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So, with all the rumors swirling about Tau towards the summer (allegedly), I'm thinking they might be something fun and a nice break from all the Power Armor in front of me at the moment.

Instead of loading up on all the stuff that's going to be (potentially) overhauled, which unfortunately takes Crisis, Stealth and Broadside suits out of the picture. And it would be my hope and assumption that they aren't going to overhaul the tanks.

With aaaaaaallllllll that to say, is a Tau army playable to some level of survival, without any suit support?
So you'd be looking at Ethereals, Fire Warriors, Devilfish, Kroot, Gun Drones, Piranhas, Hammerheads, and Skyrays.

Could this/would this work? Is it worth it (as a prep for the new models releases some months down the road)?
Thanks!
T-

Well you will always need 1 suit for the +1 commander but you can always get a awesome forgewold suit that im sure will still look good when the new ones are released (might only be saying that because i have 3 )

I think it could be fun to build bu a 750 list before the release, i dont think its feasible going any higher without suits or broadsides and tanks. From what i hear stealth suits arnt going to change and you wont need an awful amount of anti flyer/tank at 750.

How about this (and im just being brief about to head home from work)

1 commander
1 ethereal
3x8 Fire warriors
2x3 stealth suits
10 kroot or some vespid.

Could be a nice skirmish force until the "big guns" are released

Ethereals are probably going to stay single models, but currently they are probably the worst unit in the game. And it's not like you play it, he dies, no tears shed. He runs the risk of making every one of your units run away and die.

Firewarriors are a kit with two weapons, one of them is completely useless now and the other is basically a bolter. The Firewarriors are probably going to get revamped entirely and probably won't even the troop of choice (ie the troop that's the least bad) in the new codex, especially if the crisis suit troops is true.

Kroot are terrible now, but may get better. Rumors I've seen indicate they are having a hard time making Kroot units not die and/or too expensive.

Piranhas... I dunno. Not terrible and not great, but somewhere between.

Hammerhead and skyrays will probably be out shined by the other heavy support choices, like they do now. I really can't see the Hammerhead becoming better than the broadsides without nerfing the broadsides railgun.

But currently, you could run a list with only the mandatory crisis suit HQ. The odds are against you though. Spamming Firewarriors is a terrible waste of points and they'll die in droves. Just remember that it will only take 3 wounds on a max size squad to cause a morale check and it'll cost you 130 points for 12 FW with one LD8 character. This will give you a lot of shots, that really won't impress anyone. I'd suggest getting tetras or Pathfinders, but the rumor for markerlights makes it appear that these will be useless.

Really the only thing in that list that would stand a chance would be the hammerhead, and that's a lot of money and points for 3 single shot guns or 3 templates.

Basically if you run this list the entire game you'll be picking up very fragile units wishing for a crisis suit.

One of the issues with running zero suits is that suits are the only source of massed AP2 the tau codex has.
Suits tend to have the best souces of mid strength shooting and AP2.

You can get fusion blasters on stealth suits and piranhas, some high strength shooting on hammerheads. And you can to some extant substitute massed S5 in place of AP2.

I've run suit-less tau for over a year now.

It's worked wonderfully against everything but massed TEQ armies.

I tend to run 4 units of fire warriors, a team of broadsides, shadowsun, a ethereal, two hammerheads and 2-3 pathfinder teams, plus whatever else I feel like.

It's devestating, the amount of str 5 you pump out, plus all the railguns, two large blasts and markerlight support kills stuff dead.

I also take units of 20 kroot, krootox are excellent counts as missile pods btw.

One trick I figured out was seeker missiles. These buggers, while somewhat expensive one shot missiles destroy things. Any nid player I play is quite mad when I fire 12 of them on turn one plus 5 railguns.

The problem with no suit tau is you need to be thinking ahead and have extra firepower when something goes wrong. I tend to apply 2-3 of my fire warrior units against a single hefty target to make sure it goes down, using my devilfishes to tank shock and other stuff as well. Proper usage of gun drones for objective contesting and blocking also help.

I also use a single piranha for added support, as well as small stealth suit teams with a fusion blaster in deep strike for that extra anti-tank.

Keep in mind shadowsun counts as a fire cast HQ that you need to take.

Also don't forget units of 20 kroot infiltrating is quite deadly, nothing like 40 rapid fire shots from a unit only slightly more expensive than 12 fire warriors.

Finally the ethereal. He's necessary to keep everyone in place, and since he makes the unit he joins fearless, the broadside team I take never goes anywhere. Furthermore, I've never had my ethereal killed in battle just by keeping him out of LOS of enemy vindicators and stuff. It's really hard to kill one guy who's with 4 shield drones and 3 TEQ dudes in a ruin.

