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 Formosa wrote:
Dw assault is not situational, it's an ability to build an army around, being able to dw assault your whole force to drop turn 1, then alpha strike the hell out of things is very usefull, combine it with twin linked and some ravenwing bikes it is very powerfull.

Except that you don't always want to do that. Try your "alpha strike" against IG and your opponent says "thanks for putting your entire army into perfect blast template formation" while you remove dead terminators by the handful. Play against GK and you're starting everything on the table to avoid warp quake. Play an objective game and you're starting some squads on the table to hold your "home" objectives. Etc.

In short, it's obviously a benefit, but it's a situational one and I'd rather just have cheaper deathwing.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Didn't you get enough on Bolter and chainsword, OP? O.o it's a fine codex. It's fun. I had a lot more fun with it than vanilla, even with losing.


I like your articles on the HH, but seriously...

I post on Dakka and Bolter and Chainsword because they are two seperate forums with a wide collection of members and audience. I also do it to help boost traffic to my blog. I know it's shameless, but I'm slowly trying to build a community where I am. I do want to make it clear that I don't not think the codex is horrible or not fun or that I'm looking for an over the top, over powered codex. My blog post is simply the strange short comings that I have noticed about the codex, and what I would do to fix them. I also have a hard time accepting the shortcomings that I've pointed as a scheme towards balancing. I feel even with the fixes I suggest the codex would still be balanced. I could be wrong, and some people have pointed out how my suggestions could tip the scale. I'm alright with that.

Thanks for to complament on my HH articles. I've got one ready to post for tomorrow.

Asmodean last I checked mind worm can get through terminator armor and character's, Ezekiel isn't meant to be use in a deathwing assault or ravenwing maneuver so why would he have either of those items? What he does, he does quite well providing a cheap effective psyker with solid abilities.

Ravenwing and Allied guard aren't the only competitve builds out there, I mean if your metasheep then sure only lists that people tell you are good are good, but so far the tide of stubborn power armor backed by tons of plasma cannons and missile launchers was legit, and my friend was still tweaking the list and it beat out a lot of those "top" armies in a tourney.

Black knights are one of the most underrated units, people think, that their cost is prohibitive, well if you buy anything but a flamer on a biker from this or another army, your point cost is almost identical to a black knight, cept for the fact they don't have, +1 to jink, one extra attack, rending, they lack a twin linked plasma gun or the hugely synergetic rad launcher which allows a black knight unit to eat the likes of paladins without a second thought

This army really is about synergy, it requires you to actually make plays instead of pushing your Undead robots/mc's/flamers/screamers/get my point? Across the table and saying I win. By all means if that's what it takes for you to win games I'm sure the Real Dark Angels players will live, while you surf dakka for your next Screamer/Flamer spam list

Can't wait to see if trend continues and poser Daemon players fall back into obscurity because they lost their crutch

Before I begin my refutations, let me state that I have been a Deathwing-exclusive player since the bad old days of the 3rd Ed DA codex, with a long break after 4th, and I have every vested interest in seeing the DA prosper.

I see people are confused by what I mean by 'good' or 'bad' codices.

While there have been many things in this Codex which I have dreamed about for decades (yes, fourteen years since 3rd ed DA) such as split fire Terminators, first turn Deathwing Assault, elite Deathwing units, what separates
a good codex from a bad one is having versatile, playable units (especially new ones). A good codex isn't one which has horribly overpowered units. Necrons is a bad codex. Daemons is a bad codex, if only because three units out of the codex are so much better than the rest that playing others is a waste of time. GK used to be a bad codex but got balanced into an okay codex. You know what are good codexes? Orks, which hasn't had a substantial update for years but still is incredibly fun to play (green-tide-aside) and to play against. Space Wolves, because their diversity makes them fun to list-build and challenging to play against, without being innately overpowered (JOTWW aside). Codex Witch-Hunters in 4th ed, because Sisters were incredibly syngeristic and a rewarding army to play with and fight against.

Now let me say that the new Codex DA is a vast improvement over every prior edition, save 2nd Ed, in sheer terms of diversity. Yes, there are many builds possible with the new codex, some more viable than others.

