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I've always wanted to see GW do a cowboy style chapter, but that's not gonna happen. So I've been thinking about making my own! I've been thinking about a slightly higher base cost for troops and what not to balance things out, so feedback and constructive criticism is GREATLY appreciated!

To start things off, Special Rules for the Army!

Accurate: When a model with this special rule targets an enemy that has moved less than 6", the model gets +1 BS. Against models that have gone to ground, the model get +2 BS. These are not cumulative with eachother.
This is for all Cowboy marines

Spirit Warrior: A model with this special rule has the adamantium will and feel no pain USRs.
This is for the Native American marines

Spirit Walker: When a model with this special rule suffers a perils of the warp roll, roll a dice. On a 3+ the model is embroiled defending it's soul, and may perform no further actions until the beginning of your next turns shooting phase. On a 2 or less, the model suffers a wound as normal.
This is for the psykers, who are Native American marines, known as Elders

Spirit Totems
These are similar to marks from C:CSM and are at a points premium. They are only available to models with the Spirit Warrior special rule and each unit may only take one. (unless otherwise stated)

Rabbit totem: The squad has the move through cover and fleet special rules.

Wolf totem: If the squad is more than half it's original size, they receive +2 attacks.

Bear totem: The squad has +1 T

Owl totem: The model gains a psyker mastery level. (Highest would be 2 or 3, not sure yet)

Raven totem: The squad gains the infiltrate and scout special rules.

Eagle totem: The squad may reroll any dice rolled for deepstriking, including the scatter die!

Lasso: The squad may forgo it's shooting phase to cause a unit within 6" to take an initiative test. If failed, the unit counts as having gone to ground with no bonuses to their cover save. The targeted unit may choose to go to ground in order to avoid the initiative test, and doing so allows for the squad to gain a cover save bonus as normal.
This is for Cowboy marines on bikes

Now for the Chapter Master! Sheriff Jeremiah Young!
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
5 7 4 4 3 6 2 10 3+/4++

Special Rules: Accurate, Fearless, IC
Wargear: 2 Master crafted plasma pistols, bolt rifle, PA, frag and krak grenades
Range S AP Type
Bolt Rifle 36" 4 5 Heavy 2

Quick Draw: In a challenge, Jeremiah may elect to shoot his plasma pistols rather than use them as close combat weapons. His shots hit based on weapon skill, may not gain any attack bonuses, and get hot even if rerolled with the master crafted special rule (You roll a 1 to hit, and you may reroll to hit, but you must still take an armour save or suffer a wound)
Makes all Bolt Rifles free to all cowboy squads
Points: 250

The chapter's second in command, UNNAMED (Something Native American for Spirit Bear) the Spirit Bear
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
6 3 4 5 3 4 5 10 2+/4++

Special Rules: ATSKNF, Stubborn, Spirit Warrior, Eternal Warrior, Stealth, IC
Wargear: 2 Power Axes, Terminator Armour, Bear Claw(4++)

The Spirit Bear: Any unit the Spirit Bear joins, gains the Bear Totem in addition to any other totems the unit already has. Furthermore, the unit treats all cover saves as invulnerable saves. (bear totem is represented in his profile, and no cover saves in close combat anyways!)
Points: 260

I'll be writing more, but the basic cowboy troops have Accurate and may have one bolt rifle for every three members of the squad instead of a heavy weapon but along with a special weapon, as well as being able to take bikes. Devastators (Miners) have access to assault cannons and a special vehicle for them that deepstrikes via underground tunneling. The scouts are Mountain men, and they are Elites. Assault squads, termies, Apothecary (Medicine Men), and Librarians (Elders) are the Native American Spirit Warriors. Techmarines are known as Tech Smiths. The Native American marines, have very limited shooting, while the cowboys are fairly limited in CC. Termies can't deep strike, and don't have drop pods.

So what do you guys think?

Unless everything is costed a lot more than normal, this seems like it'll be more overpowered than not.

You effectively have troops at BS5 if the enemy doesn't move (or moves a small amount, like through cover), which is far from uncommon. Your psykers have a built in save with no drawback, and you have 'Marks of Chaos' that almost feel like their better. Then you have other troops that come for free with FnP (normally a 30pts upgrade for 5 man squads), plus adamantium will.