Hey, thanks for all the replies, I definitely appreciate it.


You guys have made it a difficult decision! On one hand, it could be a challenging army to play, but there's still that reliance on suit-based units to fit one situation or another.

I'm not sure if it'd be worth getting into this far from the still up-in-the-air release of the new book/models.
I might have to find something else for my 3+ armor save blues haha.

Thanks again!
T-

Well think of it this way:

If you can play and win without buying battlesuits, then when the codex gets re-released and the new battlesuits come out, you won't have old crappy battlesuits lying around.

The problem isn't that XV-8 series just provide ap2, they provide almost all of your options. Without them, you have s5ap5, and kroot. Three hammerheads will draw ALL of your opponents AT fire, so maximize effectiveness and survivability. Disruption pods, claymores (I forget what Tau call them) etc.

Pirhanas provide very fast melta platforms, but are tricky to use. They can be fantastic however.

If you roll with the FW, the Remoras are fun.

It's very hard. You lose the flexibility to do surprising things.

However, at lower points, that much s5 dakka is awesome.

maceria wrote:
If you roll with the FW, the Remoras are fun.

Remoras are garbage. Way too expensive, way too little firepower. Now that Barracudas are cheaper there's no reason to ever take Remoras.



As for suit-less Tau in general, I've tried it. You NEED Piranha TX-42s and/or Barracudas though, otherwise you just don't have enough of an army. The core of your army will be three Hammerheads (IMO railgun or fusion cannon), with TX-42s and Barracudas giving you your STR 7 spam that crisis suits would normally have. Then spam the hell out of drone sentry turrets in your troops slot. Finally, you might consider allies: AP 2 is your biggest hole, and IG allies with a CCS and plasma veteran Vendetta will help a lot with that.

Peregrine wrote:
Remoras are garbage. Way too expensive, way too little firepower. Now that Barracudas are cheaper there's no reason to ever take Remoras.

This guy thinks everything is garbage.

juraigamer wrote:Well think of it this way:

If you can play and win without buying battlesuits, then when the codex gets re-released and the new battlesuits come out, you won't have old crappy battlesuits lying around.

I totally agree with this guy. Have some fun at low points with mass S5 and hold out for release. At least then you will have a nice fire warrior base (which i think will still be a decent troop choice even if the rumors of Crisis as troops are true), then you can just concentrate on buying crisis suits, giant mechs and all the new toys that come out for Tau.

 Messy0 wrote:
This guy thinks everything is garbage.

No, I just think that garbage units are garbage. It's not my fault that GW keeps printing terrible units.

And yes, the Remora is garbage. It costs almost as much as a Barracuda but has pathetic firepower in comparison, and its only "advantage" is the stealth field. However, since it has pathetic firepower nobody is ever going to shoot at a Remora and the stealth field is completely redundant. Remoras were bad when Barracudas were a 220 point heavy support unit, but now that Barracudas are cheap and occupy the same fast attack slot as a Remora the Remora has no purpose.

In short: if you want a Tau flyer, get a Barracuda. Never use a Remora for anything but a painting project.

It's a very interesting concept, but it does to a competitive Tau army what a crowbar does to a kneecap. Your firewarriors have only one weapon choice, Rifles or Carbines, and if you're using carbines, you're too damn close. Or you have Kroot, which are slightly more survivable as a unit than Howling banshees, but they still die faster than a snail in a salt shaker. I don't know how Vespids do, but in 5th they were garbage, from what I remember.
Without your suits, you're also limited to a very clunky tank for your S10 AP1 goodness for popping open transports, and that'll be your ONLY option, for better or for worse, and you'd only have three of those shots every turn, assuming that you don't have one or more of those puppies explode before they're able to get those transports popped open. Maybe a smart missile system can do more, but I don't remember the profile. Overall, I think it'd be a neat challenge army, but a frustrating army for gameplay, as Firewarriors have no good way to even pop open power armour, as the only plasma in the army are on those ever-loved Crisis Suits.
I'd say give it a try, but don't expect a flawless victory.

The only two viable ways to take out power armor is to use sniper drone teams or vespid. Sniper drone teams take out a slot for railguns, were as vespid take a slot for pathfinders.

While sniper drone teams are stronger, longer ranged and have better survivablilty, vespid are faster and provide more shots per point, though at one less str and 1/2 the range (which doesn't matter when you can move 12)

Add in markerlight support and a single squad of vespid hiding behing something can pop out and blast something to bits. I've lost track of how many monsterous creatures my single squad has downed.

Then again, more fire warriors mean more saves taken, meaning more possible dead marines.

 juraigamer wrote:
vespid are faster and provide more shots per point, though at one less str and 1/2 the range (which doesn't matter when you can move 12)

Because you always want a weak and expensive unit within rapid fire range of the enemy.

