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Time was having a high Initiative and tons of strong attacks made you nigh invulnerable in cc against lesser, slower creatures not being able to strike back.

However, pile in rules now ensure that low initiative models will always get to strike, as long as they have more models to pile in with. (Orks...)

Is there really any point in being high int anymore unless fighting MSUs?

Winning challenges. A character that strikes last usually doesnt strike at all in my experience.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
Winning challenges. A character that strikes last usually doesnt strike at all in my experience.

It's still important for ICs, yes. But against multi-wounds its rare they die in one round. How much does winning a challenge help you win the combat though?

Nope.

Also, you missed something even worse. If your opponent is spread out, and you get into close combat and kill enough of them that they can't manage to make it into base contact with a pile-in move, then the close combat just ends. Having a 6" gap isn't as rare as GW thinks.

I've seen with my own eyes a juggerlord charge in, kill 3 guardsmen, and have the combat just end due to casualties. The next turn, the juggerlord was just shot to death at point blank range.

Also, this makes Crowe pretty much pointless against slower stuff. Yeah, he still gets cleansing flame (which you can now deny), but once said cleansing flame kills the couple of people in base contact with him, then he doesnt' actually get to do any damage with his sword...

Just another CC nerf in a very, very long line of them in 6th ed.

Also, high int IC's not in challenges still die to strikeback due to pile in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
Nope.

Also, you missed something even worse. If your opponent is spread out, and you get into close combat and kill enough of them that they can't manage to make it into base contact with a pile-in move, then the close combat just ends. Having a 6" gap isn't as rare as GW thinks.

I've seen with my own eyes a juggerlord charge in, kill 3 guardsmen, and have the combat just end due to casualties. The next turn, the juggerlord was just shot to death at point blank range.

Also, this makes Crowe pretty much pointless against slower stuff. Yeah, he still gets cleansing flame (which you can now deny), but once said cleansing flame kills the couple of people in base contact with him, then he doesnt' actually get to do any damage with his sword...

Just another CC nerf in a very, very long line of them in 6th ed.

Crowe has always sucked.

In the previous case, how many guard can he possibly slay? 3" pile in at I5, 3" pile in at I3. What, ten guardsmen?

Initiative meant little in 5ed when facing orks and the like because they'd pile in initially 6", casualties could be pulled from anywhere and often times you'd still get whacked with the same number of attacks. Also any model that was determined to be engaged at the start of combat could strike blows as long as they were alive at their I step, between that and how you just pulled the casualties you wanted almost ensured models got their attacks unless you wiped the unit.

At least in 6ed between how casualties are pulled and shorter range and timing of pile ins it is possible to cause casualties and take none in return. Or severely limit the attacks back based purely on positioning and initiative (rather then just wiping the unit). I'd say its better now but not by much.

You can run into an overkill situation mentioned above but its a lot harder then Ailaros makes it out to be.

If a single model kills 3 guys then the absolute farthest away the next model can be is just shy of 9" (assuming small base unit, coherency has been maintained and is not broken due to shooting casualties). It just so happens that pile ins will cover that distance (3" at lower initiative pile in and then 3" each unit in assault at combats end). So its possible but situational. Against a horde, it's more likely they will not be spread 2" apart in a chain.

I had a juggerlord chop himself out of combat by killing 8 of 10 assault marines. Then he got shot to death.

It sort of sucked.

 Ailaros wrote:
Nope.

Also, you missed something even worse. If your opponent is spread out, and you get into close combat and kill enough of them that they can't manage to make it into base contact with a pile-in move, then the close combat just ends. Having a 6" gap isn't as rare as GW thinks.

Woah, can you show me in the book where this is?

It's true that close combat can end if they can't make it to base contact but I've never had that happen. I play in a fairly large game group too and I've never seen it happen either.

I either play Sisters (Where assault doesn't matter unless you're using Celestine) or my Assaulty Marines or Assaulty eldar. I end up in fights all the time with them.

Never have I seen an enemy fail to make it back into assault range.

High I is even more important now, since you kill in a line and then work your way further out. In 5th if you killed tonnes of Gaunts they'd get pulled from the back and you'd still get the millions of Gaunt attacks to the face.

Now, if you assault really well they have to pull the closest models so that when the remainder of the squad sweeps in they are typically less numerious than before making the strike back easier to handle.

So, let's look at page 22 of the rulebook.

In the charge phase, all you do is move the attacking models by the amount they rolled to get into close combat. Pile-in doesn't happen until the fight sub-phase.

In the fight sub-phase, everything happens in initiative order. So, let's say you've got some I5 guys that for some reason haven't made it into 2" of something. They get a 3" move at the beginning of their fight phase.