I don't know how much these units will cost, but it should be significant compared to base marine units from C:SM/C:CSM.

I also feel like the more you build this, the more you'll be introducing special units, special rules, and special items, to the point where it'll be burdened down by its own complexity.

I like that you have a cool theme, but remember that you can have a creative, themed army without having to craft a billion special rules. I've said once, and I'll say it again;

These are marines, and as such, follow the Codex Astartes to varying degrees. They use standardized units, standardized weapons, and standardized wargear, because that is what the Imperium's logistics chain provides them.

Every chapter is slightly different, and contain slight variations of existing units and patterns of weapons. But do not take this to mean that you should change everything for the sake of being unique. You can certainly change the name of certain squads (instead calling them Assault Marines, call them...I dunno, something else) but so long as they remain functionally the same in stats and equipment. Do this for your own sake, and especially for your opponent. I know every marine codex in and out and can spot units on the table based on their wargear. If you start creating and modifying every standard unit, your opponent will no longer be able to easily identify what does what. That makes it unpleasant and slows the game down.

Less is more.

Themes are good, but you can do so much to make your chapter stand out by simply painting them and basing them in a different, unique manner. Having a small amount of special character (Chapter Master, a Captain, a sergeant, and maybe a librarian) helps to add a lot of flavour with minimal changes, and adding one or two special units should be all that's needed for a marine chapter. Then add in a small selection of new wargear (the bolt rifle is fine, a long range bolter that needs to be stationary works well as a flavourful addition while not being silly, or overpowered) to make them that little bit extra.

I agree with Blacksails here. I think you are getting carried away with rules and ideas that, while they fit your theme, put you on a path towards an army that is overpowered, overcomplex or both. Compare any two Space Marine chapters, generally apart from a handful of rules, they use the same gear and work the same way as others. Whereas your idea has a pile of extra weapons, an unusual division of unit types (cowboys and indians, quite literally ;p) and a pile of rules for each of them. Basically, you can get to a point where I kinda ask "why are they even Space Marines?" because they are so vastly different than existing Marine chapters.

Without point costs, it's hard to fully give an opinion on these rules, but here are some of my thoughts.

Accurate - This is effectively a +1BS, or more. Unless this costs a lot, I'd be against it.

Spirit Warrior - While it is not a bad idea in principle, the problem comes when you start explaining later on how many units will have this. And all of the sudden, I just have oodles of squads with FNP and AW. The only other Marines with that much abundant FNP are Death Company, and those are very expensive points-wise.

Spirit Walker - This rule is confusing and counter-intuitive and leads to a lot of problems, I think. Why should they have a 3+ save against perils when ANY psyker who perils is fighting for their soul?

Totems - These strike me as you seeing the Chaos marks and deciding oyu want better ones. Unless I see points, I do not like these.

Lasso - This one is intensely overpowered. Insanely overpowered. Basically it means I can dump cheap squads around an enemy unit of any size and effectively shut them down for the entire game. It does not make any sense to me either. How do you lasso a mob of 30 Orks? I get the idea of it, but as it is, this is just nutty powerful. I would adjust it so that it can be used to move a single model in the squad, such as pulling a special weapons guy out, or repositioning the character.

Chapter Master - I actually like his challenge rule. I think that's a good idea, though maybe reword it to be less confusing.

I do NOT like him making the rifles free for all squads. Nobody has that big of an effect for their army. That rule just says "take this guy and have an awesome gunline" rule.

Spirit Bear - Scary overpowered. SCARY overpowered. Techmarines Bolster Defense ability and this guy means squads with 3++ saves. That's a bit over the top.

In the end, listen to Blacksails here; less is more.

 Blacksails wrote:
the bolt rifle is fine, a long range bolter that needs to be stationary works well as a flavourful addition while not being silly, or overpowered to make them that little bit extra.

The long-range Bolter also is fluffy, as Space Marines have access to a long-range Stalker patter bolter (which, is basically a long barreled scoped bolter. Not quite a sniper-rifle, more like a designated marksman rifle). I think Tellion has one? I have to check.

How about +1 BS against models that did not move in the previous turn, and units that have gone to ground?