The other viable way to kill power armor is torrent of wounds. The same way everyone else does it.

Nothing new to add for tactics, but it would make for an interesting list ...

HQ (100)
1) Shas'el
- Fusion Blaster, Plasma Rifle, Target Array, Hard-wired Multi-tracker, Hard-wired Black Sun Filter

TROOPS (340)
1) 6x Firewarriors
2) 20x Kroot
3) 20x Kroot

FAST ATTACK (210)
1) 3x Piranhas
- Fusion Blasters, Target Arrays

HEAVY SUPPORT (350)
1) Hamerhead Gunship
- Railgun, SMS, Toys
2) Hammerhead Gunship
- Railgun, SMS, Toys

You need one mandatory XV8 commander, so might as well kit him out with the AP2 that you'd be lacking. Piranhas and Hammerheads will at least put up a decent fight in terms of anti-tank (you can always find the points for target locks on the Piranhas). Firewarrior team stays in reserve before hopping on to grab an objective. Kroot infiltrate and start causing havoc on turn 1 with 40 S4 rapid-fire shots or 60 S4 attacks in CC each.

Problem with that list is that it's a turn 1 alpha strike with no bite and you have to go first or it'll die.

The Kroot will be left defenseless if the enemy happens to put their units inside an A11 transport and will die to return fire unless getting really lucky with an enemy parking within 12" of a forest.

The warlord will be an easy secondary objective. Alone and with only 1 24" range shot. Really the best way to handle this is with massed small arms fire. At most he could kill 1 TEQ per turn while taking a lot of fire back.

The Piranhas with fusion blasters are going to be three one shot vehicles before getting shot and assaulted. I'd say they still make a good blocking unit, but there isn't anything in the list worth defending.

After Kroot and Piranha go down in flames then it's a simple disembark and walk towardst the tanks. If the Hammerheads get lucky they would kill another 2 MEQ each before the enemy gets in close.

The only real advantage I see to a no suit list is that it leaves your opponent wondering about what is even worth shooting at. For a long range army there are fragile units that need to be close to do anything (Vespid, Kroot, Stealth suits, and Piranha).

New codex's have a habit of reversing what is good in the codex (I guess this makes people buy more stuff, where their former game-winner's get outshined by something that wasn't so good last book, or something brand new)

As such, playing an army that is not currently super-viable, might mean that your new codex makes this army much better than currently viable lists, so you won't have to rush and buy new models like most will.

I'd go with what are the staples of the tau army. Fire warrior's are not going anywhere, and I imagine that they will completely revamp the ethereal, seeing as how currently very few people own them.

At low point totals, the sniper team can be a good option. 3 rail rifles gives you some mid strength fire...

For 750 I would build a greater good sacrificial command suit.
A flamer and fusion gun or doubling one or the other.

XV8
3 Firewarrior squads
1 or 2snipers
perhaps a pathfinder squad or stealthsuit with markerlight drones...

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
vespid are faster and provide more shots per point, though at one less str and 1/2 the range (which doesn't matter when you can move 12)

Because you always want a weak and expensive unit within rapid fire range of the enemy.

I take it you've never seen what 11 BS 5 str 5 ap 3 ignoring cover shots can do to MEQ buddies.

By the time that happens, enough threats are already down to were it's not a problem. Furthermore vespid can jump into terrain and get a nice cover save, along with re-rolling their dangerous tests.

Sniper drones are simply too static to provide much help to many tau players, and let's not forget if anything that ignores cover shoots them, they dead.

 juraigamer wrote:

I take it you've never seen what 11 BS 5 str 5 ap 3 ignoring cover shots can do to MEQ buddies.

Killing one squad? That's all nice and well, but it's still terribly points inefficient. Especially since you just loaded the scenario to give you exactly what you wanted. So hitting a unit with 4 markerlights (I'm being nice and assuming that they're in 5+ cover) means you're shooting with 8 pathfinders. Two full squads. But then...

 juraigamer wrote:

By the time that happens, enough threats are already down to were it's not a problem. Furthermore vespid can jump into terrain and get a nice cover save, along with re-rolling their dangerous tests.

So you're getting to add in that multiple threats are down, but you still keep two weak squads at full strength? Odds are that you'll probably end up getting that squad knocked down a bit before they can really get within weapons range, if not vespids then the pathfinders.. If they get within weapons range, it will hopefully be an isolated unit that won't have another squad ready to move up and shoot the bugs apart. And remember that premeasuring is in, so a smart player would make sure that his units are about 12.2" away from that terrain you're obviously going to hop into.

