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They put that in so you know you can fire at a different target then the one you vs'ed, that's it stop tryin to draw more out of it

 Abandon wrote:
I really wish they'd have a lawyer go over these rules before they print them...

The problem is that they used up all their heavy slots for lawyers in their force org chart to send out Cease and Desist notices to obscure authors

Ub3rb3n wrote:
They put that in so you know you can fire at a different target then the one you vs'ed, that's it stop tryin to draw more out of it

I'm not 'drawing more out of it', I'm simply looking at it from a RAW point of view...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There seems to be two views of what "counts as having already fired one weapon" means. On the one side it means 'reduces the number of weapons the model physically has to fire by one', and on the other it's, 'reduces the number of weapons the model can potentially fire by one'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't think the rule when it was written took into account it being used alongside the Zooming Flyer rule of firing up to 4 weapons per turn, so I'm really not convinced it applies to it.

The model "counts as having fired one weapon." Has it actually fired one weapon? No. This sentence, in the only way it can ever be understood, means that you subtract 1 from its weapon firing ability in the next shooting phase. A Flyer can fire 4 weapons. The HD Vector Strikes. Now it can only fire 3 weapons. It has not shot its flamer, or any gun for that matter.

"Any additional weapons it fires...." Has it even fired a weapon yet? No. So the "additional" is strangely misleading, but still does not in any way indicate that the BF has been fired.

Let's try another example, with a model that has more than one gun. My LoC (a MC) had two ranged weapons; he can shoot both. I give him Master of Sorcery (the ability to shoot an additional gun). Now he can shoot three times, but only has two guns. Can he VC and then fire both his guns? Yes. Neither of his guns count as having fired, just the model counts.

"Counts as" must mean the same thing as "has" or the rules break down in spectacular ways.

It doesn't matter here though - the model has fired one weapon. The model is allowed to fire 4.

You can vector strike and baleflame in the same turn. you can nitpick the comma, quotation marks and spacing in between all the words you want. get over it, figure out how to shoot it down and move on with life.

rigeld2 wrote:
"Counts as" must mean the same thing as "has" or the rules break down in spectacular ways.

It doesn't matter here though - the model has fired one weapon. The model is allowed to fire 4.

You're right, of course. Let me try again:
The model "counts as having fired one weapon." Has it actually fired the weapon that it is equipped with (in this case, the BF)? No.

That's better

 Lunchmonkey wrote:
You can vector strike and baleflame in the same turn. you can nitpick the comma, quotation marks and spacing in between all the words you want. get over it, figure out how to shoot it down and move on with life, no amount of pouting, or crying about it is going to make you any cooler.

You're the one throwing a strop mate, not me. If you can't be bothered talking to people with a little respect then you're the one that needs to leave. And if you think this is about 'nitpicking commas, etc', then you obviously can't understand what's being said here...

Elric Greywolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
"Counts as" must mean the same thing as "has" or the rules break down in spectacular ways.

It doesn't matter here though - the model has fired one weapon. The model is allowed to fire 4.

You're right, of course. Let me try again:
The model "counts as having fired one weapon." Has it actually fired the weapon that it is equipped with (in this case, the BF)? No.

That's better

A model is only allowed to fire as many weapons as it actually has. If you apply the rule to it's potential number of weapons it can fire, then as a rule, it has no effect on anything with 3 or fewer weapons. And as I've said before, it's "counts as", not 'has', so no, it hasn't fired it's Bale Flamer, but it's counted as having fired it...

ted1138 wrote:
A model is only allowed to fire as many weapons as it actually has..

Citation required.

People need to calm down a bit in here. This both counts as AND is your only warning.

ted1138 wrote:
And as I've said before, it's "counts as", not 'has', so no, it hasn't fired it's Bale Flamer, but it's counted as having fired it...

It counts as having fired a weapon, not the weapon it is equipped with. Let me rewrite your sentence: "So no, it hasn't fired its Bale Flamer, but it's counted as having fired a weapon." I removed the word "it" since the VC rule does not state that the BF is the thing being fired. And the BF has not been fired. Since the BF has not been fired, it can be fired in the shooting phase.

