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I had gotten out of 40K for a while...married..kids...job...most of us have gone through a time like that. It all changed when I was on the road and beebopped into a book store and found Dan Abnett-Ravenor. I was looking for something to read that was not my run of the mill fantasy stuff and was interested enough to pick it up.

I am very glad that I did.

The books about Ravenor made the IOM so real...NOT just a bunch of super soldiers running around killing everything. It gave the whole IOM a depth...a dirt...it really showed that so much of the 'fluff' is a very thin vaneer over what IMO is a very very dark grimdark.

I can't disagree more with the statement that "40K is going stale particularly the Imperium of Man"

IMO it is more fresh and alive than ever before...the IOM is such a huge place...there is such a wealth of material to draw from and with the authors that are now working at Black Library, I anxiously await each and every HH book that comes along...and I go back and re-read a lot of them as i wait.

But, as to the 'fluff' if I might define 'fluff' as the official descriptions put out by GW. I can see that as becoming stale...I can see that.

I just can't see that the IOM is that way. There are too many other sources of vibrant description by too many extreemly talented authors for me to see it going stale. I have spent too much time on Calth; in the Helican Subsector; On the Eisenstein; consorting with demons on Cadia; feeling the nalwood stocks of the Tanith First and Only and many many many other places in the IOM for me to think that the IOM is stale.

But..I only have .02 and you just got it

Jayo'r wrote:
40k fluff is IMO really boring I much prefer the fantasy fluff. In 40k everyone is out for themselves there is no bonds of friendship which really doesn't seem like what humans would do. I know this is going to sound strange but to me fantasy fluff is a lot more realistic. The factions make allies with eachother they make treaty's. for instance the empire and the dwarfs have been like battle brothers for thousands of years

Lol, then obviously you have never read enough novels,.. Bonds of friendship are plenty! Even friendships between chapters exist, the guardsman have a lot of friends as well,.. It just aint that big of a role in 40 as it is in fantasy,...


Also in the 40k universe alliances are made between SM eldar tau and such,.. they just dont last as long

But i think i can see where you are going at,.. fantasy fluff is a bit more personal focussed, 40 does that less..

 Lynata wrote:
The "danger" I see is that a lot of fans have recently started to take them serious, word for word - and whilst such impressions are of course often coloured by one's fondness of their favourite faction, I also believe that the various novels, which portray such events in much greater detail and focus, are often regarded as "that's how it really happened" (and I well remember a fellow dakkanaut recently argueing on exactly these grounds for why novels should be held in higher regard than codex fluff).
It's the nature of this form of storytelling.
And part of the reason for why I count myself amongst the "should've stayed a mystery" crowd when it comes to the HH.

In complete agreement with the above.

In a certain sense, GW wants to have their cake and eat it too.

We've often heared the refrain, "its a Setting/Background, not a Story" in order to emphasize the fact that there is no "meta-plot" - there is no road map with a set stage of series of events that eventually lead to some sort of grand ultimate conclusion (like a TV show or a comic book). Mostly because a "conclusion" like that would be the end of the line.

Nor has GW liked the idea of parcelling out pieces of a continuing story, precisely because they'll have to go through a reboot event at some point in time as literally every other media with a "continuing story without end" has shown us - from RPGs, TV shows, heck, i think i said this once - American Sitcoms and Spanish Telenovelas.

Its rather difficult to try and put together a storyline that will span decades (real world time that is) that will still have a viable product that will seem fresh (especially if someone does a move which the rest of the fanion dislikes).

So yeah, we get tossed the line "Its on us."

..And then the HH happens - which IMHO is simply their way of tapping that desire for a continuous storyline.

What literally started off as a 3 page summary in 3rd Edition Warhammer, a few throwaway lines about an Emperor, suddenly becomes the basis for a multi-novel storyline where the line editors are precisely baiting us with a "what happens next" storytelling mechanic. We all know the Heresy is going to be stretched out in terms of its storyline till they can squeeze every last pound/dollar/yen from us.

We're even seeing special collection editions for a series that hasn't even ended!