I think I'll drop the cover to invul saves and allow the Spirit Bear to reroll his cover saves.

The Totems are squad specific. Assault squads get the eagle, raven, and rabbit (not sure on the effectiveness of the rabbit though). Psykers get the owl and rabbit. Termies get the wolf, bear and rabbit.

The Spirit warriors have absolutely no ranged capabilities, and cannot take transports. The termies cannot deep strike, but the jump troops can, which means the termies are foot slogging all the way. This is why I gave them feel no pain; it's fluffy, and helps out on the table.

I think I forgot to mention that if a psyker is immobilized by a perils, the squad he is with may not move or charge. They are busy protecting them!

Some Back story now. The Western Stars are a successor chapter of the White Scars. During the Great Crusade, the White Scars brought about a 100 percent peaceful compliance. The natives took to the White Scars, though they were less fond of the Mechanicum harvesting the "life" of the planet, aka resources. A bargain was struck. Resources were allowed to be extracted, but the mechanicum was not to deface the surface of the planet. This led to the planet becoming a mining operation, with all operations underground. 5000 years after the great crusade, the High lords of Terra allowed for the planet to bear a successor chapter of the White Scars. At this point, the populace included natives and imperial settlements, which is why there are cowboy and native marines, as the chapter draws from the roaming tribes as well as the mining settlements. On the surface, the world is an agri world, supplying the Imperium with both edible flora and fauna, while it was also a mining world with great underground labyrinths of mining tunnels, stretching throughout the entire world.

I'm thinking 20 points base for a cowboy. I'm not sure how to cost the bikes, but they will be around the price of a ravenwing bike. The assault marines will be priced similar to BA assault squads, though a little cheaper, maybe a point or two since they have no shooting of any kind. The scouts will be pricey. I'm thinking, since they are mountain men, that they will have the option of skyfire with PE flying/monstrous creatures/beasts, though it won't be cheap. 20-30 points? I'm really not sure how to price the termies, since they don't get CMLs, AC, HF, Storm Bolters, Combieweapons, etc, but will have two close combat weapons base, with all upgrades being a "pair of". Psykers will have Biomancy, Divination, and MAYBE telepathy.

Yeah but can the subaltern speak?

Edward Said speaks: sheesh.

Native Americans as profound mystics who can't use guns is in poor taste. It does not even have to offend or disparage anyone; chauvinism and intellectual defect reflects badly on anyone.

I haven't really read the above, I only googled exoticism and magical black man, and welp

pelicaniforce wrote:
Yeah but can the subaltern speak?

Edward Said speaks: sheesh.

Native Americans as profound mystics who can't use guns is in poor taste. It does not even have to offend or disparage anyone; chauvinism and intellectual defect reflects badly on anyone.

I haven't really read the above, I only googled exoticism and magical black man, and welp

They are representing the wild west, when the natives didn't have guns, only bows. Though this is in the 41st millennium, and the two are not trying to kill each other either. I'm Cherokee, so bad taste would be along the lines of alcoholics who have casinos.

Aleph-Sama wrote:
How about +1 BS against models that did not move in the previous turn, and units that have gone to ground?

So, what you're saying here is that your marines are somehow better at shooting non-moving things than other marines? You know, like how I imagine everything that has used a gun to be better at shooting non-moving targets than moving ones. This honestly, truly, makes no sense and just comes across as being overpowered with no real fluff justification.

I think I'll drop the cover to invul saves and allow the Spirit Bear to reroll his cover saves.

Even that is still very powerful with the ability to buy the ADL for an awesome cover save.

The Totems are squad specific. Assault squads get the eagle, raven, and rabbit (not sure on the effectiveness of the rabbit though). Psykers get the owl and rabbit. Termies get the wolf, bear and rabbit.

It doesn't matter that they're squad specific, because they're still incredibly powerful for the squads that can take them. As if limiting your assault squads to three options which greatly benefits their ability to assault is somehow balancing. Oh, and termies with the bear totem, right.

Again, no, these are too powerful, and your attempt to limit them is not balance. For example, the eagle totem; why would anyone other than jump pack infantry want to use this anyways? Also, when you can re-roll dice for scatter, its implied he scatter dice can also be re-rolled, no need to put that in.