We can try another tactic. Let's pretend that Ted is right for a moment, and that the BF has actually fired in the Move phase. Since weapons can only be fired once per phase, and the VC occurs in the Movement phase, there is nothing preventing it from firing "again" in the Shooting phase. Problem solved!

ted1138 wrote:
A model is only allowed to fire as many weapons as it actually has..

This is not correct.
In a recent game my Chaos Hellbrute fired four times in one shooting phase despite having two weapons (Fire Frenzy).
You're allowed to fire as many weapons as you're allowed to fire, to put it simply.
There is a general restriction that a weapon can only be fired once per phase (exceptions, as always, apply).
Now the rule in question certainly doesn't say "one of the models weapons counts as having been fired", just that it counts as firing a weapon.
You can fire four weapons, Vector Strike counts as one.

Its a bit like with Movement and Shooting with vehicles.

Your Chaos Land Raider has 3 Weapons, if you move 6" you can shoot with everything, if you move more then 6", you only shoot with one Weapon and the rest with Snapfire, if you move 12" you can"t shoot with anything.

But no matter own many weapons you are allowed to shoot, you always choose with wich weapon you shoot, nowhere it is said that a perticular weapon can't shoot.

Flyer can shoot with 4 weapons no matter what, VSing something count has having a shooting less, it doesn't say that you can't use the only weapon you have, just that if you had 4 weapons, you could only use 3 of them.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Your Chaos Land Raider has 3 Weapons, if you move 6" you can shoot with everything, if you move more then 6", you only shoot with one Weapon and the rest with Snapfire, if you move 12" you can"t shoot with anything.

Just to point out, this is all wrong.
Stationary your Land Raider can fire all weapons, 6" one weapon (rest snap), 12" snap shots only.

Yeah got mixed up...

So the rule states that a flyer can shoot up to 4 weapons, but if it uses the VS, it can shoot 3 more weapons. That makes sense for a flyer which DOES have 4 individual weapons. But for the Heldrake which only has one weapon excluding the VS, it has a MAXIMUM of one weapon to fire. Since the VS counts as a weapon being fired, it can't use the Hades Autocannon/Baleflamer because it only had the one weapon in the first place.

Incorrect, for all the reasons posted

You may fire 4 weapons. VS counts as if you had fired a weapon, but ISNT ACTUALLY FIRING A WEAPON. So you still have a maximum of 3 weapons you can fire

HAve you fired the Baleflamer? NO. Then you may fire the bale flamer as one of your allowed 3 weapons

It really isnt difficult.

Elric Greywolf wrote:
We can try another tactic. Let's pretend that Ted is right for a moment, and that the BF has actually fired in the Move phase. Since weapons can only be fired once per phase, and the VC occurs in the Movement phase, there is nothing preventing it from firing "again" in the Shooting phase. Problem solved!

You should probably try reading the rules. The rules clearly state that "A model that made a Vector Strike
in its Movement phase counts as having already fired one weapon in its following Shooting phase. However, any additional weapons it fires that turn can choose a different target to that of the Vector Strike."

So I have no idea why you think it doesn't counts as being fired in its shooting phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect, for all the reasons posted

You may fire 4 weapons. VS counts as if you had fired a weapon, but ISNT ACTUALLY FIRING A WEAPON. So you still have a maximum of 3 weapons you can fire

HAve you fired the Baleflamer? NO. Then you may fire the bale flamer as one of your allowed 3 weapons

It really isnt difficult.

Lets imagine a flyer with four actual weapons does a Vector Strike, it has 3 weapons left. But then Heldrake hasn't got the ability to fire 4 of it's weapons, only one since it has one weapon. But the Vector Strike counts as a weapon that's already been fired.

Fluxator wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:
We can try another tactic. Let's pretend that Ted is right for a moment, and that the BF has actually fired in the Move phase. Since weapons can only be fired once per phase, and the VC occurs in the Movement phase, there is nothing preventing it from firing "again" in the Shooting phase. Problem solved!

