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Yesterday I played my first game against an opponent using CSM Heldrakes, and we had a bit of a disagreement over the "Vector Strike" rule. The bit we didn't see eye to eye on was:

"A model that made a Vector Strike
in its Movement phase counts as
having already fired one weapon in its
following Shooting phase. However, any
additional weapons it fires that turn can
choose a different target to that of the
Vector Strike."

My interpretation was that since his Heldrake only has one weapon, that weapon is counted as having been fired already, so can't be fired again in the shooting phase(am i still right in thinking a vehicles weapons can't be fired twice in a turn?). He didn't like this, so we rolled a dice, he won, and flamed my Vet.Guards...


Am I alone in seeing this rule the way I do? Are Heldrake players reading it different because it benefits them to do so? I used to play CSM years ago, and if I was using an army now with the Heldrake in it I'd still play it the way I described...

A zooming heldrake is able to fire 4 weapons, vector strike just counts as having fired one but that doesn't mean the flamer was fired its just in regards to how many they are able to fire

Zooming flyers can fire 3 or 4 weapons (i forget which), so the Hellturkey only counts as having fired one when it Vector Strikes. So it could fire 3 more. However, it only has the Baleflamer, so it just fires that.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/509100.page

Are you the guy playing against Blackhand, lol?

The quote you are using to back up your view doesn't even say what you are wanting it to say. The Vector Strike does not use the heldrake's Baleflamer, so it can't have counted as having already been fired.

 HerbaciousT wrote:
Zooming flyers can fire 3 or 4 weapons (i forget which), so the Hellturkey only counts as having fired one when it Vector Strikes. So it could fire 3 more. However, it only has the Baleflamer, so it just fires that.

A zooming heldrake is able to fire 4 weapons, vector strike just counts as having fired one but that doesn't mean the flamer was fired its just in regards to how many they are able to fire

But then there's this bit;

However, any
additional weapons it fires that turn can
choose a different target to that of the
Vector Strike.

To me that means in addition to the weapon that's counted as already having been fired. A zooming flyer can fire up to 4 of it's weapons, but it needs to have those weapons in the first place, so a flyer with one weapon can only fire one weapon, and if that weapon is counted as already have been fired, it can't fire it...

It CAN use both! That's why is so awesome!

Yeah, it can definitely use both of them in the same turn. Vector Strike something, then turn around and flamer it to death... Burn Marines, Burn!

 Typhus the Betrayer wrote:
Yeah, it can definitely use both of them in the same turn. Vector Strike something, then turn around and flamer it to death... Burn Marines, Burn!

A zooming flyer can't turn after moving...

ted1138 wrote:

 Typhus the Betrayer wrote:
Yeah, it can definitely use both of them in the same turn. Vector Strike something, then turn around and flamer it to death... Burn Marines, Burn!

A zooming flyer can't turn after moving...

I belive he ment with the torrent flamer it got a 360 12 inches

The Helldrake counts as having fired 1 weapon for the purposes of shooting additional weapons.


So if it had hypothetically had 4 guns it could only fire 3 of them if it had performed a Vector Strike that turn.

In this case, the Helldrake can still only fire 3 weapons in the shooting phase because it Vector Striked. The fact it only has 1 other weapon is irrelevant.


All flyers may shoot 4 weapons, vector striking counts as firing 1 weapon. The Helldrake can fire up to 3 more weapons if it Vector Strikes. Behold, it has only 1. So Vector Striking is awsome with it because you lose nothing. And you have 360 degree flame shooting.

Yep, you can vector strike a transport then torrent flame the unit when they get out, and since the flamer has 360 line of sight, it certainly can flame things behind it.

Make it a Nurgle Helldrake.

Out the front is vomit, out the back... well, you know

 Grey Templar wrote:
Make it a Nurgle Helldrake.

Out the front is vomit, out the back... well, you know

Candy floss?

Thats Slannesh silly

If it had two weapons, one would be counted as having been fired, so it would only be able to fire the other one. How can I be the only one to see this?

You're seeing it in correctly, it counts as having shot one weapon, just like if my storm raven shoots his multimelta he had counted as shooting his multi Melta, not its plasma cannon. They are 2 different weapons, a vector strike is not a Bael flamer

ted1138 wrote:
If it had two weapons, one would be counted as having been fired, so it would only be able to fire the other one. How can I be the only one to see this?

Permission to fire 4 weapons, vector strike counts as firing a weapon.... why can I not fire the baleflamer.

ted1138 wrote:
If it had two weapons, one would be counted as having been fired, so it would only be able to fire the other one. How can I be the only one to see this?

Because you're reading it wrong?
You can shoot 4 weapons, you count as firing 1.
How many more weapons can you shoot?

