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 jy2 wrote:

 wyomingfox wrote:

But the rulebook specically states you can vector strike Flyers...lol. And


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So if the FAQ wasnt intrtpreted that way, would you have moved your flyrants differently. If so how?

Yeah, some of the BAO FAQ's are actual rule changes, such as the one about flyers being able to shoot a vertical 180 degrees and that scoring vehicles can also contest.

But say that the heldrakes can VS my flyrants. What would I do differently? Nothing.

Let's say both birdies VS the non-Iron Armed flyrant. First of all, I'd give him FNP if I think that he is going to be in harm's way (i.e. the heldrakes). So can they kill him? The 2 turkeys would average (2D3+2)/2 hits or 4 hits, of which 2.67 wounds (round up to 3W). I then make 1 FNP save so on average, they would do 2W to my flyrant. He'd still be alive and next turn, both flyrants would go after both helturkeys. Most likely, I would have taken out both of his flyers.

In the worst-case scenario, he kills my non-Iron Armed flyrant. Next turn my Iron Armed flyrant would take out 1 dragon. The turn after that, I would go after his noise marines on his Emperor's Will objective. The results would have been the same, only he'll probably survive 1 turn longer and he gets my Warlord.

The rules change would have only delayed the inevitable perhaps 1 or 2 turns longer. Honestly, his army wasn't designed to be able to take on my army. They still can, but they would probably require the same amount of luck that my Game #1 opponent had.

The two turkeys would average 6 hits, not 4. d3+1 each, which is an average of 3 hits apiece, or 6 total, which comes to 4 wounds. So you'd def want that FNP up!

Of all the flyers out there, are there any in particular your nids do fear then?

From my own experience, Nids have the resiliance to just ignore flyers if we can't bring them down.

 Fxeni wrote:

The two turkeys would average 6 hits, not 4. d3+1 each, which is an average of 3 hits apiece, or 6 total, which comes to 4 wounds. So you'd def want that FNP up!

Of all the flyers out there, are there any in particular your nids do fear then?

Hmmm....guess my math is a little off.

I fear flyers with a high output for damage. Heldrakes aren't as scary because they can only vector-strike, which can be mitigated somewhat by either positioning or assaulting the enemy. And then when they do VS the flyrant, you are in prime position next turn to get rear shots at it (assuming you survive). Other flyers like vendettas and necron scythes have a higher output of damage and they can do so from a distance as well. Thus, you won't be able to get to the rear of the vendetta to try to take it down. And night scythes with their AV11 isn't as easy to take down. Stormravens I'm not as concerned about due to their lower damage output, though they are very hard to put down for tyranids. As for Forgeworld, I guess they could hurt depending on what type of FW flyer.

GK Storm Ravens are particularly effective against Psyker heavy armies such as Nids.

Avenger Strike Fighter with its Heavy 7 Str6 AP3 shots and Lascannons at BS3 + Starfing Run could be effective in taking out Tervigons or Flyrants. Although with side and rear AV10 with only 2 HP, it won't survive shooting from a second dakka Flyrant.

Also, congrats on the CSM + Daemons game.

Played against two flyrants with the tl dakka ness at a tourny last weekend, managed to kill one with interceptor from two lots of hyperios's (he managed to jink one then grounded himself and lost his last wound), he did have iron arm on both tyrants and a tervigon but he kept the tyrants in reserve not relising he has to be on the board to cast the power, I wasnt going to correct him as they would have been a bitch to kill with iron arm!.

It is Day #2 and the games are only getting harder. After going 3-1 on Day #1, now I will be playing against the other winners. I predict no easy games coming up today. I am going to have to fight for all my games. Also, I've got my work cut out for me for the Best Tyranid player. Currently, Janthkin is one of the few undefeated tyranid players left at 4-0. There may be another 1 or 2 bug players ahead of me as well, with either a 4-0 or a 3-0-1 record (W-L-D). I can't make any mistakes. I think I need to win all my remaining 3 games in order to have any chance at the honor.

But first up, I need to get past Dr. Insanotron himself, Ben Cromwell's grey knights. It's not going to be an easy battle.


