for 10 plastic space mans.

Is there price disparity between America and Australia? Yes. Is GW's price disparity a larger difference? Yes.

Bullockist wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

clively wrote:
Complaining to the companies won't do anything as long as people are still paying those prices.

A lot of people aren't. And companies are starting to take notice.

Even less are staying with GW products, Why stay invested in something that blatantly rips you off.
All those overseas posters who make out like this embargo won't affect you, i'll be laughing when GW decides to screw you over.
The worst part of this embargo is places where GW doesn't really have a prescence, like south america. GW in it's brilliance just removed themselves from these markets.

Anyways thanks GW, i found a better game thanks to your embargo.

Hey my thanks to you for the well articulated and thoughtful response. You've added so much to what was becoming a dangerously intelligent , adult, and rational conversation. Thanks for knocking us down a peg.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Amaya wrote:

Alfndrate wrote:

 Amaya wrote:

 insaniak wrote:


People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.

Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair.

All that happens is that a bunch of poster who either don't understand economics (or don't want to discuss it) get pissy with each other and disrupt the forums. A good portion of the negativity directed towards GW is based on these supposedly unfair price increases. That's fine if it is kept to specific threads, but moderators shouldn't allow it to spill over into what seems to be every other thread about GW.

Here is a completely valid example of pricing being unfair:

Space Marine Tactical Squad:
GBP - 23.00
USD - 37.25
AUD - 62.00

Assuming that at the current exchange rate (which is decently stable and does't fluctuate much), a Tactical Squad should be roughly equal to 23 GBP.
GBP - 23.00
USD - 35.07 (roughly 35 dollars)
AUD - 34.10 (roughly 34 dollars)

While I think that 37.25 is too high for a tactical squad, I'll grant them the right to consider that fairly priced. But to almost DOUBLE the price in exchange rate is insane and unfair to Australians... There is no reason that the same tactical squad that is worth 23.00 GBP is worth 62 AUD even when taking into account exchange rates.

Do Australians require the product to live? I would hope not. Do they have an inherent right to the product at the same price as everyone else? Nope.

It has very little to do with the exchange rate. You also have to consider the cost of shipping, tariffs, and the fact that GW is the sole supplier of the product and can choose to charge whatever they want.

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101024024953AAoqNte
http://www.nickhac.com/2011/01/why-do-consumer-goods-in-australia-cost.html

The expense doesn't apply only to GW products as many posters make it out to be.

GW isn't the only company here, yes I get that, but we're not an Apple.com discussion forum, we're a wargaming forum, and no one is forcing anyone to buy these non-essential items, the problem arises in the fact that I don't see people buying more than 1 iPod Classic per person, no one needs more than 1 audi (which might still be taken care of with auto loans not sure how their car market works down under), and no one needs any thing else that you or I linked. We're all looking to spend our disposable income in different ways, that's why it's disposable. The problem arises in the fact that for the cost of a GW army, I could probably buy my family a few ipod classics. Also you have to take into account updated versions. The Australian iPod Touch black 32gb is 329.00 AUD... the same iPod is 299.00 Not that much of a difference anymore, yet Australians are paying almost double for 10 plastic space mans.

I have three iPods/iPhones that all get used for different purposes. Speak for yourself ;-).

 insaniak wrote:
But that just brings us back to the point of the thread... If a large part of the community is unhappy about GW's pricing, then that is something that should be discussed. Discussing the issues, good and bad, surrounding this hobby is exactly what these forums are for. And while people dismiss those complaints as pointless, they do get noticed. Whether or not anything happens as a result is anybody's guess, since we don't see the reasoning that goes into GW's business decisions. But getting the problems noticed is certainly more likely to effect change than just not talking about them.

I agree. Even if they don't get noticed by GW directly, they get noticed by gamers and the more gamers notice, the better. I've almost completely stopped buying GW products in Oz and greatly reduced my GW spending as well (despite the flag next to my name I'm Australian). It's easier said than done to just stop buying completely because it's a hobby I'm heavily invested in and to stop purchasing it and sell my armies would be flushing both a lot of money AND a lot of time down the toilet.

Discussion which is negative to GW is as legitimate as any other discussion. If it is off topic for the thread, then yeah, it's not good, but honestly for the most part on Dakka it's not that bad at all. Some forums I frequent you can't even mention certain products and topics without putting on a flame suit for all the off topic hateful responses you'll get. Informative and thought out negativity, even if it's being repeated for the millionth time, is not a bad thing IMO, and that's what most of it is, it's just some people can't read negativity without also thinking it's "hate" opposed to "discussion".

I think if you want to improve the quality of "discussion", banning the terms "white knight" and "GW hater" and banning dismissive posts would go a long way They tend to be what lowers the tone of discussion to be more aggressive, more negative and less constructive.

I still don't see how that is unfair. It is a not an essential good. If it's out of your acceptable price range, don't buy it.

 Kung Fu Hamster wrote:
it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort.

Your not going to get very far when you start out calling anyone who doesnt like GW "the overall dregs of the community".

As a matter of fact, it serves to lump you into the group you are attempting to disparage.

I agree with the Marauder IIc, and not because that's the noblest of all the mechs.