In terms of "fluff," we're also seeing a shift from realistic characters to larger-than-life beings. Granted, someone like Gaunt or Ciaphas may not be exactly "normal," (i use them as examples of popular protagonists) and are obviously protected by plot-armor. But they aren't exactly the DemiGods that the Primarchs are.

With that focus on "super super" human beings (as opposed to just some SMs or CSMs), there is an upsurge in the expectation for what people will see.. Heck, i'm pretty sure Draigo probably fed into that desire for a character people could focus on who is "like a Primarch" but not.

Its this almost fanatical concentration of interest on the "Super Powerful" characters that makes me wonder. In a strange sense, not a single character (heck arguably even the characters one's own group creates) has ever been given that much.....agency.... in affecting the universe.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
Its true, thats the reason they started the Horus Heresy series in the first place. Its also why I think they'll advance the plotline after they finish with the Horus Heresy. Its also why they've made the Chaos characters more likable, before when it was fun to root for the Imperium they were just comic book badguys stoped by superhuman holy warriors. Its also the reason they introduced the Nids Necrons and Tau.

I'm not sure what it is but the Imperium has just become so 1dimensional, it use to be kind of deep, humans doing what they had to survive in a hellish galaxy dedicated to thier death, I was an Imperial fan in times long past. Now they make me want to puke, the Imperial guard are just so pathetic, the mind of the Imperial Guardman is usually split between ignorance and cowardess, the astartes are marginally better, the only fully fleshed Imperial characters are the ones in the Inquisition.

Read the novels and even the rpg's. The IG feel cowardess cause they are people like you and me.

Jayo'r wrote:
40k fluff is IMO really boring I much prefer the fantasy fluff. In 40k everyone is out for themselves there is no bonds of friendship which really doesn't seem like what humans would do. I know this is going to sound strange but to me fantasy fluff is a lot more realistic. The factions make allies with eachother they make treaty's. for instance the empire and the dwarfs have been like battle brothers for thousands of years

There are no alliances cause neither side likes each other at all. Doesn't mean they won't work alongside each other against a greater foe.

Selym wrote:
I agree that the IOM is one dimensional, because all the good characters are the same person:

Started out as a normal human.
Recruited into an IOM military power.
Rose through the ranks quickly.
Has masses of faith in humanity and the emprah.
Fought in a particularly spectacular battle.
Now leads his forces in the name of all things good and happy, creating victories everywhere.

Cause 40k is a tabletop wargame. Glad you noticed. The novels and rpg's show that the Imperium is not one-dimensional.

That's why I swapped to chaos. When it comes to 40k, I have some form of split personality problem, so I just jump between the four gods to keep myself entertained

And Chaos doings of fighting each other and the Imperium is different from being one-dimensional?

 Psienesis wrote:

Why would daemons have a particular hatred for the Eldar, who spend most of their time masking their psychic presence or using it in roundabout, stealthy ways? It doesn't really make any narrative sense for what's come before.

Well the Daemons go after Eldar cause their warp presence are the shiniest in the Warp plus Slaanesh.

I agree on the stupidity of GW and how they've wanked the marines. But I do believe that SM's should be powerful cause of all the enhancements they got. Doesn't mean though that they should be at the level of Draigo which is just stupid and pure spank.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Selym wrote:
I agree that the IOM is one dimensional, because all the good characters are the same person:

Started out as a normal human.
Recruited into an IOM military power.
Rose through the ranks quickly.
Has masses of faith in humanity and the emprah.
Fought in a particularly spectacular battle.
Now leads his forces in the name of all things good and happy, creating victories everywhere.

Cause 40k is a tabletop wargame. Glad you noticed. The novels and rpg's show that the Imperium is not one-dimensional.

That's why I swapped to chaos. When it comes to 40k, I have some form of split personality problem, so I just jump between the four gods to keep myself entertained

And Chaos doings of fighting each other and the Imperium is different from being one-dimensional?

Yes. It is four dimensional.
Nurgle, Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Khorne!

Selym wrote:

Yes. It is four dimensional.
Nurgle, Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Khorne!

So no real difference then other than Chaos gak.

You're forgetting Necoho, Malal/Malice and Zuvassin.

 Psienesis wrote:
You're forgetting Necoho, Malal/Malice and Zuvassin.