HOWEVER all these builds were possible in the previous codex and have always been (pre-allies) fun, if not competitive. The new codex brings no structural changes since the last improvement to the Dark Angels formula since 4th Ed, i.e. Ravenwing, Deathwing, Deathraven, etc. GW had the opportunity here to introduce another iteration of the DA, with an Ironwing list (SM Armoured Company- sell some Preds), or fielding a Fallen Dark Angels army list with Horus Heresy tech (since HH is all the rage now- sell some Forge World) or Relictors/GotC if you want to play loyalist- or something else entirely. The only single new strategy is Standard of Devastation-focused builds, which revolve around a single model and dodgy ruling, hence pretty much a gimmick-build which will probably be subject to change in editions to come.

What makes this codex bad, aside from all the failed opportunities to produce a truly creative/diverse/interesting codex is that of the all new additions, only three are playable. If I were the CEO of GW, I would seriously consider firing the entire design team who made this codex, because all of their new additions to the codex would be played, much less bought, by any rational player. (DWKs and BKs are not new additions, merely upgraded Deathwing and Ravenwing- hardly original units.) From both a rules and marketing standpoint, they failed, epically. And they didn't need to make the Nephilim the next Vendetta, or the Dark Talon AV 14/14/14. They just had to cost them at a price where people would play them in an army, and be a viable choice. This is not difficult to rectify either (FAQ, Rules revision- Death from the Skies was just published and no points correction). We of course have the power to play them as whatever we want, so they're not really that concerned.

Of course, it's still too early in 6th ed to tell where the Codex stands on the sliding scale of overall power balance, so any judgement will have to be in the vacuum of games design. Having the chance to create thoroughly new and original units and items which are playable and exciting for the player the design team for Codex: DA has failed utterly. While Codex CSM had some truly abominable units, it has had some great new additions. it's wargear selection is both effective and entertaining, and that is why it is an okay codex. Codex DA doesn't break new ground, all the effective units are derivative of effective units from previous editions, and it's additions are utterly useless, and has bad wargear. This is why Codex DA is a bad codex.

@Asmodai Asmodean

I can certainly see the logic in your post. I particularly agree with your point that this codex could have given GW the chance to really do something creative and interesting with the Dark Angels. Over powered, Necron, and Grey Knight codex: I wonder if these are what people think I wanted or expected with the new Dark Angels when I bring up the shortcomings that I see.

I played my fifth game with the Dark Angels codex throwing in the Dark Shroud, Interrogator Chaplain, Ravenwing Command Squad, and Deathwing Knights. The Dark Shroud was interesting, but I probably won't play but a handful of times if I have 80 points laying around. The Interrogator Chaplain with the Ravenwing Command Squad was a lot of fun, but oddly, I never got to shoot them. However, in close combat, it was fun, not spectacular but fun. The Deathwing Knights where my failure for the day. I broke my cardinal rule of never Deep Striking an assault unit. They stood there and took a round of plasma shooting. Only the sergeant survived. He charged. Challenged Typhus. Did nothing, and died. A tactical squad shooting Typhus is what ended up killing him.

Well guess I'm late to the party, but seems like I didn't miss much. I've been playing DA for 10 years or so now and this update has made me pretty damn happy. We got new units, stuff that no one else has (yet), and best of all a lot of targets to force on an opponent. It's a fun book that lets me go as fast or slow as I want to and make whoever I play have to catch up. And the new stuff is great looking IMO.

I don't see what's not to like about the new codex. So far I've gotten to play a few games with the new book and I really like what it is. Stubborn brings back that wonderful DA feel of no surrender. Adding Hit and Run to the Ravenwing and swapping Fearless for Stubborn really makes the Ravenwing what they were supposed to be originally which was a guerrilla style unit that shocked the opponent and made them blink. The Dark Talon and Dark Shroud provide support that the DA really never had before. Black Knights are nasty and give us probably the best Alpha Strike unit this edition (anyone else remember Veterans with Infiltrate?) and the New Deathwing Assault gives us options to play with for our Termies. Deathwing Knights are murder on the battle field and being able to become T5 makes wounds from standard troop shots less of a big deal. Oh and the plasma cannons. Man it's awesome to have termies with plasma cannons. Finally the Vengeance and the Nephilim Jetfighter are good for a round or two of pounding the crap out of a target and forcing your opponent on target priority.

