Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Lately I have noticed units with fnp are increasingly my go to units. my opponents are fielding more and more plasma and my command squad is walking through his units. I am currently playing SM but looking at BA. With melta and str 8 weapons on the decline,are FnP armies the new counter meta? Anyone one else seeing this in games?

FNP has always been popular in the meta I play in, even during 5th. Why would you not want as much as you can get? It makes small arms fire almost pointless against MEQ and will often force opponents to pour heavier firepower at FNP units just to try and slow them down.

I still lose plenty of BA to small arms fire. FNP increases save chance vs small arms from .66 to .78.

However, the BA have to pay an overhead to get this bonus, namely the sanguinary priest. Given how crappy furious charge is now, you are pretty much only bringing this guy for FNP. It's probably just better to buy more guys from a small arms fire, but gives you a .33 save vs plasma. I guess its still debatable.

I think C:SM is a better list than BA right now. BA is the codex of overpriced toys that don't perform in the actual games.

Now for things like plague marines, it gets ugly because they are T5.

FnP is worthwhile if you can get it at a fair price but it isn't something I would go out of my way to force into a unit.

Example, Slaaneshi marked Chaos vs Noise Marines. I feel like its too expensive to upgrade basic CSMs with MoS simply for the reason of buying them the icon. Those points could be better spent buying more bodies or a transport, or simply saved for other units. However adding the icon to a large enough squad of Noise Marines seems more cost effective because the price of the mark is already included.

I agree with that minigun762.

Getting FnP against power weapons and plasma is pretty sweet, even after they dropped it to a 5+. I've had a command squad in my list that has performed super well.

I don't know if that'll be a counter meta. I will say however, that its better to have access to FNP than it is to not have access.

But at what cost? Is it really worth it for the BA to drag along a weak sauce IC for the privilege? I'm seeing plasma in quantities where my FNP means nothing. My squads are still getting crippled if they get shot at.

Martel732 wrote:
But at what cost? Is it really worth it for the BA to drag along a weak sauce IC for the privilege? I'm seeing plasma in quantities where my FNP means nothing. My squads are still getting crippled if they get shot at.

Before I look at something like FnP, I look at adding bodies. Are you already using full sized squads? If so, there isn't much you can do about bodies so FnP will add some durability.

A quick and dirty method is to assume FnP will save 1 out of every 3 marines who would otherwise die (its actually less than this due to 2x power weapons but this is for simplicity sake).

6 MEQs with FnP will have the same rough durability as 8 MEQs. If it's cheaper to add 2 bodies instead of FnP, I would do that instead, especially as those bodies increase your offensive power as well.

You still get FNP against Plasma.

I know that. But enough plasma shots makes the 5++ save meaningless due to torrent of wounds bypassing the primary 3+ save. 5++ is not exactly reliable.

Martel732 wrote:
But at what cost? Is it really worth it for the BA to drag along a weak sauce IC for the privilege? I'm seeing plasma in quantities where my FNP means nothing. My squads are still getting crippled if they get shot at.

Considering that a single 50 point model can use its aura to service up to and over 40 marines, with proper placement, I do not think that the cost is a huge issue.

Healer-type units have to be thought of differently than pewpew units. They regain points primarily in what they save from death, not what they kill, though they can get kills. Every marine saved = 16 points preserved.

warpspider89 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But at what cost? Is it really worth it for the BA to drag along a weak sauce IC for the privilege? I'm seeing plasma in quantities where my FNP means nothing. My squads are still getting crippled if they get shot at.

Considering that a single 50 point model can use its aura to service up to and over 40 marines, with proper placement, I do not think that the cost is a huge issue.

That's very difficult to do in practice. In fact, it's hard to keep a single SP on two different squads, because stuff happens and they get split up.

Martel732 wrote:

warpspider89 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But at what cost? Is it really worth it for the BA to drag along a weak sauce IC for the privilege? I'm seeing plasma in quantities where my FNP means nothing. My squads are still getting crippled if they get shot at.

Considering that a single 50 point model can use its aura to service up to and over 40 marines, with proper placement, I do not think that the cost is a huge issue.

That's very difficult to do in practice. In fact, it's hard to keep a single SP on two different squads, because stuff happens and they get split up.

Don't let them get split up then or bring enough priests for that possibility. A well-prepared list should be ready to deal with those easily anticipated situations.

Now you are buying more priests. And raising the cost of the FNP benefit.

It's not always a choice whether to split up given the mission and/or HTH engagements.

Then be prepared to make either choice rather than complaining that a choice had to be made. That is the point of pre-planning how the army will operate under the various circumstances it may encounter. The game is not so random that a player will would encounter occurrences so foreign that they could not have been anticipated.

Martel732 wrote:
Given how crappy furious charge is now, you are pretty much only bringing this guy for FNP.

I wouldn't buy a Sanguinary Priest for just FC, but FC isn't exactly crap... it's just not amazing like it was in 5th. Against Marines, that 3+ to wound can be the tipping point for otherwise lackluster combat units like Assault Marines.