Pretty much what everyone else is saying.

Start with 4 weapons being able to be fired.

Use Vector Strike.

You now have 3 weapons left to fire (if able)

Since you did not use the flamer and still have up to 3 weapons you could fire. You may use the flamer.

ted1138 wrote:
If it had two weapons, one would be counted as having been fired, so it would only be able to fire the other one. How can I be the only one to see this?

You seem to want to ignore the fact that all flyers can fire up to 4 weapons( if they have that many)

When the heldrake vector strikes, it counts as firing 1 weapon. The heldrake can still fire 3 more weapons, but it has only 1.

Yes the heldrake is THAT good.

Yup, can vector and shoot. I guess this could translate to flying MCs as well, if your MC is armed with 1 range weapon he can still vector strike and shoot. The bloodthirster with the khorne whip would be a good example. He only has one range attack, but still can vector strike something and the lash it to death with his mighty whip

"A model that made a Vector Strike
in its Movement phase counts as
having already fired one weapon in its
following Shooting phase..."

Does not say which one but says one of its weapons counts as having been fired.
-or-
A Vector Strike it's self counts as firing a weapon so all weapons on the model can still fire in the shooting phase(up to the max of course).

"...However, any
additional weapons it fires that turn can
choose a different target to that of the
Vector Strike."

"additional weapons" as in, other weapons. It appears to refer to one weapon that targeted the unit you hit with the Vector Strike and then it's other weapons that can target other units.
-or-
"additional weapons" aside from...???... the Vector Strike?

That last part makes very little sense to me so I'm actually leaning toward the OP here. A vector strike is not a weapon. One weapon on the model counts as having been fired makes more sense for this statement.

Vector Strike isn't a weapon, but it counts as firing a weapon. So the "additional weapons" still makes sense in that regard.

Had they not specified "one weapon" just said 'counts as having fired once' I'd think differently but the wording seems to indicate the RAI.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:
Vector Strike isn't a weapon, but it counts as firing a weapon. So the "additional weapons" still makes sense in that regard.

That's still implying the VS is a weapon. It's not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Being a weapon and 'counting as firing a weapon' are not the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Additional weapons it fires" implies specific weapons on the model it fires with, in addition to the previous weapon(s) referred to beforehand.

'Additional weapon firing' could imply anything that counts as firing a weapon but that is not what they say here.

Doesn't Vector Strike usually apply to Flying Monstrous Creatures? I always read the intent as being that it attacks with its natural weapons, ie. claws, fangs, etc. The Heldrake has a toothy maw and talons as well, which are presumably what it vector strikes with rather than the Baleflamer.

I mean, the rule says "savage its prey." You don't savage your prey with a Baleflamer, you use your claws and stuff. I agree the "additional weapons" part is a bit ambiguous, but I don't think it is clear in that sentence whether it means a specific weapon has been fired or if it just means "additional to the one counting as fired" and that the context of the entire rule text shows which is intended to be used (ie. that it counts as having fired no specific weapon).

So a VS(using it's CC weapons) counts as firing one weapon..

... additional weapons it fires[in addition to it's cc weapon(s) that counted as firing]... it's a stretch but I'll accept it

I really wish they'd have a lawyer go over these rules before they print them... but then we wouldn't have all these discussions and we could just play the game... and who would want that?

Ub3rb3n wrote:
You're seeing it in correctly, it counts as having shot one weapon, just like if my storm raven shoots his multimelta he had counted as shooting his multi Melta, not its plasma cannon. They are 2 different weapons, a vector strike is not a Bael flamer

And a vector strike isn't a weapon either...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

ted1138 wrote:
If it had two weapons, one would be counted as having been fired, so it would only be able to fire the other one. How can I be the only one to see this?

Because you're reading it wrong?
You can shoot 4 weapons, you count as firing 1.
How many more weapons can you shoot?

You have one weapon, you're counted as having fired one weapon, how many weapons do you have left to fire?

ted1138 wrote:
You have one weapon, you're counted as having fired one weapon, how many weapons do you have left to fire?

3.
You can for 4 weapons, you count as having fired 1, you can now fire 3 more.
Since you only have 1 weapon to fire, only 1 more can actually be fired.

The OP is reading the original quote as: "counts as having fired one [of its] weapon[s]..." instead of "counts as having fired one weapon. I think that's where the confusion lies.

jmswargaming wrote:
The OP is reading the original quote as: "counts as having fired one [of its] weapon[s]..." instead of "counts as having fired one weapon. I think that's where the confusion lies.

But then it says;

However, any additional weapons it fires that turn can choose a different target to that of the Vector Strike

, which(IMHO) means weapons on the model in addition to the one that's counted as having been fired(thus can't be fired now)...