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Hi guys
How does power "Jaws of the World Wolf" (SW) against a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature?

Hmm not sure, does the units affected include fmc in the faq?
If not I would say no.

JoTWW should be covered by this FAQ:

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any
weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically –
interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous
Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

 Formosa wrote:
Hmm not sure, does the units affected include fmc in the faq?
If not I would say no.

There has been nothing about FMC. BRB is further away than the lenght of my arm but are FMC not just MC with more, like Jump MC.
As it is I think RAW they may be effected so long as it isn't the first model hit by the line.

HIWPI- no joy. FMC are hard to hit so it shouldn't be hit by this.

I think it depends on whether they're grounded or not, you got to think of JotWW like the ground opening and only affecting things on the level as the RP casting it. Or at least that's what I've been lead to believe.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Hmm not sure, does the units affected include fmc in the faq?
If not I would say no.

There has been nothing about FMC. BRB is further away than the lenght of my arm but are FMC not just MC with more, like Jump MC.
As it is I think RAW they may be effected so long as it isn't the first model hit by the line.

HIWPI- no joy. FMC are hard to hit so it shouldn't be hit by this.

No a fmc is just a mc with add ons, it's a totally different unit type, like bikes and jump infantry.

I do agree that things that affect mc do affect fmc though, with exceptional to hard to hit of course

Well... the FAQ specifically states *SWOOPING* Flying Monstrous Creatures. So no, they can't be hit by JOTWW as they can only be hit by snap shots.

I presume the ongoing debate is in relation to Gliding FMCs. I would say these are affected without needing to FAQ it. The snap shot resolution is granted by sub-rule "Hard to Hit" (page 49), which isn't granted when Gliding, only Swooping. Moreover, Gliding specifically states that a Gliding FMC moves, runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.
I would extend this to treat them like a Jump MC in other respects - which I realise isn't RAW. However, as RAW stands, you have nothing in the rules that apply to Gliding FMCs that would stop JOTWW, so it works as normal.

(added) as further food for thought, it's this reasoning that allows such attacks to hit Hovering flyers. They lose Hard to Hit when Hovering as well.

elam wrote:
Hi guys
How does power "Jaws of the World Wolf" (SW) against a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature?

It does not affect the "Swooping" FMCs per the FAQ that was posted above.

As above, as long as its Swooping, Jaws can't affect or target an FMC, as Jaws is a shooting attack which automatically hits.

If the FMC is Gliding, OTOH, it's fair game.

EDIT: On review of the unit types, I'm reversing my position on Gliding FMCs. It turns out that FMCs appear to be a totally separate and independent unit type from MCs.

Here is my problem with the interpretation of JotWW hitting gliding MC and Jump Infantry. The original rules for 5th CLEARLY intended for Jump Infantry (which, if I recall, winged MC were treated as in 5th) to not be hit by JotWW, so why is it that because 6th foolishly changed it to Jump,Infantry, this automatically negates the intention of the original rule? Has there been a FAQ to support this interpretation?

It is specifically stated in the Space Wolves book what Jaws does and does not affect. Infantry is a type that Jaws affects. Jump Infantry follow the rules for Infantry with some additional effects, ignoring Jaws is not one of them. Ergo, Jaws effects gliding FMC as they count as Jump infantry.

It doesn't need an FAQ to see if Jaws affects Jump Infantry, as it's perfectly clear in the rules, it's not even mind numbingly stupid form a RAI perspective. GW have changed their mind on rulings before.

Many units and upgrades change in power and utility when an edition changes the basic rules underlying them. Look at Skimmers in Codex: Eldar for a prime example. When they were published, Skimmers moving over 6" could only suffer Glancing hits in either shooting or close combat, and depending on which upgrades you took, 2/3 of Glances could be basically ignored for purposes of transporting a unit. They were EXTREMLY hard to kill with the right upgrades (Falcon with Holofield & Spirit Stones). All of their skimmers are overpriced by at least 50% at this point, but we're not looking for a FAQ to tell us "Yep, we did mean to screw skimmers".

Judging it as "foolish" is really a matter of opinion.

 Rampage wrote:
It is specifically stated in the Space Wolves book what Jaws does and does not affect. Infantry is a type that Jaws affects. Jump Infantry follow the rules for Infantry with some additional effects, ignoring Jaws is not one of them. Ergo, Jaws effects gliding FMC as they count as Jump infantry.

It doesn't need an FAQ to see if Jaws affects Jump Infantry, as it's perfectly clear in the rules, it's not even mind numbingly stupid form a RAI perspective. GW have changed their mind on rulings before.

This boils down to RAW vs RAI. RAW 6th edition, you are right, JotWW would hit Jump,Infantry and Jump, MC. However, I still don't believe that GW ever intended for JotWW to hit Jump units of any kind (infantry or MC), and there has never been any indication they changed their mind beyond the addition of a comma to Jump Infantry in the BRB.

ClassicCarraway wrote:

This boils down to RAW vs RAI. RAW 6th edition, you are right, JotWW would hit Jump,Infantry and Jump, MC. However, I still don't believe that GW ever intended for JotWW to hit Jump units of any kind (infantry or MC), and there has never been any indication they changed their mind beyond the addition of a comma to Jump Infantry in the BRB.

The fact that the rulebook changed what jump means for units that have it as part of their profile and 3 FAQ's have passed without any word on it means that jump MC can be hit just as an MC with JOTWW.

Flying monsterous creatures in swooping mode are immune to jaws, this much is true.

