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Starting tyranids and i want to know what choices are bad to make in a general way.
For exemple, i keep hearing that the pyrovores are horrible (even detrimental?) and Old-One-Eye is pretty bad.
I've heard a little bit that Lictor and Genestealers aren't so good now.

So... any units that you're actually worst having them in your army then nothing?
And what are the units that are considered bad:
1) Cause they aren't good mechanically
2) Cause they cost too much for what they do

Thanks!

really only pyrovores, he is legitimately garbage, and old one eye just because he is expensive. If he was the price of a normal carnifex and carnifex were cheaper theyd be bordering cheese.

Dont listen tot he genestealer propaganda, there are very viable ways to run genestealers and they melt everything they touch, along with the broodlord being a machine this edition. Just abuse synapse and its fearless effect after going to ground with them.

Lictors and death leaper are fluffy and i love them, however they are mechanically broken unfortunately. They cant help bring in reserves because when you need them, they themselves are in reserve :/ and they are like a peek a boo unit but he has to awkwardly expose himself for a turn before he can go about his business..."hey here I am! bet you didnt see me!" -checks his watch as he gets shot to bits-

The tyrannofex is another unit that has great ideas behind him but he is just too expensive, and kind of sucks at what he is supposed to do :/... A heavy gun platform with a 2 shot gun and bs 3...meh...and the acid spray is great in conjunction with his other 2 templates, however nids already excell at anti infantry, we dont need a 250 point unit dedicated to it.

The units belonging to the warrior genotype (i.e warriors, raveners, shrikes) suffer from being T4 so they are instakilled by power weapons and missles to the face. They are good units in low point games, however they do not see much play. They are also a tad expensive.

The last one I hear tons of complaints about is the harpy. It is a flyer that can not hit other flyers. It uses 2 blast weapons with a crap bs, so scatters can hurt, though they are twin linked. However it comes down to the fact again that we have cheaper, better models to fill that roll, the harpy would be better off as an air superiority fighter.

I feel inclined to put the mawloc on here too though I do not agree with him being on this list, he is situational but I think hes great and I love him, definitely in conjunction with lictors. He is cheap for a MC however his statline is inferior to say the trygons and his special ability can only be used maybe 3 times a game.

All in all though look up all these units for yourself. they can all be made to work if you plan your army accordingly. Play how you want to play or else you will be playing flyrant/tervigon spam till you puke on yourself....

The Pyrovore is indeed considered to be amongst the worst units in the codex at present, and Old One Eye is just an extremely expensive CC Carnifex (that can't even take a Mycetic Spore).

6th edition is generally considered to favor shooty units over CC units, and this shift has effected even the 'nid swarm. So I never see anyone taking a unit with 0 BS or no possible shooting weapon/pschic powers (so Termagants > Hormogaunts).

Lictors can't charge after infiltrating so they're just gonna get shot to bits however Genestealers can still be good, especially the Ygmarl variety.

Tervigons, Flyrants and Zoanthropes are in every single list.

Another unit you didn't mention that is also considered pretty bad are Mawlocs, because why take one instead of a Trygon? Rippers are fairly useless as well, and the Tyrannofex is just overpriced like Old One Eye.

Edit:
Aww, patsfan beat me to the punch! Even used the exact phrase "shot to bits" when referring to Lictors. I'll let it slide because he's a fan of the right team though, GO PATS

Cool, thanks for the advices both! And nice to see you aggree on most things, i won't get super confused. =P

"I feel inclined to put the mawloc on here too though I do not agree with him being on this list, he is situational but I think hes great and I love him, definitely in conjunction with lictors. "
Care to explain that part? You already mentionned that lictors will often be on reserve (or just arrived) when you need them? I guess it could work for Burrow, but wouldn't the lictors be dead already X turns later?


