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The point is just that it isn't all GW's fault. There are other factors at play. I understand why people are frustrated over the increases, but you have to keep the discussion logical and at least attempt to identify and assess all the other variables before coming to a conclusion.
Actually I think it is perfectly reasonable to blame GW.
They seem to have decided the latest releases (DA and WoC) should be priced equally between Au and the US, but so that so that the US pay our prices. I think for the first time ever the new Warriors of Chaos lord model is priced at $25 in both countries. That is pretty standard for us but in the US that's a huge mark up, the speeder and flyer from the DA release as well as the monsters from the WoC release are not priced much above what we pay but they had the Americans up in arms as it was a huge step up (I was going to get 3 of those flyers but dropped the idea since I couldn't get them cheap in the US). Clearly it is not shipping, tax or anything else here that is causing our prices, GW just priced it at that when the dollar was down and now that it has come up they have decided 'hey, people will still buy this, lets charge the US this much'.
Also if there was any doubt that Kirby is padding his retirement fund at the cost of long term profits, Australian sales have been dropping by like 10% a year for a while now, I expect the US to follow what this new pricing scheme comes into full effect.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Yes, part of the mark up of in Australia and New Zealand is due to antiquated exploitation. A good bit of it is also due to the Aussie dollar crashing into the abyss not too long ago, relatively high wages, import duties (etc), and a small market. I don't pretend to know all the details of it, but you're pretending this is a clear cut situation and these foreign companies are demonic greedy fiends.
I don't understand when the dollar crashed, in fact the dollar is sitting around or above parity with the US dollar and has for years.
A few years, sure. As recently as 10 years ago (which, economically speaking is recent) the AUD was at .54. So lets not pretend like the upswing of the AUD has been some ever present force. It's only JUST started to normalize with the USD in the past 4 years.
You also will need to factor in the wage of workers at GWs/FLGSs in Australia.
You really don't. Yes, higher wages eat further into your profits... but so does losing sales because your prices are unrealistic.
The point is just that it isn't all GW's fault. There are other factors at play.
Yes, there are. As I said, I'm perfectly happy to see those factors accounted for in the price.
Something that adds extra angst to the issue though is GW's way of dealing with the whole issue. For many companies, the fact that customers can get product cheaper by buying from outside their own region on the internet is an annoyance, but also an unavoidable side-effect of the digital age, and they balance it out against in-store service and the fact that ordering on the net means waiting longer for their product. So at the end of the day, I can, for example, walk into my local store and buy the Warmachine starter set, and have it now, or I can order it online for a little bit less (much less of a difference than with GW products) and get it a week from now.
GW, by contrast, tells me that I can only buy their product from the stores that they think I should buy from. They forbid US webstores from showing customers pictures of their products, and from using webcarts for processing sales. They forbid Euro stores from selling to anyone not in Europe. Of course, they still allow international sales through their own webstores... but purchasing a pot of paint from GWUK will cost me £60 in shipping.
It's a 'head in the sand' approach to the digital age. They're convinced that if they make it too hard to purchase their product at an equitable price, that we'll just pay whatever they're asking. Which is lunacy.
And yes, again, I'm aware that GW aren't the only ones doing this. See Apple and Adobe... but again, the discussion here is about GW.
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RatBot wrote: If you mean Mad4Mini's avatar, Ouze, that's a Stone Rhino/Behemoth.
-1 nerd point!
completely off-topic:
I still have 1 of those in a box in my garage. I had to rebuild both of the arms because the thin top portion didn't survive very much handling due to the relative to the size/weight of the gun on the lower portion.
Nice. Well, the owning it part is nice, not the having to rebuild it part. I think I would legitimately eat a crate of live puppies for an Unseen, any of them, but especially the original Warhammer, Marauder, or Behemoth.
Ebay my friend. Ebay.
Just checked, they're all up for like $10 each. I wish I had some pocket change atm.
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(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
RAGE
Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
The problem I see comes down to how the corporation deals with its customer base. That is the key point to a great deal of problems that GW has. That to me is the key point to the negativity going around here.
There are no public relations. There is no advertisements. No public face. Did they not remove their Facebook page? There is only a perceived parasitic relationship between them and their retailers and customers.
This.
I was never priced out. But I won't support a company that I perceive as being hostile to its own customers.
True? False? Fair?
Doesn't matter. Perception is a powerful thing. And GW has historically shown as a corporation* to simply not care what their veteran customers think about them.