Game #5 vs Grey Knights


Ben Cromwell (aka Dr. Insanotron) from Sinister Wargaming is a seasoned and very good tournament player. He has been playing competitively for a while now and in his last tournament, the TSHFT 2013, he won Best Overall in his class (Class A). He is 3-1 coming into this game, having just lost his last game narrowly against Janthkin's tyranids by only 1-pt. But mainly, I know he is good because during our game, Reece came over and told me that he was a very good player. (Strangely enough, Reece didn't tell Ben that I was a very good player. )


1750 Hive Fleet Pandora (My list)

Flyrant - 2x TL-Devourers
Flyrant - 2x TL-Devourers

Doom of Ma'lantai - Mycetic Spore
3x Hive Guards
2x Zoanthropes

Tervigon - Adrenal Glands, Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Onslaught, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs
10x Termagants
Tervigon - Adrenal Glands, Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Onslaught, Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs
10x Termagants

15x Gargoyles - Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

2x Biovores
2x Biovores



1750 Grey Knights

Coteaz

10x Grey Knights - 2x Psycannons
10x Grey Knights - 2x Psycannons
10x Grey Knights - 2x Psycannons, Rhino
9x Grey Knights - 1x Psycannon, Rhino
5x Henchmen
5x Henchmen

Storm Raven - TL-Assault Cannon, TL-Multi-melta
Storm Raven - TL-Assault Cannon, TL-Multi-melta

Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Psyfleman Dread - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo


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Mission: Bay Area Open Scenario #5 - Purge the Alien (4pts) & The Scouring (3pts)

The way the BAO scenarios work is this. There are always 2 book missions, one worth 4 points and the other worth 3 points. There are also the 3 bonus points - First Blood, Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker - for a possible total of 10 points. Whoever gets the most points wins. In scenario #5, The Scouring is worth 3-points and Purge the Alien worth 4-points.


Deployment: Vanguard Strike


Initiative: Grey Knights


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PRE-GAME THOUGHTS:

Ben has a very good army. However, his knights are missing 1 very important element - psybolt ammo. I guess that he is in the camp where psybolt ammo is just a luxury. I am in the camp where psybolt ammo on a 10-man striker unit is mandatory. Other than that, I like his list. While my flyrants aren't afraid of his storm ravens, they will give me some problems. Mindstrike missiles will hurt my tervigons and I have no defense against them. My opponent will have 2 large problems, however....both of my flyrants has got Iron Arm! The last time that happened in a match against striker-spam grey knights, I destroyed them. So I feel good going into this match. I think my opponent will be the slight underdog in this matchup.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Deployment:




-------------------------------------------------------------------


Grey Knights 1




Tyranids 1




Grey Knights 2




Tyranids 2




Grey Knights 3




Tyranids 3




Grey Knights 4




Tyranids 4




Grey Knights 5




Tyranids 5




Grey Knights 6




Tyranids 6




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POST-GAME THOUGHTS:

He really did well to stay in this and pull the draw, I think there was a fair exchange of luck on both sides. He must have been so upset for giving you FB lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Very intense game, best so far btw!

 Red Corsair wrote:
He really did well to stay in this and pull the draw, I think there was a fair exchange of luck on both sides. He must have been so upset for giving you FB lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Very intense game, best so far btw!

Thanks. This was my closest game yet and I absolutely loved it (until the very stupid mistake on my part at the end).

Yeah, I'm sure he was probably kicking himself for that. Though in all fairness, 24 TL-S6 shots should have killed that rhino. 18 hits, 6 glances/pens would have been the average.

Yeah - the turkey can vector strike flyers as that was what it is designed to do. That is bunk and won't happen at Wargames as that is against the rules as written for it. Why change it when there is nothing "ambiguous" as it specifically states it can do it. Two turkeys could have meant one flyrant down - which would have been helpful.

Still you would have won the game as you have so much more deadly bits but still - meh.[

But congrats on everything else - the army is top notch - and like I said I don't think the game outcome would have been different as he would have to fly both over one - and then roll one and then another - if he got lucky with one the other's vector hits would have been lost etc. Most likely he would have gone after the wounded one and needed to do 3 wounds etc.

that first game loss was rough too - stupid 6's for necrons getting even better then just rolling the 6.