And yeah Patsfan, i already checked all the units, but i'm new so i don't really see the obvious weaknesses. First time i read pyrovore i though it was super cool cause it ignores armor saves in melee and it can shoot while in feeding frenzy! I made a tentative list based on what i own and what i think i'd like to play. (dont want tervigon spam...) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/509496.page#5317253

Haha nice ragingmunkyz go pats! but ya I'll explaint he mawloc to ya. What I said about him AND the lictor is something I probably should not have said. Its real hard to set it up because of the lictors obvious weakness. You would need to aim for a turn 2 burrow witht he mawloc and hope your lictor doesnt die before turn 3 to have him guide the mawlocs blast. However i find that the Mawloc, without the lictor and in numbers of atleast 2, can be a monster back line disruptor. With some good dice rolls and positioning they can wreak havoc on pesky long fangs and lootas. this is why I can not in my right conscious call them bad as I feel they excel at what they are made for. they are not a cc beast like the trygon however they are'nt meant to be. hell using two, you can off set their burrows so that one comes up turn 2 the other on 3. the disruption caused by the first one may just be the distraction you need to keep your lictor alive long enough to guide the 2nd one. However this does not always work so this is why I said they are situational. In reality I think it is the lictor bringing the mawloc down with him, not the mawloc being inately bad haha. if the lictor was actually competent at his alpha strike job, the mawloc would indirectly benefit and they would both be great units with great synergy, and still would not be over the top good.

As for your list, I looked it over and I will post my thoughts on that actual thread I may even post a list with some changes utilizing the units I know you have since I am sure you would like to play right away! I wont tell you to go out and buy tervis and flyrants, cause Ik full well we dont always have the time and money haha

I don't play Nids but I play against them a lot. Mawloc is a unit that works very well, I think, sutiationally. I usually play Necron and want to clump units together for fire support. Mawlocs threaten bunched up units and force me to spread my units futher then I want to. T6 MC's are tough to shoot down and if you have one of these in the backfield you can stick your trigons and whatnot back there too to scramble the opponent while your Broodlord, or Flyrants, or whatever close in.
In short, they can be very disruptive.

Start a good core of Tyranids that you wold enjoy to play or paint and wait until the codex.

I think the Mawloc is not a bad unit but it depends on what you want to do with the army. While both the Trygon and the Mawloc with act as backfield disruption units, a Mawloc has the potential to do some serious damage on the turn it arrives. A Trygon is going to wait until turn 3 before it can do anything besides shoot but once it gets into combat it will eat entire squads.

If you just want a distraction until you get your main forces into the fight, I would say a Mawloc is better because it is cheaper, can jump across the map to deal with other threats, and is still resilient enough to survive for a few turns. If your opponent is spread out across the table, a Mawloc is helpful.

If you want something to wreck face and destroy your opponents back field while you go after other targets, then the Trygon is good.

Back to the OP. Pyrovores are bad. Harpies are not terrible but points are better spent elsewhere. Lictors are fun but losing them to a bad cover save throw is disheartening. Also I had a deathleaper stuck in combat with 5 scouts for like 3 turns of combat so they aren't all powerful. Venomthropes are iffy. If you have 55 extra points they are good for a little extra security on your gaunts or even Tervigons against Krak Missiles. You are going to lose genestealers to shooting before you get into CC and you have to accept that. But having access to Broodlords makes up for it. I've been meaning to try out MSU of Broodlords to see how effective it is. Old One Eye could be awesome but he is too slow and too expensive. Tyrannofexs are ok if you run them with a bunch of temples but they get stuck in tarpits really easily. Again, points are probably spent better elsewhere.

Thanks patsdan! I'll study the list after work.

Something i though about mawlocks... If you have 2 and alternate them so one pop each turn, like this
Terror - burrow -Terror - burrow
Burrow - terrow - burrow - terrow
If you manage to make them survive, they could pop on the last round on an enemy objective to contest it. Is that viable? Is it worth the points or it cost too much?


Shamroll, you mention venomthropes being iffy. I've only played once with 1 of them and yeah it wasn't really good. But i was thinking if i have 3 and use them to protect hormagaunts (doubling their chance to save!) it would work better. Would that strategy work?

It would work, however you have to put 165 point in to venoms to do that. Thats more than a doom in a pod, whos infinitely better as a unit. This goes back to what I said about if you take these less used units, you kind of have to build around them and synergize everything. And as for your question about mawlocs I am not 100% sure if they can contest objectives. Though I'm sure they can help by clearing out enemy units on the objective while your troops capture it.

This is a rather long and exstended list although 6th edition gave it some help. There are a lot of tutorials on what nid units to use.

I would sugest rather focus on picking units you think is good in an armylist and we can warn you if there are any horrible units in there.