Yeah there are some crappy options in the book like the monster hunter and the Blade of Caliban but for the most part the rest of the codex is pretty solid. Out tac squads can lay down Hersey levels of fire power with the Standard of Devastation. Sure folks are gonna target the crap out of the command squad, but as long as they are doing that, then they aren't targeting my other stuff giving me more time to move to a key location, take an objective, or move into assault. This book gave us tactics, something that the DA are famous for in the fluff and personally I'm very very happy with it.

 Formosa wrote:

Flyers, bad? No not even close, the fact.you think the nephilim is a anti flyer unit shows you have no clue, its anti light vehicle/infantry,

Book says it's "air superiority fighter"

So does GW Website, quote: "The main role for the Nephilim Jetfighter is as an interceptor to establish air superiority over the battlefield, allowing their brethren to concentrate on ground targets with little concern for aerial assault." (please note that's also a direct quote from page 59 of the Dark Angels Codex)
So if he doesn't have a clue, neither does Jeremy Vetock or Games Workshop (but we knew that already)

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1830074a

 DarthSpader wrote:
The op linked article is terrible. First, his punctuation and grammar are lacking. Second, he drops way too many f bombs and other curses. Makes him look childish and immature. Third, he does not explain WHY some unit is bad. Just " x unit f-ing garbage! This unit, overpriced!" And so on. If your going to so fiercely call out something, provide some support to your argument.

Needless to say, I think the article was not useful, and was an ill conceived rant by a guy who wanted some OP BS like BA or WHFB daemons, has probally played perhaps 10 games in his life, and stomps his feet and cries each time he lost.

It wasnt the OP article - it was the second posted one from Stelek - (Yes the truth hurts) - which I agree with you on. Not sure why people find that guy informative.

 bkiker wrote:

Azerael having Eternal Warrior - I just feel the Grand Master of the entire Dark Angels Chapter should be immune to Instant Death.

Dante would like to have a word with you... I don't think he really needs it, he's not meant to be in combat with things that could cause instant death, so he only needs to worry about errant missiles.

 bkiker wrote:

Ezekiel having an invul save - He's the Grand Master of the Librarians. Why doesn't he have and Iron Halo or something?

No Librarian gets an invulnerable save in any chapter without purchasing Terminator Armour first. And Iron Halos are exclusive to Captains/Chapter Masters.

 bkiker wrote:

Command Squad Banner - Either make him a character or allow a member of the command squad to pick up the banner. This way my 25+ point banner isn't taken out before I get to use my said banner.

Well this is why you've got to be careful with the positioning of the banner... not sure how I feel about this part personally though.

 bkiker wrote:

Company Masters on bike - Why? Is this GW forcing me to take Sammael? I have a sinking feeling it is.

Umm again, basically every Codex that opens up a new build requires you to get a special character first (eg, Coteaz, Logan Grimnar, Dante, Draigo, etc). I would prefer if they didn't make it a requirement, but it's not that unusual...

 bkiker wrote:

Land Speeder Vengence - Just a horrible looking model. With that aside, I would like it to have something that would prevent it from blowing itself up. Maybe internal cooling that takes away the Gets Hot, an extra hull point?

The chances of blowing itself up are pretty low, but I agree... the model's a piece of crap, both rules-wise and to the eyes.

 TedNugent wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Flyers, bad? No not even close, the fact.you think the nephilim is a anti flyer unit shows you have no clue, its anti light vehicle/infantry,

Book says it's "air superiority fighter"

So does GW Website, quote: "The main role for the Nephilim Jetfighter is as an interceptor to establish air superiority over the battlefield, allowing their brethren to concentrate on ground targets with little concern for aerial assault." (please note that's also a direct quote from page 59 of the Dark Angels Codex)
So if he doesn't have a clue, neither does Jeremy Vetock or Games Workshop (but we knew that already)

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1830074a

Marketing failures dont equal rules, they may have intended it to be a air superiority fighter, but the truth is... It's not.