I've heard of Malal, but not the other two...
Hmm... I shall re-read my heretical scriptures...

Heh, it's two minor Chaos Gods introduced in an old WHFRP campaign set ("Something Rotten in Kislev", if I remember correctly).

Necoho was the Unbeliever, the Chaos God of Atheism, basically.

Zuvassin was the Undoer, basically the foil to any plan by Tzeentch, or any other being. The embodiment of Murphy's Law, and capable of causing any plot, plan, production or design to have some fatal flaw...

 Psienesis wrote:
Heh, it's two minor Chaos Gods introduced in an old WHFRP campaign set ("Something Rotten in Kislev", if I remember correctly).

Necoho was the Unbeliever, the Chaos God of Atheism, basically.

Zuvassin was the Undoer, basically the foil to any plan by Tzeentch, or any other being. The embodiment of Murphy's Law, and capable of causing any plot, plan, production or design to have some fatal flaw...

Hmm... That's quite interesting
Maybe I should make an army based on one of those

To keep the stale away:

Keeping the background alive: Dan Abnett has been a fun writer, his books have created great characters in the 40k backdrop.

Emotionally invest: Mod / piece together a character model for your army, paint it to your best ability, name it. Keep a short record of the good, bad and comical that happens to that model. Expand this method as far as you want and not feel like a crazy person.

Make it look cool: Keep a common theme or method for all your armies and models so they all look good together on the table (base has a single common color, certain types of weapons have the same color glow or view ports on vehicles). If you decide to play Apocolypse you will be happy with this decision.

Add detail: Make some 40k themed terrain, make counters, or objective models. Some people add kill markers on vehicles based on games played. Buy a model of your friend's general and make a mini diarama of your general laying a smack-down.

Try something different: Played chess with my army once. Some of the 40k video games are quite fun.

Environment: Where you sit down to make stuff; good music, good drink/snack, good lighting, good chair make sure you are happy with where you are and what you are doing. If it feels forced you probably should be doing something else, so go do it. The models are patient.

My list.

Works for me.

I always thought of the background as a framework for the player to connect his or her army into the setting, no more no less.

The media that they provide are indicative of certain aspects of the Imperium, but it does not speak for all of the Imperium.

 Psienesis wrote:
You're forgetting Necoho, Malal/Malice and Zuvassin.

And you're forgetting Nuffle.

I think that one died off after the Leagues kinda up and vanished and new sports moved in on Blood Bowl's former territory. He might be scavving around the edges of the Warp, what with squig-bol and Dark Eldar gladiator games being a thing, but I'm largely convinced that he's been broken up into a mob of fourth-rate Lesser Daemons of Sport.

Personally I miss representation of Imperium. I mean, we have all read how terrible xenos, heretics and deamons are, it's time to see how ridiculously powerful Imperium can be. Let it them to be arch-villians, apocalyptic forces descending upon their enemies, bringing destruction with brutal efficiency. Let it be shown that human's cunning, strength and wits can do. Let those poor bastards feel how painfully efficient Imperial guard are, how lighting-fast and deadly space marines can be and on top of that and on top of that, put some salt in their wounds. Smash their hopes of technological superiority with arrival of adeptus mechanicus forces those inhuman logic and efficiency that will make your every effort statistically unfavorable to you.
Let it be seen, that every failure of your forces carries massive price toll on civilian population which will be duly cleansed by Imperium. Let it be shown that terror they can be. How your victory is nothing more, but pyrrhic one even on decisive annihilation of your enemies. Show it the truth of the forge worlds how they can to manufacture staggering amounts of supplies, vehicles and equipment to massively out-produce you. Show it how uncaring Imperium truly are. How loses are nothing to them. Let it be seen that planets are the only practical way to sting the Imperium.
In the end, show exterminatus in action. I want to see how they force you to heavily defend a planet with ground forces and then, after naval battle they decide that a loss of material in order to acquire their prize simply is not efficient enough and they obliterate you from orbit, keeping they massive reserves of troops fresh for next conquests into your territory. Just for one damn time, show Imperium for how far they are ahead of you. At least once, show them at the grand scale at their very best.


Btw: there is an excellent novel which features similar story. It's called: "Pawns of Chaos".