I'll have to see for venom.... sucks that we can only have 3 elites, or i could get HG, Venom, Zoan and Doom!
Any idea what i could convert a venom into? =P I'd hate to waste a model that cool looking.

Yeah Niiai, i started with what i though was good. If you want to comment on the list http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/509496.page#5317253
I just wanted another thread to see what are considered bad choices, cause eventually i,ll expand the list.

Flyrants , Tervigons, Flesh and Dev gaunts, Hive Guard and Trygons are all good.

Mawloc, Zoanthropes, Ymargls, Biovores, Carnifexes and Gargoyles and Venomthropes are situationally good.

The units that are gimped...
Tyrannofex - Cost vs effect is bad.
Genestealers - The cost is too high now for effect on the game.
Tyranid Warriors - T4 and multiple wounds is worthless for the cost. They either need EW back or cost reduction.
Hormagaunts- Worthless for the cost.
Lictor - Need +1 reserves or reroll on reserves whether on or off board. Immune to dangerous terrain rolls on deep strike placement and ability to attack on turn of appearance.
Shrikes - same problem as warriors
Pyrovores - the "Shlongovore" is worthless. Give it the ability to throw its template like a hellhound. 1 Attack makes it worthless in CC.


All this said and tyranids are still a pain to face but the build is limited. Face a tyrannid that goes heavy biomancy and you are in for a shock...

Gargoyles are king!

Ravaners are good. I suspect shrikes also are good but I have never tryed them.

all tyrants are good, tervigons are good both as hq and troop, Tyranid prime is also good. Zoanthropes, Ygmra, Hive Guard, Doom is good.

Addaran wrote:
Shamroll, you mention venomthropes being iffy. I've only played once with 1 of them and yeah it wasn't really good. But i was thinking if i have 3 and use them to protect hormagaunts (doubling their chance to save!) it would work better. Would that strategy work?

Venomthropes are great and very underrated, you usually don't need more than 2 either. They're especially useful if you fight deep strikers, it's a good way to keep your Tervigons or Swarmlord from getting mulched by Sternguard.

I think Venoms are OK, but Zoanthropes can do their job just as well. They're a tougher screen for MC's and if you switch for biomancy they can also become more durable.

Defensive grenades are a bit of a non issue. I haven't had anyone try to assault my big bugs to date.

Venomthropes are OK if you do not have a plan for using your elites. If not, gargoyles can usualy do the same job venenthropes do.

I think you hit the nail on the head with Gargoyles since they're cheap, fast and in the fast attack section, which is really not used much.

They're also a threat to small heavy weapon units so can work as a great distraction after they've done their job screening the big boys.

By now you know who is bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsUXAEzaC3Q

I haven't run the Mawloc yet, but is it really bad? I thought they got a worthwhile boost from 6th with smash. Same 6T and 6W and solid vehicle hunting over the Trygon, who's abilities are kinda wasted on vehicles and better suited to taking out elite infantry.

The mawlock got an increase with smash, Also you now always hit tanks on 3+ in cc witch is mutch better. And the smash attack options means every MC got better vs landraiders. Before you need a plan vs landraiders, now that plan can just be covered as a by effect of having MC's in your list.

The upsides the mawlock has is mobilaty in the form of re-borriwng and being able to come up anywhere with the blast template. Hit and runn is also included. It has the same saves and it is cheaper. The trygon is mutch more expensive but is king of CC and one of the better combat monsters out there. 6 attacks re-rollable, and then you can have 2+ with re rolls at AP 2 vs mostly everything in the game. It is really king, and comes with fleet.

The downside of both these units is the increase of rapid fire-ring plasma-guns in the game.

Both are good so go with your gutt feeling.

Fear the Ripper.... swarm.

I thought the ripper swarms were useless until I got my ass kick by them. 10 Rippers swarms, spine fist and you have 40 shot twin-linked.

DAaddict wrote:
y either need EW back or cost reduction.
Hormagaunts- Worthless for the cost.
Lictor - Need +1 reserves or reroll on reserves whether on or off board. Immune to dangerous terrain rolls on deep strike placement and ability to attack on turn of appearance.