The rules and my experience with the nephilim tell me it's for killing or immobing light/med transports, which it does pretty well, or downing light med infantry, another fact that solidifies its roll as a ground support fighter is the straffing run rule, you.will be hitting nearly every unit in the game on a 2+... Except flyers... Major design cockup I agree, but it's not an air superiority fighter, anyone who uses it like this, is useing it wrong

The rules and my experience with the nephilim tell me it's for killing or immobing light/med transports, which it does pretty well, or downing light med infantry, another fact that solidifies its roll as a ground support fighter is the straffing run rule, you.will be hitting nearly every unit in the game on a 2+... Except flyers... Major design cockup I agree, but it's not an air superiority fighter, anyone who uses it like this, is useing it wrong

It's not a beast like the other Imperial flyers but against pretty much any other flyer it'll get the job done. 7 S6 shots and 3 TL S5 shots will take out anything short of a Helldrake in one go and even then it can feasibly take that out as well. It's murder against light/med vehicles and most infantry squads. The Lascannon only really useful if you're going up against the bigger flyers and medium armor but that's a lot of points for a flying lascannon. So far its been great to play with and has forced my opponents to really think about what they're going to shoot at next.

 Watchersinthedark wrote:

The rules and my experience with the nephilim tell me it's for killing or immobing light/med transports, which it does pretty well, or downing light med infantry, another fact that solidifies its roll as a ground support fighter is the straffing run rule, you.will be hitting nearly every unit in the game on a 2+... Except flyers... Major design cockup I agree, but it's not an air superiority fighter, anyone who uses it like this, is useing it wrong

It's not a beast like the other Imperial flyers but against pretty much any other flyer it'll get the job done. 7 S6 shots and 3 TL S5 shots will take out anything short of a Helldrake in one go and even then it can feasibly take that out as well. It's murder against light/med vehicles and most infantry squads. The Lascannon only really useful if you're going up against the bigger flyers and medium armor but that's a lot of points for a flying lascannon. So far its been great to play with and has forced my opponents to really think about what they're going to shoot at next.

Totally correct, the las cannon is a waste and the mega bolter is much better, watch the nephilim eat chims side armour, vindi side armour.. Also watch it eat dark eldar flyers and raiders, cron flyers are only av11 so ite fairly easy to knock them out too.

Dont forget when it shoots infantry it is also pinning, yet another nail in the "air superiority fighter" design failure

I could be wrong, but don't Necron flyers have quantum shielding making their front and side AV13?

 Infreak wrote:
I could be wrong, but don't Necron flyers have quantum shielding making their front and side AV13?

No they don't. If they did they would be the biggest no brainer in the codex.

People are just mad this isn't a GK or Necron codex. The Dark Angels are fine. Overall they got a huge boost over thier old codex.

Just putting my 2 cents in.... I Like the DA Codex. Yes, its not over powered or cheesy and thats a GOOD THING.

So far we've seen 3 codex come out for 6th ed. and all of them seem to be fairly balanced. If this is the new rule of thumb, the existing OP units are going to get nerfed when their codex gets a proper update.

Ralis wrote:
Just putting my 2 cents in.... I Like the DA Codex. Yes, its not over powered or cheesy and thats a GOOD THING.

So far we've seen 3 codex come out for 6th ed. and all of them seem to be fairly balanced. If this is the new rule of thumb, the existing OP units are going to get nerfed when their codex gets a proper update.

Man, wouldn't that be something? Being able to get into any army and still be competitive.

Not with Heldrakes and Necron Bakeries running amok.

It's taken fourteen years to put out a thoroughly mediocre codex. Will it be another ten before we get a good one?

I don't know about the other DA players out there, but I love the new codex. It's not an auto-win for me like my Eldar. I love the challenge of trying to come up with winning combinations, and finding hidden uses for some of the models we wouldn't normally pick. For those people who get butthurt after losing one or two games, grow up! Just try a different list.

I know what you mean ironhammer, I haven't lost a single game with my deathwing since the new book came out, and only lost 1 game with ravenwing vs dark eldar (damn you Greg!!!), greenwing can actually be used now aswell and mixed works too... I mean cone on.. The bloody book works

 Formosa wrote:
I know what you mean ironhammer, I haven't lost a single game with my deathwing since the new book came out, and only lost 1 game with ravenwing vs dark eldar (damn you Greg!!!), greenwing can actually be used now aswell and mixed works too... I mean cone on.. The bloody book works

It does however it lacks the limburger factor of heldrakes so people on the internet moan and gnash their teeth