To GW: Testing price elasticity is fine, but do it tactfully and discretely, while respecting your customer base. Don't lie to them about tin prices, or tell them that you are switching to a cheaper material and that you will pass the savings onto the customer just to raise your prices yet again. Don't ignore your veterans for new younger customers, while slowly cutting back on the services and perks you used to provide in your own stores. Use your veterans! They love your product and will be happy to be goodwill ambassadors if given the chance! And instead of dropping the Wargavel 40K on anyone that looks like they are infringing on your IP, realize that there are some softer ways of dealing with the problem, perhaps including working with them...you know...stuff that increases customer goodwill. Fix your monthly magazine, and for the love of all your customers, embrace the existence of the internet. We know you are a business. We want(ed) to give you our money. But you have given us many reasons not to.
Back to Dakka: The onus is on them to change my perception. And apparently, based on the fact that this thread exists (along with numerous others), they have an issue with how they are perceived by many other gamers besides me.
*GW does have good customer service, so long as you can prove that you bought directly from them.
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@insaniak -- in this regard is it maybe more appropriate to compare more to Apple than any other war gaming company for the simple reason that they have employees in Australia (this is presuming there are Apple stores in Oz). Let me ask a hypothetical: if GW said they'd normalized prices for Oz with the US but removed all GW stores from the company to compensate, how would that be received?
RatBot wrote: If you mean Mad4Mini's avatar, Ouze, that's a Stone Rhino/Behemoth.
-1 nerd point!
completely off-topic:
I still have 1 of those in a box in my garage. I had to rebuild both of the arms because the thin top portion didn't survive very much handling due to the relative to the size/weight of the gun on the lower portion.
Nice. Well, the owning it part is nice, not the having to rebuild it part. I think I would legitimately eat a crate of live puppies for an Unseen, any of them, but especially the original Warhammer, Marauder, or Behemoth.
Ebay my friend. Ebay.
Just checked, they're all up for like $10 each. I wish I had some pocket change atm.
I've been warned that a lot of the ones on ebay are recasts... but it's still very tempting.
....though the ones still in the packaging are probably legit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/22 06:14:28
cincydooley wrote: Let me ask a hypothetical: if GW said they'd normalized prices for Oz with the US but removed all GW stores from the company to compensate, how would that be received?
The loss of GW stores would hardly make a ripple (particularly for anyone outside of our capital cities, which is where they are all clustered), and any resultant void in market coverage would soon be filled back up by independants.
A few years, sure. As recently as 10 years ago (which, economically speaking is recent) the AUD was at .54. So lets not pretend like the upswing of the AUD has been some ever present force. It's only JUST started to normalize with the USD in the past 4 years.
Apologies somehow i missed that crash. I had the (wrong) idea in my head that the dollar had sat at 73-79 cents (average over 20 years) before rising to parity.
However I do not understand how this affects pricing of a product now (logically that is, i understand how it is used to keep prices inflated).
A one man store at inflated prices being removed in favour of reduced prices? As long as there was some form of distribution, i think most Australians would be very happy. GW might even increase sales.
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST"
Then maybe getting rid of Aussie stores is the solution. The "embargo" is clearly a result of GW not wanting its in-Oz stores to be undercut by Online sellers (which they absolutely were).
As far as the pricing goes, and this is pure speculation, is that perhaps companies are wary or normalizing prices for a county that has traditionally sat (the median for the last 20 or so years is around .76) at about 25% lower than the USD. The Aussie dollar has only become even with the USD in last two years. Completely changing the pricing structures for a country that has no precedent for a 1:1 exchange rate with the USD has to be a big deal.
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I've been warned that a lot of the ones on ebay are recasts... but it's still very tempting.
....though the ones still in the packaging are probably legit.
Is it an OOP model? If it is, why so many qualms about it being a recast?
Well, the original versions are OOP; due to licensing issues, they were resculpted, so technically there are legitimate versions available. They're just radically different sculpts, and I'm generally opposed to piracy on moral grounds. I don't even pirate music or TV shows. Then again, they areOOP and I'd probably just buy the newer sculpts, too, regardless...
EDIT: I've long advocated eliminating GW stores outside of Europe (possibly outside of the UK); I'm confident that indies in the US can absorb the displaced customers. I don't really know anyone who utilizes a GW store. In my hometown, it's not even an option; the closest one in the country is over 300 miles away; technically there are a couple in Toronto that are physically closer but.... well, they're still a three hour drive away, and you'd be crossing into Canada, which is downright silly when there are three or four indie stores within 15 minutes of each other in town. Ideally, this would also come with a notable reduction in price, as part of the cost of GW minis is supposedly justified in paying for the stores (whether you use them or not). Others may have differing opinions on this, but I think it would be a net gain for GW. I know the stores are a key part, or the key part, of their recruitment strategy, but they could use traditional advertisement methods to compensate; either way, the lack of a presence of a GW store in my hometown has not been a detriment to the game. Before I moved 40K was still far and away the most popular tabletop war game. Fantasy was flagging badly, but it was never as popular to begin with.