I think you are running the lictor wrong as they don't worry about dangerous terrain from deep strike since they don't deep strike or scatter. I do agree they would be alot better with the ability to assault on arrival like Ymgrals.

I find Hormagunts quite useful for the base cost. up to 4 attacks on charge, reliably fast in getting where you want them, good on long charges. An excellent screen or tarpit unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hellpato wrote:
Fear the Ripper.... swarm.

I thought the ripper swarms were useless until I got my ass kick by them. 10 Rippers swarms, spine fist and you have 40 shot twin-linked.

Especially tunnelers. Even if they fail IB, on the turn after arrival they don't die fast enough to not get stuck in to assault, were they can remember to breath. Down right annoying tarpit unit.

Ripper Swarms(with or without wings) are garbage. And you have to collect a lot of the models if you want to use the Parasite of Mortrex.

Genestealers are bad, they are the epitome of everything that was nerfed in 6th. Except Ymgarls, those are still pretty good.

Be careful how you use Warriors, Shrikes and Raveners, because they are Krak Missile bait: three wounds apiece, but die in one shot from a universal heavy weapon. But other than that, they're alright so long as they make sense for what kind of army you're trying to build. But watch out, the models come out to $15 each.

Venomthropes were nerfed really weirdly by an FAQ, they basically took away part of a special rule but not all of it, and they weren't broken before. But now they aren't all that great at all.

Don't take Spinegants or Spike Rifle Gaunts. You're getting the same efficiency as a Termagant for one more point, so they suck. Hormagaunts are really easy to kill, and aren't an objective holder, but they can work in huge numbers for an aggressive list.

Spore Mines have very marginal uses bought separately. Don't do it.

Carnifexes are waaaaaaay overpriced. The "Dakkafex" is really the only viable build(2x Twin-Linked Devourers). Even then, you might need to Mycetic Spore them in. Don't get melee fexes(this includes Old One Eye).

Lictors(including Deathleaper) and Pyrovores are beyond terrible units, don't even bother buying the models unless GW updates the rules for them someday.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, on to the alright units:

Harpies, Zoanthropes and Tyrannofexes are not bad units. They actually have uses. But the uses are marginal, so be careful what list you put them in. The Harpy is fast, flying, kills massed infantry, but is incredibly easy to damage if they can land a hit on it. Quad Guns are pretty much designed to kill this things, and it's terrible armor save of 4+ means it can die to massed krak grenades if you try to tarpit something with it. So it's basically the strengths and weaknesses of the Tyranids magnified to the extreme.

Zoanthropes kill tanks, die to massed fire, resilient to single powerful shots. They also provide cheap psychic powers, so you can use them as a swiss army knife by deciding before the game which psychic table to roll on, or to just keep the default powers. If you put them in a spore pod, you can get their lance in range. Otherwise, you can follow your army forward and give your other guys FNP.

The Tyrannofex is super tough, and it has an AP4 Torrent weapon. Use it if your army wants to be a slow-moving short ranged wall of death, or if your hammer(flying monstrous creatures and deep strikers) need an anvil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Good units? They do exist in the codex.

A Hive Tyrant should always be taken with 2x Devourer in the vast majority of builds. This will give you plenty of dakka. Give it 2+ armor, but even better, give it wings. A "Dakka Flyrant" will completely overwhelm many Marine armies, and will deal all sorts of fast moving shooting, vector strikes, melee, you name it.

The Swarmlord is also a good HQ, he's a point and click melee deathstar: same idea as the Tyrannofex, except he is really good at drawing fire due to how scary he is to Marine armies if he gets into charge range.

Tervigon is your lifeline. Take one, take Catalyst to FNP whatever you need FNP'd, and let it spawn gaunts. It should be taken as a Troops choice, since it is really hard to shoot off an objective.

Termagants are good when paired with a Tervigon, to unlock it. Give the Tervigon Toxin Sacs if you want your Termagants to be extra lethal. Devilgants(Termagants upgraded to have Devourers) can put out incredible dakka, but they are squishy for 10 point models: outflank or deep strike them, since you have the tools to do it in your codex.

Trygon is big, but it dies a lot. You can do a lot with it though, and it WILL kill marines in melee.

Hive Guard can provide some anti-tank shooting, if you need it, and can generally just give good support to your army.