Maybe if you held them in reserves and hope to pick off a few objective holders backfield and really needed an expendable unit to push up field. They're still expensive with an odd statline and gun. I know they're a crud unit from a 4th edition codex but when armies can field twin-linked 18" plasma guns or flying AP3 flamers, it just makes our anti-MEQ firepower look silly. I'm sure that the points spent on vespid would find more use on even Firewarriors.

 Peregrine wrote:

maceria wrote:
If you roll with the FW, the Remoras are fun.

Remoras are garbage. Way too expensive, way too little firepower. Now that Barracudas are cheaper there's no reason to ever take Remoras.



As for suit-less Tau in general, I've tried it. You NEED Piranha TX-42s and/or Barracudas though, otherwise you just don't have enough of an army. The core of your army will be three Hammerheads (IMO railgun or fusion cannon), with TX-42s and Barracudas giving you your STR 7 spam that crisis suits would normally have. Then spam the hell out of drone sentry turrets in your troops slot. Finally, you might consider allies: AP 2 is your biggest hole, and IG allies with a CCS and plasma veteran Vendetta will help a lot with that.

Quick question Peregrine, as I am not too familiar with the Tau forgeworld stuff (outside of tetras which I am yet to purchase) what is it that TX-42s offer over regular pirahna's?

 Krellnus wrote:
Quick question Peregrine, as I am not too familiar with the Tau forgeworld stuff (outside of tetras which I am yet to purchase) what is it that TX-42s offer over regular pirahna's?

I don't remember if they still count as open topped, but they're just an upgrade to a standard Piranha. Lose the gundrones and Fusion blaster and you can swap it out with twin linked missile pods or rail rifles. Mostly I've understood that people take the missile pod version because they're so much more useful and the range/versatility works well on such a mobile platform.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I'd hold off on the tetras honestly. The Tau codex could only be a month or two away and the rumored change to markerlights may make the unit's usefulness change significantly. Maybe to the point where another FW FAQ would be required to field it.

 Krellnus wrote:
Quick question Peregrine, as I am not too familiar with the Tau forgeworld stuff (outside of tetras which I am yet to purchase) what is it that TX-42s offer over regular pirahna's?

+1 side armor (they're still open-topped) and a choice of a twin-linked missile pod/fusion gun/plasma rifle/rail rifle. All you lose is the gun drones, so the TX-42 turns a movement blocker into a dedicated gun tank like the land speeder. They're kind of questionable in lists where you have lots of crisis suits since crisis suits bring those guns with better point efficiency, but if you're doing a suit-less list they're vital as your only source of those weapons.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:
Quick question Peregrine, as I am not too familiar with the Tau forgeworld stuff (outside of tetras which I am yet to purchase) what is it that TX-42s offer over regular pirahna's?

+1 side armor (they're still open-topped) and a choice of a twin-linked missile pod/fusion gun/plasma rifle/rail rifle. All you lose is the gun drones, so the TX-42 turns a movement blocker into a dedicated gun tank like the land speeder. They're kind of questionable in lists where you have lots of crisis suits since crisis suits bring those guns with better point efficiency, but if you're doing a suit-less list they're vital as your only source of those weapons.

That's sounds fairly decent, thanks for the answer Peregrine.

 Krellnus wrote:

Quick question Peregrine, as I am not too familiar with the Tau forgeworld stuff (outside of tetras which I am yet to purchase) what is it that TX-42s offer over regular pirahna's?

Everything. I think they have better armor, BS and weapon options, and come in cheaper to boot.

Not sure it would work. I played tau with no crisis suits or broadsides, but it was 8 years ago and relied on shock value of raining seeker missiles from every unit that could take a markerlight. Worked well first time someone saw it, after that was done. With the changes to the meta of the game and threats you must deal with it isn't really possible to play Tau without some of those units, you will simply lack the quality of firepower they can bring.

I feel like it could work with as much fire warriors as you can. Also at least 2 squads of 20 kroot with 10 hounds, 200 pts for a squad that is imo pt for pt better than an ork boy.

I dont play with fw because I don't think their allowed in tournies right? So against strong lists like demons and the like, you can have to solid fire bases splitting up your forces, which is what you need.

You will definitely need broadsides though for anti tank, nothing else comes close to reliable. Maybe krootox in one unit so at least can outflank. I think 3 squads of path finders with rail rifles might do something lol.

 Mr. DK wrote:
I dont play with fw because I don't think their allowed in tournies right?

Depends on the tournament. FW units are part of the standard game according to GW, but some TOs have a house rule that they aren't permitted. The only way to know for sure is to ask whether the people running a specific event you're interested in have that house rule or not.

And in this case FW units are vital to making the concept work. Without TX-42s/Barracudas/etc it's a hopeless cause, you can't get enough heavy weapons with three Hammerheads as your only units with more than a pulse rifle.