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I want to agree with that, and I normally would, but when we went to our local GW at 2pm on a working Thursday (on our lunch) there were like 5 dudes in there getting ready to play. So clearly someone is using them. I personally don't use them to game, but they must do decent....
cincydooley wrote: I want to agree with that, and I normally would, but when we went to our local GW at 2pm on a working Thursday (on our lunch) there were like 5 dudes in there getting ready to play. So clearly someone is using them. I personally don't use them to game, but they must do decent....
Perhaps. Since I moved, I've been to my localish GW twice, mostly out of curiosity, though I did buy some Black Library books while I was there; the first time it was on a weekday afternoon/evening, and there was no one there. I asked about LotR since I had never played it, and the manager (who is a really cool guy) actually called up one of the regulars to come down and give me a demo, which was nice. While we were there, maybe two or three other people came in. This must've been last... March, I think. The other time, though, it was fairly packed, but that was the day 6th edition was released, and it was still, in absolute terms, a small crowd; about 10 people (though it sure felt crammed since it's one of those one man operations). I really should've gone to the FLGS on the same day and compared.
I guess GW sees the value in the stores, but I'm still not convinced it's the proper strategy in the US. Then again, I'm not a businessman and even if I was it doesn't really matter what I think.
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I've wracked my brain about how GW could use traditional marketing in the United States and without GW stores I don't know how it would work since their products aren't sold in normal US stores like Target or Walmart. Obviously print media makes the most sense, but without the GW stores, how do you direct them to make a purchase? From the website?
And on top of that, there are plenty of LGSs that I would NOT want a new gamer or a parent stepping into for their introduction. Sadly, too many offer examples of the worst our hobby has to offer; at least in a GW store it's a relatively safe experience.
Cinc, with all respect, it seems fairly clear that you don't completely understand the nature of my allegation against GW. Why then, before becoming convinced you understand the charge, are you offering an opinion as to the ethical nature of their conduct? It seems innappropriate to first proffer that one party is in the right, and follow that with a request that someone that understands what is going on explain things to you.
Spoiler:
cincydooley wrote:
Buzzsaw wrote: Putting aside all issues of price or rules sets or customer support, any discussion that veers into questions of ethics cannot avoid the pattern of behavior that GW has engaged in with regards to enforcement of "their" Intellectual Property. A pattern of behavior that can fairly be interpreted to be abusive of their position and improper.
The simple fact is that the allegations against GW are credible and they are serious. While it is entirely appropriate to point out that these remain allegations, it's also fair to point out that (insofar as I am aware) no similar allegations exist against GW's competitors (again, with notable exceptions of MM and C'MoN, but those issues are best discussed elsewhere).
Thanks for the links, Buzz.
I read the first one, and this part really struck me:
Games Workshop is being aggressive here, no doubt. It *might* have common-law trademark rights in SPACE MARINE for novels. By and large, we allow rights holders to push the boundaries of their rights a bit. When the person being pushed against is much, much smaller than the party doing the pushing, we sometimes call it bullying. In this case, it might be a bit much to call it “bullying.”* Games Workshop hasn’t really threatened anyone. It hasn’t threatened to sue Ms. Hogarth. It didn’t even appear to threaten Amazon. All it did was, in essence, ask Amazon to remove Spots the Space Marine from Amazon’s Kindle offerings. Which Amazon did. No questions asked. Games Workshop barely had to work up a sweat.
Bullying the little guy, sure. But the action taken by Amazon seems to be the more questionable. Now, bear in mind I'm not a big legalities guy here, and I agree that GW is probably bullish in many regards concerning it's IP, but I question whether or not it's entirely unwarranted. I wonder, sometimes, how much being burned by Blizzard affects some of their legal decision making.
In reading the DCMA, the way I understand it based on your linked article is that GW COULD apply for the trademark, but in regards to literature is unlikely to win. Is that right?
I still dont know if, to me, it's a question of ethics in regards to GW's handling of the Chapterhouse suit. Personally, I hope GW smashes them into tiny pieces and bankrupts the company, if only because of Chapterhouse's arrogance in their exploitation of GWs IP. But then again, I'm hardly an IP expert.
What is clear from the Chapterhouse suit is that IP in regards to this type of product is INCREDIBLY murky.
I don't know enough about GWs corporate footprint in the UK, but again, I'd think the fact that they produce so much in the UK instead of sourcing to China where it would be infinitely cheaper should speak to something...
There is no point agruing with you then, not only do you support bad and unethical behaviour, you encourage it. You are given evidence and give back nothing. I never use the ignore button, but this is the first time thought about it, Ive never seen someone who is so stubbornly ignorant.