Biovores give anti-infantry shooting from a long distance. Take two if you have spare 90 points.

Ymgarl Genestealers make great ambush/assassin units, run a couple big mobs of them if you want to make your opponent scared to deploy.

Gargoyles are dirt cheap, you can run 90 of them and it won't even be a quarter of your army. They are what Hormagaunts only dream they could be.

Carnifex, give it 2x Devourer and spore drop it in, you'll be sure to kill something good: drop it behind a tank or something, snipe the rear armor, then charge a squad the next turn.

There's one more unit, the Mawloc. People have had variable results with it. Some love it, others think it's trash. Who knows.

Oh, and of course. The Doom of Malan'tai. Put it in a mycetic spore, drop it in, begin the slaughter. Seriously, this model is cheese incarnate, watch as your opponent fires his entire army at one 90 point model out of sheer terror of what it is capable of if left unchecked.

Pyros are so lame i dont even know anyone that has the model let alone use it lol.

Theyre about as stupid as Flash Gitz for orks. What they do is more expensive and not handled as well as what is a cheaper alternative. No point.

 Larmsword wrote:

Venomthropes were nerfed really weirdly by an FAQ, they basically took away part of a special rule but not all of it, and they weren't broken before. But now they aren't all that great at all.

I've read the FAQ but i can't see how it was changed. Seems they removed the defensive grenades but added what a defensive grenade do in the text?


Spinefist sky-slasher don't seem so bad compared to gargoyles.... but they cost more $ and vulnerability to template/out of synapse.

Keep the discussions coming, it's helping a lot see the different point of views on all the models.

I finished a game yesterday where I took a tervigon with all three powers traded for biomancy. He got tied into cc with a terminator deathstar with a gk grandmaster and a brotherhood champion. For some silly reason, my opponent challenged. With endurance from my zoanthropes nearby and never missing an iron arm roll, he anchored them there from turn 2 to turn 6 before losing to the champion's heroic sacrifice power. During this time, he spawned 53 termagants before running out.

Tervigons on biomancy are ridiculous. If you're looking to not run cheese, try running one as an hq.

Edit: For clarification, I meant an hq tervigon is less cheesy because of its inability to hold objectives

On the other side you do need an HQ. It might as well just be a Tervigon.

Addaran wrote:

 Larmsword wrote:

Venomthropes were nerfed really weirdly by an FAQ, they basically took away part of a special rule but not all of it, and they weren't broken before. But now they aren't all that great at all.

I've read the FAQ but i can't see how it was changed. Seems they removed the defensive grenades but added what a defensive grenade do in the text?


Spinefist sky-slasher don't seem so bad compared to gargoyles.... but they cost more $ and vulnerability to template/out of synapse.

Keep the discussions coming, it's helping a lot see the different point of views on all the models.

The original rule for Venomthropes' spore cloud was "any friendly unit within 6", including the Venomthropes themselves, get Defensive Grenades, 5+ cover save, and charging them counts as charging through dangerous terrain". They lost the defensive grenades, the Venomthropes have a pseudo Defensive Grenade ability, but it only applies to the Venomthrope unit. Because apparently the buff to grenades in general shouldn't get to apply to Tyranids? I don't know.

 Larmsword wrote:

Addaran wrote:

 Larmsword wrote:

Venomthropes were nerfed really weirdly by an FAQ, they basically took away part of a special rule but not all of it, and they weren't broken before. But now they aren't all that great at all.

I've read the FAQ but i can't see how it was changed. Seems they removed the defensive grenades but added what a defensive grenade do in the text?


Spinefist sky-slasher don't seem so bad compared to gargoyles.... but they cost more $ and vulnerability to template/out of synapse.

Keep the discussions coming, it's helping a lot see the different point of views on all the models.

The original rule for Venomthropes' spore cloud was "any friendly unit within 6", including the Venomthropes themselves, get Defensive Grenades, 5+ cover save, and charging them counts as charging through dangerous terrain". They lost the defensive grenades, the Venomthropes have a pseudo Defensive Grenade ability, but it only applies to the Venomthrope unit. Because apparently the buff to grenades in general shouldn't get to apply to Tyranids? I don't know.

Yup, letting tyranids get a 3+ cover save from fire with in 8" would have been just to OPing. To bad nids are already so top-tier