The Spirit warriors have absolutely no ranged capabilities, and cannot take transports. The termies cannot deep strike, but the jump troops can, which means the termies are foot slogging all the way. This is why I gave them feel no pain; it's fluffy, and helps out on the table.

Can the termies take a Land Raider? Like every other chapter? Why can't your spirit warriors take transports? These are marines, they have rhinos, and razorbacks, and land raiders, and stormravens, and land speeders.

I don't know what your trying to do with these spirit warriors, as I don't know what stats they are and what wargear they have.

I think I forgot to mention that if a psyker is immobilized by a perils, the squad he is with may not move or charge. They are busy protecting them!

Its still a free save from perils. Rather than losing your potential warlord, you can just sit there for a turn. Again, why? Why are your psykers better than all the others who just simply accept perils. Just sounds like trying to be better than all the other chapters.

I'm thinking 20 points base for a cowboy. I'm not sure how to cost the bikes, but they will be around the price of a ravenwing bike. The assault marines will be priced similar to BA assault squads, though a little cheaper, maybe a point or two since they have no shooting of any kind. The scouts will be pricey. I'm thinking, since they are mountain men, that they will have the option of skyfire with PE flying/monstrous creatures/beasts, though it won't be cheap. 20-30 points? I'm really not sure how to price the termies, since they don't get CMLs, AC, HF, Storm Bolters, Combieweapons, etc, but will have two close combat weapons base, with all upgrades being a "pair of". Psykers will have Biomancy, Divination, and MAYBE telepathy.

Before you get into pricing, ask yourself why you're making this chapter. Is it to be different? To be unique? To have a special chapter that you created?

Then ask yourself if they need all these special rules and differences. Because it seems like you're trying to change everything for no other reason than being different. Being different does not mean unique or thematic. Its also a giant pain for your opponent who has to ask things like this;

"Are those assault marines?"
"No they're Spirit Warriors."
"So, what do they have?"
"They're power armoured marines with jump packs and chainswords, and a bunch of other special rules."
"They look like assault marines, without the pistols."

So on. It just gets unnecessarily complicated. Balancing this also gets hard. Your reasoning to take away their pistols, yet give a bunch of options and special rules to make them better at close combat, and yet still make them cheaper base cost than regular assault marines makes little sense balance wise. Furthermore, I just don't see why you can't use ordinary assault marines and paint them differently.

In the end, most of this can be done by using the regular C:SM and just paint them differently/use your own names for the units. But trying to justify that your termies can be +1 T for x points because they're super tough, more than all the other termies from other chapters, just sounds like trying to be super snowflake special and overpowered.

Right, I am in agreement with the other posters here. I think the most important thing when making a homebrew chapter is to be A) Reasonable, B) any unique wargear and characters should always be over costed by a comfortable margine, and C) as few unique weapons and rules as possible

Here is an example. Lets say that this chapter really values scouts. As they should, we often picture cowboys as rangers. So lets maybe bump them up to elites and / or fast attack, and give them bs4. Not a huge deal.

Why don't you just put some Scouts on Horses and give them 2 pistols so they can ride around and pretend they are Rooster Cogbern. t4, 4+ save, Cavalry, 2 Bolt Pistols with the option for 1 or 2 scouts to upgrade to 2 plasma pistols, hand flamers, or inferno pistols. Done. Perfectly reasonable, very fluffy. You could even give them bs4, like Space Wolf Scouts and move them into fast attack, or elites if they are unmounted.

You can put guys on Horses, the Imperial Guard Rough Riders have them after all. Just follow similar rules to them for your Cav. No bonus to Toughness, Cav movement, etc.

Stuff like that, consider basing units off of Empire Pistoliers or Outriders. Just because you want to do a special marine chapter doesn't need to have options that are universally better than Official Codexes... Even having some unique fluffly units which might not be super good should be fine.