Not sure how you got any of that from my response.
I understand GW aggressively protecting their IP. The the article Buzz linked, the expert states that GW is bullying. I get that. I guess I just don't see it being unethical. Inconsiderate? Probably. Mean? Possibly. But I don't know about unethical. Do they own the trademark for the digital literature version of "Space Marine?" According to the article, no. But, again based on that article, it seems like it's more due to the fact that they wouldn't be able to get it than anything. Like the article states, they didn't sue, and they didn't pursue it further. Isn't the onus on Amazon to complete the due diligence he lists? If they had, the author could have responded in kind, GW would have been forced to say, yeah, you called our bluff, we don't own that trademark, and it would have been over, right?
Perhaps I just need it explained better in the overall context, but I don't really understand how Russ Nicholson's story was amount to suborning perjury. Was the purpose that they were trying to get Nicholson to say they'd commissioned and paid for the full piece? Again, I think I just dont understand it in the whole context.
In the Gary Chaulk incident, I guess I again need more contextual explanation how they fabricated evidence. Are they claiming that Chaulk gave them permission to sue, or had granted them permanent publication rights nad not just first publication rights?
And how much of the Chapterhouse case comes from the fact that IP law in regards to artwork and miniatures and their derivative works is so grey in the first place? I'd love for someone that knows what they're talking about to explain that to me in a PM if they're willing.
For example, you mention "The the article Buzz linked, the expert states that GW is bullying. I get that. I guess I just don't see it being unethical." In order to justify this you focus on the trademark issue, but you miss the point that my allegation was "abusing the provisions of the DMCA". In reading the article you missed the authors more unequivocal point on the nature of he DMCA filing; "First, there is no such thing as a takedown notification for trademark infringement. That’s copyright infringement you’re thinking of." The DMCA is not a general IP protection law, nor does its safe harbor provisions extend to trademark issues, it is related instead only to Copyright. As would be expected of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
Though a small thread in the overall tapestry of malfeasance on the part of GW, it must be reiterated: under the DMCA, GW was not entitled to ask for the book to be taken down. That Amazon did not have to honor GW's request is both true and irrelevant, as GW's filing with Amazon was improper. Again, Amazon's error was in believing GW was acting in good faith.
As an aside, you concede that GW may be "Inconsiderate", "Mean" and "bullying", and that their attempt to ruin an independent author was a "bluff" but... "just don't see it being unethical"? Without addressing whether these actions are unethical in the lay fashion, I will proffer that, as an attorney, it's certainly true that one may do things that may be construed as "Inconsiderate", "Mean" and "bullying", but it is impermissible and a breach of the rules of professional conduct to make a representation that your client has rights they simply do not have.
As for Chalk and Nicholson, it's clear you are missing some of the context, which is fair as one must read with some lawyerly skill, but... well, you're cognizant that you don't fully grasp the issues at hand, but you assert; "I still dont know if, to me, it's a question of ethics in regards to GW's handling of the Chapterhouse suit. Personally, I hope GW smashes them into tiny pieces and bankrupts the company, if only because of Chapterhouse's arrogance in their exploitation of GWs IP. But then again, I'm hardly an IP expert."
I'm not quite sure you really understand how disturbing it is for someone that is an IP professional to see such a visceral dislike paired with the admission that you're not completely sure what is going on. With that in mind, let's really break down what is going on with Chalk and Nicholson, and see if your opinion of things changes;
1) In the 1980's Chalk and Nicholson were freelance artists doing work on commission for Games Workshop (specifically for White Dwarf). Both Chalk and Nicholson worked on commission, not as employees (which is legally significant).
-These details are explicitly stated by both artists: Nichols "when I originally did the work I never signed over rights to my work in the first place", Chalk "I have never had any written agreement with Games Workshop concerning ownership of copyrights in any of the works I created as a freelance artist."
2) Games Workshop, after filing their lawsuit against Chapterhouse, discovered that they were exerting rights under the copyright law on works they did not actually own (owing to the lack of assignment referenced above).
3) As point #2 above is a fatal defect in any suit, in the fall of 2012 GW sought to remedy these defects in the following fashion: they sent letters to former artists representing that they (GW) were engaged in "assembling the next part of our archive... involves the collection, scanning and filing of all our creative documents and schedules down the years." They further repeatedly assert "we have always made sure that Games Workshop closely directs and consequently owns those works."
-The letter to Gary Chalk is reproduced here.
4) The description of past events in the letters referenced in point #3 is flatly contradicted by both Russ Nichol's blog post, and Gary Chalk's sworn declaration.