Then, said I5 guys kill a bunch of guardsmen. Let's say that it's a bit over 6" of them. This is actually pretty easy to achieve against properly displaced units. It could be (and I've seen it be) literally as few as three infantry models killed.

Then, we go to I3, where those guardsmen get to make their pile-in move. But now scoot just down the page to this little gem:

If both players' Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost.

Can the guardsmen's 3" pile in move bring them into contact? No. If both the guardsmen and the enemy unit piled in, could they make contact? No.

Therefore, the assault just ends, right there and then. Both sides consolidate.

GW does say that it's "very unlikely" that units are going to be killed in assault in such a way where models will be more than 6" apart in any initiative step, but clearly they lacked creativity, because I've seen this on multiple occasions now.

Well, if you assault your way out of combat with slow models, then they can just shoot and charge you next turn.. I'd say that that's worse than killing off a bunch and then taking return attacks without charge bonuses then killing off the front line and getting shot up and charged right back for your efforts. Especially with things like shoota boyz. You eat the overwatch, then kill the front line, giving them an additional round of shooting and letting them charge for +1 attack and strength. Unless your unit is so awesome that it can clear out the whole front line again after facing full bs shooting and w/o charge bonuses, but i can't think of many that can.

 Ailaros wrote:
Nope.
Just another CC nerf in a very, very long line of them in 6th ed.

sooo long

And the worst part about it is that there's nothing you can do about it. All your opponent needs to do is spread way out and they've given you the option of either not charging, or charging and just killing a couple of dudes.



Put another way, foot armies, and especially hordes can basically just nullify close combat.

It's almost as if they were fliers...

 Ailaros wrote:
So, let's look at page 22 of the rulebook.

In the charge phase, all you do is move the attacking models by the amount they rolled to get into close combat. Pile-in doesn't happen until the fight sub-phase.

In the fight sub-phase, everything happens in initiative order. So, let's say you've got some I5 guys that for some reason haven't made it into 2" of something. They get a 3" move at the beginning of their fight phase.

Then, said I5 guys kill a bunch of guardsmen. Let's say that it's a bit over 6" of them. This is actually pretty easy to achieve against properly displaced units. It could be (and I've seen it be) literally as few as three infantry models killed.

Then, we go to I3, where those guardsmen get to make their pile-in move. But now scoot just down the page to this little gem:

If both players' Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together, the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost.

Can the guardsmen's 3" pile in move bring them into contact? No. If both the guardsmen and the enemy unit piled in, could they make contact? No.

Therefore, the assault just ends, right there and then. Both sides consolidate.

GW does say that it's "very unlikely" that units are going to be killed in assault in such a way where models will be more than 6" apart in any initiative step, but clearly they lacked creativity, because I've seen this on multiple occasions now.

This is much harder than you think. In your example you would pile in at i5, then the guard at i3. Then determine combat results and if the guard stick around(don't run or get swept). Then you pile in another 3" and so do the guardsman at the end of combat. Tht means you need to kill over 9" of guardsman, have them not break. Then combat will end.

Ailaro, would that not result in checking combat resolution, not combat consolidation. That is usualy not good for the loosing part.

It's almost as if they were fliers...

Quote... of the day.

This is...truly awful.

"Sorry, you performed your task too well. Sure you went through hell to get in CC in the first place, but now it's over and you get a melta blast to the face. Pick IG or Crons next time!"

Breng77 wrote:This is much harder than you think.

Seriously, look at that picture I posted:



That lascannon team in the front is on a 60mm base, and the next guy behind it is 2" away. Once the closest model makes it into close combat, that means, even if they were standing virtually abreast to each other, that the second model needs to charge an extra FIVE INCHES in order to be able to make it to the second guy. Not very likely. Even if he made it, the next guy would be in an even worse fix.

Because that second guy isn't going to be able to make base contact with an unengaged model, that means that he's going to have to get into base contact with the lascannon team. After the third model engages the lascannon team, it's pretty unlikely that anyone else will make it into base contact, which means the rest of them will just try to get within 2" of one of the guys that is.

Then their pile-in move will happen, but there's no way that 3" is going to get any non-engaged models 5" away to engage a new model. They'll just all pack in within 2". Odds are, they will all already be in 2" of something, and won't even get to move at all.

Then the bad guys put down 3 wounds, killing the lascannon team, and the next guy behind them.

2.5" for the lascannon base + 2" for displacement to the guy behind him + 1" for the base of the guy behind him + 2" for displacement to the third guy = 7.5" That's a 6" gap with plenty of wiggle room to spare. Throw in the fact that the lascannon team was in cover, and you've got a situation where it's impossible to do anything more.