EDIT: One thing thats really confused me is why do your Mariens get +1 Ballistic Skill against enemies who have gone to ground? I've watched quite a few westers, and let me tell you, when those cowboys are laying on the ground they don't get hit AT ALL. They just lay down there as bullets plink on the rock above them. If anything your Marines should have bs1 when shooting at enemies gone to ground

I also really like the idea of a quick draw rule. But I would tone it down. I like it because it is very symbolic of cowboys dueling with pistols at high noon, etc. So how about when fighting challenges, a character may make a single attack with a pistol weapon in lieu of normal close combat attacks. This attack follows the normal rules for close combat attacks, except its strength and AP values are the shooting characteristics of the Pistol. Plasma Pistols get hot on a roll of 1 to hit. Definitely makes Plasma Pistols an interesting choice!

@akaean, Thanks for the ideas on the cavalry, I think that will fit better than bikes.

Why no +1T? A chaos terminator with the mark of nurgle costs a measly 37 points! And it can still deep strike, along with a power weapon and combibolter as well as take transports. That's cheaper than a standard assault or tactical terminator from C:SM, with +1T mind you.

As for the feel no pain, I had to reread an old book I had. It has the account of an old colonel describing how even after 2 bullets, a tribesman would only go from a "run to a dignified walk." Would it be more appropriate for a feel no pain 6+ then?
The Gospel of the Redman, compiled by Ernest Thompson Seton and Julia M Seton, pg 49

I asked for constructive criticism, not an outright "No that's OP". Give me a way to tone it down, or offer an increased price. The special rules stay, even if it costs 100 points per model... Well maybe the accurate rule can go, but then it just seems like ultramarines riding horses...

Chaos terminators also have worse rules- no atsknf, worse wargear- no access to thss... are you sure you want to compare to chaos termies? But if you don't mind losing your 3++ and atsknf then by all means ;-)

Alsording to fluff everything should have fnp but imperial guard and craftworld eldar... sm have multiple hearts and can shrug off most wounds, orks have supernatural toughness and healing. Its represented by t4... fnp is reserved for even tougher or crazier models, sort of like frenzy.

Also I think your tribal populations would be better fluffwise represented by exodite eldar. Would give you conflict with your cowboys, an uneasy truce in the face of common enemies like orks or chaos, etc.

Remember exodites are spiritual eldar who live on the croneworlds, often separate from craftworld support. They often come into contact with colonizing. imperials... like the western stars.

Using exodites for half your army would give you a different statline to work with, more varied models, and what I think is more interesting fluff

Aleph-Sama wrote:


I asked for constructive criticism, not an outright "No that's OP". Give me a way to tone it down, or offer an increased price. The special rules stay, even if it costs 100 points per model... Well maybe the accurate rule can go, but then it just seems like ultramarines riding horses...

You got constructive criticism! You got awesome criticism at that too. Well reasoned, justified points explaining our stance that these ideas are overpowered and not actually fluffy or make a lot of sense. Disagreeing with you or pointing out flaws does not make our criticism any less meaningful or somehow not constructive. In fact, it should be viewed in quite the opposite way.

If you honestly have a hard time accepting that people on this forum may think your rules are overpowered (they are), the maybe you shouldn't post these rules. People will disagree with your fluff, your rules, and your ideas, but you have to be able to have a civilized discussion on the matter without plugging your ears and calling people 'meanies' for saying something overpowered. We are not obligated to make your rules work on the tabletop, we are here to point out what can be changed, improved, or outright removed because of balance reasons.

Remember this when designing rules;

Fluff does not equal rules

As Akaean pointed out, by your definition of FnP, every marine should have it by default. Don't use the in game fluff, and especially don't use real world history and logic to make a rule work in game. It just simply never works.

If your chapter are truly marines, the same marines as every other chapter in existence, then you have to abide by some very basic fluff rules about marines. Changing a few things is fine, but altering everything about them by adding in a score of new units, removing others, and not making use of the most basic wargear/vehicle options feels like a poor attempt to make them super special marines. They are, afterall, marines. Like every other chapter.

So, all my points stand from before, and I suggest you understand why I've made them. Not from a fluff perspective, but from a balance perspective. Don't just look at the unit alone, look at in the context of its codex and force org slot. Comparing C:CSM termies to C:SM or C: DA termies can only go so far, before you understand one has limited (or expensive) options for durability, another represents the only viable CC option for the codex, and the other can be made scoring with excellent wargear options to boot. I'll let you figure out which is which.

In short, don't complain when people give you feedback you disagree with. How boring would this be if everyone who posted in this board simply said "Oh that looks nice." It would suck.