-It is important to note that this final item is of an especially important nature: the Chalk Declaration is not a news article, a blog post or mere internet scuttlebutt. It is a signed declaration with penalties of perjury attached by a third party without known interest in the case.
5) Those are the extant facts, which lead to the following inferences;
- A) GW is asserting ownership of works thatGW does not own. Please note that this does not require any disputing of facts stated by GW: by their own admission in the above referenced letter, they do not have the relevant documentation.
- B) The allegation of fabricating evidence springs from the way GW is attempting to remedy (A) above is by having their former artists sign documentation asserting that at the time of creation, the works were work for hire. Two independent accounts by two artists flatly contradict the assertions put forward by GW.
This brings up a point I previously had not pointed out, but GW doesn't need to engage in such shady tactics to remedy their IP problems. GW needs ownership of certain works, ownership that at this time remains with the original artists: GW could simply offer to buy the copyright assignments. Which they are not doing: instead they seem to be hopeful that the artists in question no longer recall the nature of their previous association and thus will sign away their rights to GW.
Which, in the category of the ethics of GW, means that GW is trying to obtain rights by misstatements, in a sense trying to steal from their own former artists. That is, because the art in question was done on commission without assignment of rights outside of a right of first publication, after these works appeared in White Dwarf once, they were the property of the artists. In order to sue, GW needs the assignment... which means they need to negotiate an entirely separate contract, and pay the artists. Which, one notes, they seem to be doing all they can to avoid.
That is all a bit longer then I originally intended, but I hope that it answers some questions.
cincydooley wrote: I've wracked my brain about how GW could use traditional marketing in the United States and without GW stores I don't know how it would work since their products aren't sold in normal US stores like Target or Walmart. Obviously print media makes the most sense, but without the GW stores, how do you direct them to make a purchase? From the website?
And on top of that, there are plenty of LGSs that I would NOT want a new gamer or a parent stepping into for their introduction. Sadly, too many offer examples of the worst our hobby has to offer; at least in a GW store it's a relatively safe experience.
That's a pretty valid point. I would say that FLGS should be the point of entry. I mean, there's a store finder on their website, so they could just say "Hey, you can buy your stuff here, but if you want to have it more quickly and meet new opponents, just plug your city in here and find your local game store!" But, I suppose a lot of them might not be so great for young kids, which seems to be GW's target audience. I still think they should be targeting older demographics with more disposable income, but again, that's not what they want. Basically I think they should revamp their entire strategy, I guess. I admit, though, that I have that opinion for selfish reasons (thought that doesn't inherently mean it wouldn't work). In my experience, most LGS are pretty friendly and inviting; when my friends introduced me to miniature wargaming in 7th grade, we played in the FLGS with no issues whatsoever. But I've only been to five independent stores and I've certainly heard horror stories about other ones, and I can see how that would make it a risky proposition for GW.
I also think the barrier to entry for 40K and Fantasy is too high, ebay nonwithstanding, but this is a separate issue.
I mean, I'm sure I come across as a hater in a lot of my posts vis a vis GW, but I actually really do like 40K and WHFB for the most part, and I just think GW is making serious mistakes. I don't think they're the best games or the best miniatures in the world, but I do enjoy them. Maybe I'm completely off base and it'll all work out well for them in the end.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2013/02/22 08:53:34
cincydooley wrote: As far as the pricing goes, and this is pure speculation, is that perhaps companies are wary or normalizing prices for a county that has traditionally sat (the median for the last 20 or so years is around .76) at about 25% lower than the USD. The Aussie dollar has only become even with the USD in last two years. Completely changing the pricing structures for a country that has no precedent for a 1:1 exchange rate with the USD has to be a big deal.
But the prices are set at 2:1, and the Aussie dollar hasn't been that bad (more around 4:5) for years. They've had a very long time to realign the prices, yet never have. Plus it's not just conversion rates and tariffs - nothing is that black and white. Australia isn't out in the cold when it comes to pricing. Japan, New Zealand, Brazil - even Canada - has this problem. Australia is not unique in this struggle. Putting it down on outside factors is only part of the story, and GW plays a much bigger role in this than you seem to be willing to admit.
Amaya wrote: Blindly defending GW would be white knighting. I haven't really seen anyone doing that. There are however, a multitude of vocal haters that appear to not understand simple economics who believe the price increase should only be in relation to inflation.
Very true.
I agree with this, and the vast majority of what Amaya and Dooley have said, and clearly unlike the vast majority of "haters" I'm a guy who has stopped buying GW, and STILL (check the gallery) don't own a single finecast model. Although, the Scibor one I got instead was more expensive... so.. maybe I would have done that differently.