And there's nothing that you, the assaulting player, can do about it.

Niiai wrote:Ailaros, would that not result in checking combat resolution, not combat consolidation. That is usualy not good for the loosing part.

Yeah, but it's not that bad. Losing combat by 3 isn't an instant death sentence, especially if you have leadership buffs around. Plus, if your leadership is that bad, then you probably would have just gotten horribly slaughtered in close combat anyways. At least this way you get a pretty decent chance of surviving with very minimal casualties and then blowing them off the table with shooting in the next turn.

Isn't it only possible to allocate wounds to models that you are in base contact with? If so, then how would you kill models until they are 6" away?

I'm pretty sure you can still allocate to models within 2" of a model in base contact.

I have that happen frequently with my guardsmen. A 10 man is spread out enough that if an elite unit hits the flank of a squad 9" of dead guardsmen =4 dead guardsmen. Kill 5 or 6 , guardsmen break their morale test, and get swept. It's almost an irrelevant rule that only commonly effects cheap fearless units like ork boys in a big mob or gaunts in synapse.

warpspider89 wrote:
Isn't it only possible to allocate wounds to models that you are in base contact with? If so, then how would you kill models until they are 6" away?

No. p25. "...all models in the target unit can be hit, wounded, and killed, including those that are not engaged."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not really sure what the problem is with high initiative. Even if the Pile In moves result in combat termination, it is still likely that the Sweeping Advance would heavily favour the uber character.

@Ailaros. That's all fine, the issue is that you have missed one very important step. The assaulting unit might not be able to get to the second line/rank of Guardsmen, but it doesn't matter so much in this case. First off the assaulting unit will be able to use pile in moves to get behind the Lascannon (i.e largely surround it, since they can use their pile ins to get into BtB) but more importantly you forget that after the assaulting unit does those three wound the Guardsmen have to pile in towards the assaulting unit at I3 to attempt to strike. In this situation you would already be locked in combat again (the 2nd HWT and the guy behind him are easily within 3" + a base width of the back of the Lascannon team). Then on top of that pile in move, there are TWO more 3" pile ins at the end of the combat, one by each side (which must be towards each other). Essentially in order for the Guard to end up out of combat based on that formation (and a terrible assault distance only getting the attacking unit to the back side of the front HWT after pile ins) they would have to lose 11+ wounds (so almost to the ruins) before I3, units have to be over 6" apart at the end of the fight step, but its over 9" before the I3 pile ins which is pretty big. Admittedly they are Guard so getting 11+ wounds isn't actually that unfeasible, but you really need to have mass carnage combined with a very spaced out unit to end up out of combat with a 1 v 1 combat.

I've actually found that this situation is far more likely to happen with combats with multiple assaulting units. This is because if you have models which end up in BtB with all the remaining enemy models in the combat then they lose the 3" pile in at the end (and possibly their 3" pile in if they are lower I than you). In a big multi charge situation this can easily leave you with a 3" move to get to the remaining enemy models, which isn't much at all.

But that uber character would have killed the crappy squad anyways if the squad had stayed in close combat.

At least this way they get a CHANCE to shoot a second time.

Really what we're talking about is horde armies getting combat tactics for free.

I don't see the problem here. Looking at a situation outside of what Ailaros discribed, this seems no different than 5e. Give me am example that says otherwise.

For the other situation, if you are looking only as close combat as a way to lock in and protect them from shooting, you might be disappointed. However, in the situation you described: you just killed a whole bunch of a unit (remember, you can kill those that are too far away) with no casualties yourself, in the assault phase. It is essentially a second shooting phase, but for your assault units. That wasn't around in 5e, other than just wiping out a unit at initiative.

in 5th ed, pile-in was 6", and it happened at the beginning, rather than at-initiative.

Pretty big difference, for the purpose of this discussion.

I understand the mechanics are different. But not the end result, outside of a situation you described. Reread my post.

Since in 5e you pulled from the back typically, and in 6e you pile in before attacking, you typically will see the same number of attacks in both situations. Get a couple units and work out two combats, with different rules, and you will see the end results are typically identical(although the specific models removed will be different, which is actually a good thing for high initiative In 6e).

You actually bring up another difference, taking casualties from the back. You can't do that anymore, making it even more likely that close combat just ends.

Seriously, unless we're talking about two small, elite units fighting each other, assault can now only skim off the front few guys, with a pretty decent chance of the close combat just ending right there.

That's a lot different than 5th ed.

So Snapshot's quote of page 25 above was completely fabricated?

So this discussion is moot until we know conclusively which models can be taken as casualties in HTH.