You should probably try reading the rules. The rules clearly state that "A model that made a Vector Strike
in its Movement phase counts as having already fired one weapon in its following Shooting phase. However, any additional weapons it fires that turn can choose a different target to that of the Vector Strike."

So I have no idea why you think it doesn't counts as being fired in its shooting phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect, for all the reasons posted

You may fire 4 weapons. VS counts as if you had fired a weapon, but ISNT ACTUALLY FIRING A WEAPON. So you still have a maximum of 3 weapons you can fire

HAve you fired the Baleflamer? NO. Then you may fire the bale flamer as one of your allowed 3 weapons

It really isnt difficult.

Lets imagine a flyer with four actual weapons does a Vector Strike, it has 3 weapons left. But then Heldrake hasn't got the ability to fire 4 of it's weapons, only one since it has one weapon. But the Vector Strike counts as a weapon that's already been fired.

Where in the Heldrake entry does it remove the ability to fire 4 weapons?

Yes. Now find a rule, anywhere, that states it counts the flamer as having fired. No such rule exists.

The heldrake can fire 4 weapons. It counts as having fired a weapon, so may only fire 3. The flamer is not a weapon that has fired, so can be fired.

Prove the flamer counts as the weapon that has been fired, because basic parsing of the rules reveals that not to be the case....

Fluxator wrote:
But then Heldrake hasn't got the ability to fire 4 of it's weapons, only one since it has one weapon.

There is no rules support for that statement.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fluxator wrote:
But then Heldrake hasn't got the ability to fire 4 of it's weapons, only one since it has one weapon.

There is no rules support for that statement.

I know that but I can't see how it applies to a vehicle with only one weapon. I'm leaving it there.

Text removed.Reds8n

Fluxator wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fluxator wrote:
But then Heldrake hasn't got the ability to fire 4 of it's weapons, only one since it has one weapon.

There is no rules support for that statement.

I know that but I can't see how it applies to a vehicle with only one weapon. I'm leaving it there.

Easy enough, you have allowance to fire four weapons, and at most can fire two (Flamer and "Vector Strike").
The rule doesn't say you count as firing an existing weapon, you're just using one from your allowance of four.

While Vector Strike doesn't count as a "weapon" per say, I do think that the FAQ was written in such a way as to treat it as a weapon for the sake of explaining the "You can now fire up to 3 additional weapons instead of 4" bit of the rule. Confusing, yes, but I understand the intent.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes. Now find a rule, anywhere, that states it counts the flamer as having fired. No such rule exists.

The heldrake can fire 4 weapons. It counts as having fired a weapon, so may only fire 3. The flamer is not a weapon that has fired, so can be fired.

Prove the flamer counts as the weapon that has been fired, because basic parsing of the rules reveals that not to be the case....

So your logic is: 'it counts as being fired, but since it wasn't actually fired, it doesn't count as being fired'...


Also, a Heldrake can't fire 4 weapons, it can only fire one...

ted1138 wrote:
Also, a Heldrake can't fire 4 weapons, it can only fire one...

Citation required.

People keep repeating this like it's accurate - it's not.

Ted - no, a Heldrake, as a Zooming Flyer, can fire up to 4 weapons

It HAS one weapon, so it can only actually fire One weapon.

When it Vector Strikes it counts as having fired a weapon FOR THE PURPOSES of how many weapons it is then allowed to fire in the shooting phase.

Can I ask you this: give a SR the ability to VS. Which of the 6 weapons are you saying is the one "used up"? Show me a rules basis for that. Page and para.

You guys are focusing way to much on the heldrake alone, when VS + shooting affects all the FMCs.

Following the OP's interpretation that would mean that any FMCs without a shooting weapon can't use VS. i.e. the CSM DPs, since he doesn't have a range weapon he can't VS?, this obviously is not the case, meaning that the VS doesn't require a weapon to be used/fired it just consumes one of the shooting attacks that he is allowed (even thou he can't make any). Translating this to the Heldrake would leave the baleflamer/Autcannon free of shooting since it is allowed to make 4 (even thou he only has 1 weapon)