Anyway. Yes GW suck in many ways. yes they rob our Auzzie and Kiwi cousins.. yes their margins are ridiculous, its only plastic. But that said....
The amount of bitching in unbelievable. It boils down to the fact that we've got a generation that feel they are entitled to everything. Don't work? "I'm entitled to a house" have kids? "I'm entitled to free food" Really really like Games Workshop? "I'm entitled to be able to buy feth loads of them even though I'm a full time student"
Its a joke. Do what I do, and buy feth all. Dooleys car analogy was a good one.. you don't see me getting pissed off with Bentley because I cant afford one, and after all.. I really really really want one.
In the last few years I've bought NOTHING direct and new from GW.. I go on ebay mostly If I need anything, and my last and only recent purchase was DV for 50 odd quid from gifts for geeks and I went halves with a mate. All in I reckon I've spent about $100 on GW in.. I dunno, maybe 3 years? What the vast majority of you lot are doing, is bitching simply because you like 40k and you wish you had more of it... and a few years back before some suits took over it was much cheaper. Well that's called real life lads, suck on it.
Its actually got to the point where its almost pathetic to watch. I can forgive a teenager, but if most of you are the wrong side of 25 you need to re-evaluate how life works or you are headed for a bucket load of misery from now until you flop into the grave!
My favourite burrito place in California was awesome back in 2005. It was Freebirds at UCSB.. It had a hell of a reputation because It was great. Anyway, a few years later.. there are about ten of them, and the price has doubled. The cost of success, is to the detriment of the guys that got there early... such is life, be it your hobby, your food, or your favourite musician.. I mean.. yeah you got to see him with only 200 guys and it was $6 a tiekct... but now he is on TV and he only plays stadiums and its $60?! WHHHAAAAAAA!!
Now I make my own fething Burritos. Welcome to the real world men.. man up and deal with it.
And yes the moderators are entitled to their opinion, and no, its not a big deal if they allow their virtual powers to go their heads, they are only human after all... but lets have it said in the open rather than legions of PMs. Some of them are great, and some of them are about as impartial as the grandmaster of the Klu Klux Klan.
And funny thing, I reckon he wouldn't be on the fence either.
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We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
As to being priced out of the game: for the vet community, how are you being priced out? What happened to all the stuff you've been playing with for 5 editions?
I haven't bought a single thing for my Space Wolves in 6E and I have plenty of fun with the stuff I already had.
As much as I really want the wolves to get a flyer, I'm plenty fine with what I've got right now.
Bingo, but I cooled down and took you and Buzz off of ignore. As to me being priced out of Games Workshop games, I have 3 armies, worth at least 2000 points on my smallest army (Ultras are easily there, Imp Guard is easily 3000, and Iron Warriors are easily 4000). When 6th edition came out, it was my goal to learn to play my Chaos army. I played once under the old codex and enjoyed it. The new codex comes out and my army didn't change much at all, but in order to hold my own, I would need to buy at least 1 Heldrake, if not 2. This is an army that had 2 and a half defilers (with the parts to make the third), 9 obliterators and a vindicator (and technically a basilisk since my army was built under the 3rd ed codex), but the pieces I had became worse, or remained mediocre. So I couldn't update my army to 6th edition without some influx of cash into it for the "new hotness", I've played a handful of games and never made it past turn 3 before I was tabled... because everyone else I played had updated and tweaked for 6th, and my army was still living back in 4th and 5th, because they had the cash to update. Could I still attempt to play a beer and pretzels version of 40k? Could I ask my opponent to not play vehicles or flyers, as my army tends to have issues with the latter, and I tend to not take the former? I could, but then I'd be denying him the type of game he wants to play. So instead, I look at GW prices and just shake my head a bit, knowing that I won't be buying GW pieces because their price is already high (75 dollars for a static pose, unpainted model... for 75 bucks I could get a Master Grade Gundam model that at least has some movement to it), which is the crux of my issue, let alone the lack of table time I would get for my money (I play 40k now maybe once every 2 to 3 months.)
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
Which, in the category of the ethics of GW, means that GW is trying to obtain rights by misstatements, in a sense trying to steal from their own former artists. That is, because the art in question was done on commission without assignment of rights outside of a right of first publication, after these works appeared in White Dwarf once, they were the property of the artists. In order to sue, GW needs the assignment... which means they need to negotiate an entirely separate contract, and pay the artists. Which, one notes, they seem to be doing all they can to avoid.
That is all a bit longer then I originally intended, but I hope that it answers some questions.
So in order to have the assignment of rights outside of first publication, it needs to be explicitly stated in the contract, is that correct?
And based on Chaulk's declarative statement, it appears that the 'standard quo' for commission work of this type was for rights to only be held by the commssioner on first publication.