 SabrX wrote:
GK Storm Ravens are particularly effective against Psyker heavy armies such as Nids.

Avenger Strike Fighter with its Heavy 7 Str6 AP3 shots and Lascannons at BS3 + Starfing Run could be effective in taking out Tervigons or Flyrants. Although with side and rear AV10 with only 2 HP, it won't survive shooting from a second dakka Flyrant.

Also, congrats on the CSM + Daemons game.

Yeah, those ravens did a number on my bugs in my Game #5.

Haven't played against the Avenger, but their alpha-strike capability would definitely hurt. Each one could probably kill a flyrant so against them, I'd probably try to get into combat as quickly as possible.

MarkyMark wrote:
Played against two flyrants with the tl dakka ness at a tourny last weekend, managed to kill one with interceptor from two lots of hyperios's (he managed to jink one then grounded himself and lost his last wound), he did have iron arm on both tyrants and a tervigon but he kept the tyrants in reserve not relising he has to be on the board to cast the power, I wasnt going to correct him as they would have been a bitch to kill with iron arm!.

Shame on the tyranid player for not knowing that. It really cost him. So far, I have never left my flyrants in reserves. They have stayed on the board in every single game so far.

So how'd you end up doing in your tournament?

I think that might have been a mistake on the BAO open judges. The units should still be able to vector strike flyers specifically flyers because GW gives permission to do it in the GW FAQ. The rules that talk about not hitting flyers would be things such as Imoteks storm and etc because those don't otherwise. The big thing is GW FAQ says it can hit flyers it can hit flyers.

The FAQ is only suppose to cover places that need to get answered because GW hasn't answered them.

In any other game I would have mentioned it considering I was running 2 squads of 3 hyperios as well it was going to hurt him deepstriking. I ended up coming fourth due to me handing the wrong results in for game 1, I got three wins (two by tabling GK armies) and 2 draws against the same person, it was knockout style, the draws were against Azreal with 50 guardsmen first game I forgot to combat squad which cost me the win I then went on to lose to necrons for 3rd 4th place. I have only been playing 6 months and theres quite a few seasoned tourny players there so happy with that.

 GoatboyBBMA wrote:
Yeah - the turkey can vector strike flyers as that was what it is designed to do. That is bunk and won't happen at Wargames as that is against the rules as written for it. Why change it when there is nothing "ambiguous" as it specifically states it can do it. Two turkeys could have meant one flyrant down - which would have been helpful.

Still you would have won the game as you have so much more deadly bits but still - meh.

But congrats on everything else - the army is top notch - and like I said I don't think the game outcome would have been different as he would have to fly both over one - and then roll one and then another - if he got lucky with one the other's vector hits would have been lost etc. Most likely he would have gone after the wounded one and needed to do 3 wounds etc.

that first game loss was rough too - stupid 6's for necrons getting even better then just rolling the 6.

Perhaps they weren't thinking about vector strikes when they worded the FAQ. Perhaps they were thinking about all the other "attacks". However, vector strike does happen to fall under the category of "attacks that causes hits/wounds/armour penetration without having to roll to hit". Maybe we were the minority who played it as such and most other people there played it as you can do it. I'd be slightly curious, though I don't think it would have changed the outcome.

Too bad you didn't come to the BAO this time around. I would have loved to play against one of you Texans.

Darkwynn wrote:
I think that might have been a mistake on the BAO open judges. The units should still be able to vector strike flyers specifically flyers because GW gives permission to do it in the GW FAQ. The rules that talk about not hitting flyers would be things such as Imoteks storm and etc because those don't otherwise. The big thing is GW FAQ says it can hit flyers it can hit flyers.

The FAQ is only suppose to cover places that need to get answered because GW hasn't answered them.

Perhaps. We were probably the minority who played it this way. I have a feeling most of the other players weren't even aware of the FAQ.

MarkyMark wrote:
In any other game I would have mentioned it considering I was running 2 squads of 3 hyperios as well it was going to hurt him deepstriking. I ended up coming fourth due to me handing the wrong results in for game 1, I got three wins (two by tabling GK armies) and 2 draws against the same person, it was knockout style, the draws were against Azreal with 50 guardsmen first game I forgot to combat squad which cost me the win I then went on to lose to necrons for 3rd 4th place. I have only been playing 6 months and theres quite a few seasoned tourny players there so happy with that.