FNP is useful against low AP weapons from shooting or assault. I found it particularly useful for my Blood Angels against Monstrous Creatures that aren't Str8.

Martel732 wrote:
I know that. But enough plasma shots makes the 5++ save meaningless due to torrent of wounds bypassing the primary 3+ save. 5++ is not exactly reliable.

"Why do you even bother shooting with your sluggas. They are worthless."

warpspider89 wrote:
Healer-type units have to be thought of differently than pewpew units. They regain points primarily in what they save from death, not what they kill, though they can get kills. Every marine saved = 16 points preserved.

This.

Giving a 16 point marine FNP, means that they live 1/3 longer. This means your 16 point marine has the durability of 21.333 points of equal marines.

There are two ways you can look at this. From a pure math side, one 50 point priest needs to be near 9 marines (valued at 16 points a pop) total to be "worth it"
However, that leaves out some important elements of durability. Your not giving up first blood as easily. Your more likely to not be shifted off an objective (very important in late game)

 illuknisaa wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I know that. But enough plasma shots makes the 5++ save meaningless due to torrent of wounds bypassing the primary 3+ save. 5++ is not exactly reliable.

"Why do you even bother shooting with your sluggas. They are worthless."

Nice!

I agree with the above posts for regular troopers with fnp. My sucess has been with a very good armour/inv save charater in the front of the unit with FnP.

I have been throwing lysander in a command squad and he is walking through plasma and small arms. Looking at Corbulo and his 2+ fnp and seeing him as a great front wound soaker. if only he had an inv save. You look out sir anything nasty str 8+.

Thunderhammer storm shield termies with fnp would also be tough as now you need melta and lascannons to bypass fnp. FnP gives them one more save vs small arms they do fail.

I'm also using them in drop pods and these units only have to survive shooting for one turn before they assault. (except trmies) FnP is bying just enough time to get to assault turn 2.

At 2K, I tend to field 2 Sanguinary Priests w/ Jump Pack, 1 Sanguinary Priest w/ Terminator Armour, 50 Assault Marines with various upgrades, 10 TH/SS Assault Terminators, and a Libby in Terminator Armour w/ Storm Shield. Fielding a BA horde style army makes FNP bubble absolutely necessary!

As for my Nobz Bikers, the Painboy is a hit and miss in terms of making his points upgrade back. However, he's a given because he allows access to cybork upgrade.

I don't think its quite fair to compare the BS 2 of a very cheap ork to the FNP roll of an expensive space marine and the even more expensive IC that must be purchased to get said FNP. BS 2 for orks works because of torrent. The very same kind of torrent that makes FNP for BA seem lackluster. Don't forget that a BA SP will almost always be paying for a jump pack or bike. This adds up very quickly, and kills model count.

That being said, I have tied up some MCs extra long with FNP marines. Enough to squeak out some victories vs Tyranids and CSM in some cases. In one case, a squad survived just long enough against a flyrant to let me get the Stormraven into firing position and gun the thing down mercilessly. But against things like sternguard drops and practically any IG list, my guys just die like chumps, even with FNP.

I didn't see anyone comparing "the BS 2 of a cheap ork to the FNP roll of an expensive space marine" Martel732. All there was was a joke about shooting sluggas.

I wonder what this has to do with anything.

On the topic of torrent of fire, FNP is a significant benefit against opponents that spam average S & AP shots (ie. most small arms fire). It adds an extra layer of saves that reduces the (in)efficiency of that simple strategy which is to make your enemy roll lots of dice. This makes my scatter walkers sad.

As for plasma... well most things with FNP actually get a chance of surviving plasma if their cover saves fail so thats pretty epic. If enough plasma is shot at a unit that it can be quickly wiped out despite FNP then that squad has probably absorbed the majority of plasma firepower on the table that turn.

The day my Guardsmen get easily available FNP is the day that I start keeping guys alive. I don't remember the last time I got to roll an armor save. It may not mean much, and chances are im getting a cover save, but that 5+ means all the better chances to keep important special weapons alive...

Scatter walkers still shouldn't have too much trouble FNP marines. They've got at least two turns to shoot them. Plus whatever other Eldar guys running around to finish them off. What really sucks for scatter walkers is AV 13.

I see what you are saying about plasma. It's just that the BA in particular start off with less guys on the table, so it feels like a complete wash. After I pass some 5++ FNP rolls, I'm still not actually better off than other marine chapters because I'm towing around extra ICs.

When those ICs let me win HTH combats, that was one thing. Now I think the termagants gettting FNP from tervigons is a really cool thing, since the tervigon is completely superior to a SP. And FNP on plague marines and bikers is epic as usual since that is giving a save against things like krak rockets and lascannons.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
FNP has always been popular in the meta I play in, even during 5th. Why would you not want as much as you can get? It makes small arms fire almost pointless against MEQ and will often force opponents to pour heavier firepower at FNP units just to try and slow them down.

My Question is have you ever fought a fully Meched out Guard Company ?

Yes. I lost.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes. I lost.

I don't think he was asking you...

Martel732 wrote:
Yes. I lost.

Then you know exactly how unreliable that FNP is against Small Arms Fire