So GW is basically trying to convince Chaulk and other artists to sign over their complete publication ownership rights on some of these commissioned works without offering to pay them for it, which they 'should' be doing?
And because the letter indicates that they're trying to 'shore up records that may have been lost' and that the letter is actually an outcome of the Chapterhouse lawsuit, they're not providing the artists with the 'true' picture of why they need it, thus making them deceptive and unethical?
While all the time, GW could have just as easily said, "we're involved in a lawsuit, we'd like to buy from you the rights for these items as they're subject to copyright infringement in this suit" which would have been completely forthcoming and more ethical/fair?
cincydooley wrote: I've wracked my brain about how GW could use traditional marketing in the United States and without GW stores I don't know how it would work since their products aren't sold in normal US stores like Target or Walmart. Obviously print media makes the most sense, but without the GW stores, how do you direct them to make a purchase? From the website?
And on top of that, there are plenty of LGSs that I would NOT want a new gamer or a parent stepping into for their introduction. Sadly, too many offer examples of the worst our hobby has to offer; at least in a GW store it's a relatively safe experience.
These issues that people are having with GW are not made up.
Either you are intentionally ignoring the core arguments, or you are just honestly bypassing them, thereby assuming that everyone is just making them up.
It is not just about "How GW can make more sales." They don't need that help, they just need to stop acting clownass about thier perception and join the real world.
From thier actions, hostile and continued to be perceived as parasitic, they are in fact alienating both customers and LGS's. They have given the perception and the propaganda set fourth by the company, "That the "Pleabes" will pay whatever we set as a price...", and they have no compunction about letting you know that.
They claim to have a superior product, while at the same time verify that they are using substandard material.
They claim to be "The Best" when they sell incomplete products for the sake of making a quick buck, because the original price is oh so reasonable, that they need to sell more of nothing.
I can go on and on ad-hominum, but the main gist that you are giving is that you are ignoring, or willfully circumventing the points of issue.
And to answer your question about being "Priced out"....
You say you have old stuff for the game? What if I come back and tel you that to be competative, you NEED to come on into the local "One man GW store" and buy this flyer here, because it is so great, then while your at it you have to get the book to use it as a secondary product at an additional 30 bucks or so? Price irrelivent, what I'm asking you to buy the full product for two to three times the cost of the need for it. AND I'm telling you to buy it at a specific place, because you can't go down to your LGS and buy it there from your old pal that you usually buy your stuff from, and bought with a 30-40% discount.
And on the subject of what they do that ticks people off?
They are a hostile company. They treat thier players and employees like gak, and act as if they can do no wrong. They overcharge for shoddy craft products, and they intentionally overstep thier make in local markets and drive away business. If they find that they have a particularly storn area, they open up thier shop thier, suck dry the local market, then close shop to shuck and jive that it counts as a profit. The discarded unsold merchandise is destroyed and counted as profits/ spoilage, and in turn counted as an overall success.
As for the "GW experience", I have found in the past that it is the complete opposite. The GW store is full of the power-playing rules lawyering gakfest, and the LGS is full of a diverse set of characters that are there to have a good time.
And the answer to your question regarding the lawsuit-
Yes. exactly that. Instead, GW did what they arbitrarily do to anyone in the same fasion, C and D them and bully them into submission.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/22 14:19:16
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
mattyrm wrote: Now I make my own fething Burritos. Welcome to the real world men.. man up and deal with it.
Yeah! That's the spirit!
Imma gonna go make me my own Space Mar... oh wait I can't do that.
I'm sorry mattyrm, but "man up" doesn't constitute an effective rebuttal to "the prices are too high". Perhaps it's a good response to "I didn't have enough milk for breakfast this morning" or "I was stuck in the rain for almost an hour on the way home", but not to GW.
Alfndrate wrote: And for many people, being priced out of a game they enjoy is worse than not being able to afford it from the beginning.
This, more than anything else said here, is the heart of the issue. Which is an unfortunate circumstance.
Pretty much.
If I would care about the game, if I didn't enjoy the background and the fluff, the models and the community and if I wasn't a part of it and invested in it since the mid 1990's...then I wouldn't care about anything GW is doing.
People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.
Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair.
The consumer of a product makes a decision to purchase that product with a varying degree of information to hand. If the consumer is adding together the evidence presented and comes to the conclusion that the seller is adding too much pure margin to the product or that the product's retailing price exceeds the consumer's perceived worth of the product, then the consumer may well argue that the pricing is unfair to the consumer. If the mark up is a great deal higher than the processes and raw materials necessary to produce the product, you will find a decreasing number of consumers willing to pay for it as it passes out of the perceived worth scale of an increasing number of those consumers.