Congrats! 4th is very respectable for such a new player to do against grizzled old veterans in a competitive environment.

Probably Jy2.

When we wrote that we decided not to put anything in the FAQ about not effecting vector strikes because of GW's ruling on Vector strikes in the main FAQ. Sorry if that caused confusion.

No worries. I only played against helturkeys once. And actually, if my opponent insisted, I would have let him do it as I didn't agree with the FAQ either.

Hey guys, just to clarify, you can vector strike Flyers. We have a hierarchy of rules clarifications.

1.) GW Rule Books
2.) GW Errata and FAQ
3.) BAO FAQ

Anything GW says trumps us. Sorry if that was confusing, I will talk to the guys in our next council meeting to get a clarification on that to avoid confusion.

 Reecius wrote:
Hey guys, just to clarify, you can vector strike Flyers. We have a hierarchy of rules clarifications.

1.) GW Rule Books
2.) GW Errata and FAQ
3.) BAO FAQ

Anything GW says trumps us. Sorry if that was confusing, I will talk to the guys in our next council meeting to get a clarification on that to avoid confusion.

This makes much more sense.

I expected as much, Reece, but you'll want to put that in a preamble to the document, like the INAT had.

And note that places where the FAQ is meant to override the GW rulebook/FAQs (like the flyer LOS thing) will be called out somehow, like being marked in bold and/or labeled "THIS IS A CHANGE FROM THE RULEBOOK for ease of play."

Ah, thanks for the clarifications, Reece. Now it makes more sense. I thought the FAQ was sort of weird.

So we played it wrong.

I want to apologize to my Game #4 opponent, Steve. Had I not brought up the FAQ, we would have played it the right way. Despite that, Steve was a class act and took his beating with a friendly smile despite having 1 arm tied behind his back.

Yeah, we will add some clarification text to the document. Sorry for the confusion, definitely not intended. The parts where we actually changed things are prefaced with: for the sake of ease in this tournament......

We will do the reverse, too.

Gaming up later tonight....Game #6 vs Blackmoor's Draigowing!

Sweet!

 jy2 wrote:


Gaming up later tonight....Game #6 vs Blackmoor's Draigowing!

I wonder how that will turn out?

Reecius wrote:Hey guys, just to clarify, you can vector strike Flyers. We have a hierarchy of rules clarifications.

1.) GW Rule Books
2.) GW Errata and FAQ
3.) BAO FAQ

Anything GW says trumps us. Sorry if that was confusing, I will talk to the guys in our next council meeting to get a clarification on that to avoid confusion.

Its just easier if we all blame the Reece guy that wore short shorts to a team tournament.

jy2 wrote:

Gaming up later tonight....Game #6 vs Blackmoor's Draigowing!

Should be an interesting match-up. Not sure the silver bullies will handle a horde too well.

As for your game 4 nail biter it reminded me a lot of one of my games. It hasnt been posted yet but hopefully I can get them done by mid-week.

Short shorts rule! hahaha

 Reecius wrote:
Short shorts rule! hahaha

I'm sorry but I had to

Brutal draw! I bet that just as you are kicking yourself for that final Tyrant move not getting Linebreaker, though, your opponent is kicking himself for casting Fortitude with that Rhino and giving you First Blood.

I'm looking forward to seeing the play-by-play on Game Six!

Also I'm not sure you would have to be wholey within the deployment zone, the rule just says you need one model from a scoring or denial unit in the enemies deployment zone.

Eldercaveman wrote:
Also I'm not sure you would have to be wholey within the deployment zone, the rule just says you need one model from a scoring or denial unit in the enemies deployment zone.

QFT! There is no requirement to be wholly within the deployment zone. Unless you all had a faq establishing that requirement.

 Tomb King wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Also I'm not sure you would have to be wholey within the deployment zone, the rule just says you need one model from a scoring or denial unit in the enemies deployment zone.

QFT! There is no requirement to be wholly within the deployment zone. Unless you all had a faq establishing that requirement.

It's in the rulebook FAQ. Has to be whole model (or rather, base of the model)