And don't put marines on horses...or any animal. Marines ride bikes. Space Wolves don't count. Just don't do it. Its just so awful seeing everyone propose that their chapter rides some native creature instead of a bike for the sake of 'creativity'.

 akaean wrote:
Chaos terminators also have worse rules- no atsknf, worse wargear- no access to thss... are you sure you want to compare to chaos termies? But if you don't mind losing your 3++ and atsknf then by all means ;-)

Alsording to fluff everything should have fnp but imperial guard and craftworld eldar... sm have multiple hearts and can shrug off most wounds, orks have supernatural toughness and healing. Its represented by t4... fnp is reserved for even tougher or crazier models, sort of like frenzy.

Also I think your tribal populations would be better fluffwise represented by exodite eldar. Would give you conflict with your cowboys, an uneasy truce in the face of common enemies like orks or chaos, etc.

Remember exodites are spiritual eldar who live on the croneworlds, often separate from craftworld support. They often come into contact with colonizing. imperials... like the western stars.

Using exodites for half your army would give you a different statline to work with, more varied models, and what I think is more interesting fluff

True. Feel no pain dropped then. And I never had the intention of giving the termies storm shield. They'll always have a pair of weapons, and at a slightly higher point cost. Bear totem would cost 40 for the squad with the squad costing 200 like normal. staring with twin CCW, it'd be 5 for power weapons, 10 for lighting claws or power fists, 20 for chainfists or thunder hammers. Is that too cheap, or just right?

I don't really like the idea of exodite eldar. I'm trying to make a wild west army for the imperium with ALL the elements of the wild west if possibly.

By the way, at least akaean is offering other ideas. AKA constructive criticism.

Aleph-Sama wrote:


By the way, at least akaean is offering other ideas. AKA constructive criticism.

Its sad that you genuinely believe my points to not be constructive.

No one is obligated to make an idea work. Sometimes the best criticism is to tell someone it won't work and the reasons why.

My point is this; why are your termies T5? I don't care about the cost, but just the reason why. Because T5 is a significant boost, and quite hard to justify short of being daemonically possessed and ridden with a plague.

For the record, these are still marines, and follow the codex astartes to varying degrees. There needs to be rather strong reasons and fluff justifications to deviate a lot from the standard layout. Also remember that even the most deviant of chapters still use the basic outline of Tac/Assaul/Dev/Termy/Vet squads, complete with bikes, speeders, preds, rhinos, razors, and land raiders.

*Edit*

Also, you may have missed the quote I put below earlier in the thread, so I put it back for you. Below should be considered constructive criticism even by your limited definition. In short, you don't need a million different rules, a slew of new weapons, and plethora of special units and characters. I apologize if that's not what you wanted to hear, but you not liking it does not make it any less constructive, nor any less valuable.

Themes are good, but you can do so much to make your chapter stand out by simply painting them and basing them in a different, unique manner. Having a small amount of special character (Chapter Master, a Captain, a sergeant, and maybe a librarian) helps to add a lot of flavour with minimal changes, and adding one or two special units should be all that's needed for a marine chapter. Then add in a small selection of new wargear (the bolt rifle is fine, a long range bolter that needs to be stationary works well as a flavourful addition while not being silly, or overpowered) to make them that little bit extra.

I am in agreement with blacksails on this. BUT you don't need to limit yourself to the codex astartes. Have you considered representing your book with the Chaos codex?

Hear me out- they don't have to be worshipers of chaos, but they give you a lot more flexibility in terms of marks and warhead which resemble your totems. He'll you could just say that the bear totem is the mark of nurgle to avoid confusion.
bear-nurgle
Wolf-thorn
Rabbit- slaanesh
Owl- tzeentch
Spirit walker- spell familiar, etc

Etc. You don't have to model them chaotic at all, nor do you have to say they are renegades. They can look however you want, and fight for who they want, but their rules represented by the csm codex. And that book has alot of what you want.

You could even put your chapter master on a horse- and have it counts as a jugger or steed of slaanesh.

The other option of corse is the space wolf codex, but its a bit less flexible.

Consider running these books for the majority of your rules, and very slowly sprinkle limited special rules of your own- like the quick draw in challenges rule discussed above