The decision to purchase or not purchase based on what's being asked vs what the consumer is willing to pay for the item is basic retail and follows a very easy logic to follow.
That's lovely, but what does any of that have to do with fairness?
Everything to do with the consumer's perception of whether or not they are being treated fairly by the supplier. If the consumer believes the supplier is falsely hiking the profit margin and creating scenarios forcing certain purchasing or indulging certain customers over others, then they can certainly state 'I do not believe this is a fair situation'.
Even if consumers are 100% wrong, just ask any company that has attempted to fight incorrect consumer perception with facts how that has worked out for them.
Ignore and anger your customers long enough, even if they are wrong, and you will hurt yourself in the process.
Grot 6 wrote: You say you have old stuff for the game? What if I come back and tel you that to be competative, you NEED to come on into the local "One man GW store" and buy this flyer here, because it is so great, then while your at it you have to get the book to use it as a secondary product at an additional 30 bucks or so? Price irrelivent, what I'm asking you to buy the full product for two to three times the cost of the need for it. AND I'm telling you to buy it at a specific place, because you can't go down to your LGS and buy it there from your old pal that you usually buy your stuff from, and bought with a 30-40% discount.
Honestly, I'd probably say, "prove it." And it would really depend on what you mean by "competitive." Now, bear in mind you're talking to a dude who's primary play group took 5E necrons to Adepticon because, "why not" and who's same playgroup took the "bankrupt space marines" that didn't have enough money to use vehicles to that same tournament a year later.
They are a hostile company. They treat thier players and employees like gak, and act as if they can do no wrong. They overcharge for shoddy craft products, and they intentionally overstep thier make in local markets and drive away business. If they find that they have a particularly storn area, they open up thier shop thier, suck dry the local market, then close shop to shuck and jive that it counts as a profit. The discarded unsold merchandise is destroyed and counted as profits/ spoilage, and in turn counted as an overall success.
I've never felt that GW has treated me poorly. Or really treated me in anyway, for that matter. Now, when I've interacted with GW employees, I've always been treated to politness and professionalism, and in the case of their design team members at Adepticon or Games Day, they've even been enthusiastic and friendly. I don't consider their price rises, or their lack of official rumor mongoring to be treating me poorly. Maybe that makes me a sucker.
mattyrm wrote: Now I make my own fething Burritos. Welcome to the real world men.. man up and deal with it.
Yeah! That's the spirit!
Imma gonna go make me my own Space Mar... oh wait I can't do that.
I'm sorry mattyrm, but "man up" doesn't constitute an effective rebuttal to "the prices are too high". Perhaps it's a good response to "I didn't have enough milk for breakfast this morning" or "I was stuck in the rain for almost an hour on the way home", but not to GW.
I gave other good ideas. Such as second hand models, or proxy models, or a recast off eBay, whatever.
The man up wasn't regarding the price, it was regarding the inevitable march towards popularity.
As I said, it's the same in every single aspect of life. I went to see the stereophonics at Boro town hall in 1995,great venue, cheap as feth, ten years later, they only do stadiums and its 50 quid for a ticket behind a concrete pillar.
If in twenty years time mantic are huge and Ronnie sells it and it gets floated, take one fething guess what happens.
I'm not saying man up because the price is high, I'm saying suck it up, because that's life, that's what happens, in this hobby or anything. Be it your favourite sarnie shop becoming a chain, your shoe maker becoming a franchise, or your favourite musician going platinum.
Mass success is to the detriment of the guys who were there at the beginning... Always has been. Why the feth are model painters such whiny entitled fething nerds when this gak happens to everyone, and it always has done?!
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
If you can't discuss fairness in absolute terms there is no reason to discuss it. Every customer is going to have a different opinion of what is fair. Can you really make a good argument that not pricing their product at cost plus 10% is unfair? It's a bunch of cheap little plastic soldiers for strange men to play with in dark rooms. You pay how much for it? The concept of fairness is so arbitrary and fluid that you can't pin it down in this scenario.
Again, if you dislike it, do not buy it. That means don't continue to spend X amount on GW and just accept that you'll get less. The only way you can cut into their profit margin is buy not buying any of their product and encouraging fellow gamers to do the same.
Now if you want to criticize GW, attacking them for bad business practices is fair game. GW has earned its bad reputation. Arguing about whether or not you have the right to buy a commodity for a fair price is pointless.
I had to rebuild both of the arms because the thin top portion didn't survive very much handling due to the relative to the size/weight of the gun on the lower portion.
Without addressing whether these actions are unethical in the lay fashion, I will proffer that, as an attorney, it's certainly true that one may do things that may be construed as "Inconsiderate", "Mean" and "bullying", but it is impermissible and 