Since the jaws rules don't include flying MC's at all in their list of affected units, they are clearly immune, just like how jump infantry are immune.

All of this is moot point, because all you have to do is put your MC in any kind of terrain that's on the table, and it's immune to Jaws, since jaws can only be used on models that on on the table itself, since that's where you draw the line.

 juraigamer wrote:
Since the jaws rules don't include flying MC's at all in their list of affected units, they are clearly immune, just like how jump infantry are immune.

Interesting point. On review of the two unit types, I think you're right about this. FMC seems to be a completely separate and independent unit type from MC, much like Jump Infantry was an independent and distinct unit type from Infantry in 5th edition. FMC has all the same special rules as MC detailed in its entry, in addition to all its own rules, and never once refers to the MC rules. So yes, on review I agree that FMCs are exempt from Jaws regardless of which flight mode they're presently using.

 juraigamer wrote:
All of this is moot point, because all you have to do is put your MC in any kind of terrain that's on the table, and it's immune to Jaws, since jaws can only be used on models that on on the table itself, since that's where you draw the line.

This is a nonfunctional distinction, and I would never employ it either in a game or a rules discussion.

 juraigamer wrote:


All of this is moot point, because all you have to do is put your MC in any kind of terrain that's on the table, and it's immune to Jaws, since jaws can only be used on models that on on the table itself, since that's where you draw the line.

All of the table is terrain. Look at open terrain in the rule book. This is just poor easter egging.

Agreed that Jaws can't harm a FMC no matter what... but as to the terrain thing, I'd say that only is true if the model being hit is on, say, the second level of a ruin. Being on a hill doesn't help I'd think.

I play SW and I usually don't use Jaws on FMC's because they are in the air... I'm opening a hole in the ground... The FMC should just glide over it anyways. But if it failed a grounding test, it's fair game to me!

With regards to were jaws can hurt things, I will shamefully copy paste some stuff from another thread:

nosferatu1001 wrote:


It is a line, not a plane. It has to pass through you to be affected, and it is specifically passed along the ground in the codex so units higher up in a ruin dont get affected

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Where you are told the line extends along the board. Is above the board "along" the board? No.

Edit: to help, what you are describing is a *plane*, not a *line* - a plane is 2-D, a line is 1-D by definition.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
drawing a line, a 1-D object, along the board by definition means that you cannot hurt anyone above board level. You are claiming it is a plane, which is 100% false.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Terrain is not the board. Rules citation? Terrain is defined as being ON the tabletop on page 90, first para, left column, and we know tabletop is synonymous with board.

A line is by definition 1-D. Dont argue otherwise, please. It is one dimensional, with the direction of that one dimension fixed as along the board.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet the rule says along the board.

The rules say the terrain is placed ON the tabletop. Again, where is the rule saying that board is equivalent to board+terrain?

That last one is the most important. Now while the rules state this, I personally wouldn't exercise this right to be immune to jaws by keeping all my stuff in area terrain unless I come up against a guy with 4 rune priests.

None of those are page quotes. That argument is poor and is trying to create a beam from jaws that runs along the table not the board. GW call the board what you play on, terrain and all.
You're easter egging and failing.

Liturgies - so despite the rules saying otherwise, Jaws would "hit" a model 6 stories up in a ruin? What about those on top of a bastions battlements?

The only thing I seem to be doing currently is presenting the rules as written, and accidentally causing a space puppy to rage.

I merely strive to know the rules and play them correctly, regardless of what I personally feel.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Liturgies - so despite the rules saying otherwise, Jaws would "hit" a model 6 stories up in a ruin? What about those on top of a bastions battlements?

I Think what he is saying is that if you have models in a piece of terrain (like a forest with a base) the power still hits them.

I agree it will not hit anything in a ruin above the ground floor.

 juraigamer wrote:
The only thing I seem to be doing currently is presenting the rules as written, and accidentally causing a space puppy to rage.

I merely strive to know the rules and play them correctly, regardless of what I personally feel.

Except you weren't presenting the rules as written, you were presenting the rules as translated by nosferatu. Not that I disagree with his conclusions necessarily - it's just that you've cherry picked nos's comments from another post. You didn't quote any rulebook stuff, so it isn't RAW.

But anyway - isn't that another thread? I think it's been established that Jaws doesn't affect FMC. I'm convinced anyway.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Liturgies - so despite the rules saying otherwise, Jaws would "hit" a model 6 stories up in a ruin? What about those on top of a bastions battlements?

Did I say that?

No I said that being in terrain is not a get out of jaws free card.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 juraigamer wrote:
The only thing I seem to be doing currently is presenting the rules as written, and accidentally causing a space puppy to rage.

I merely strive to know the rules and play them correctly, regardless of what I personally feel.

Ah so I must be reading for my own advantage.
I have heard no response in the other thread or in this one to the fact that all of the game board is terrain.

You heard it in the previous thread, with rules quotes and everything.

You said "all" terrain is the board. A ruin is terrain. Ergo you can draw the line (which is now a plane, in your variation on the English language) through a model 6 stories up.

Its called "a conclusion", and it is what is drawn from your misreading of "line" as "plane"

I never said a plane. You keep saying that.

A line along a surface is not a 1 dimensional mathmatical function nor is it a plane. It is a line as colloquially used not as per formal definition.
Is the entire board terrain or not?

Very defensive, space puppy is.

The entire board is open ground, and you draw jaws along this, and only this.

Open ground is terrain, specifically open terrain as per page 90.
So why can I draw a line along one type of terrain and not another?