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2013/03/11 15:15:16
Subject: 1750 - Jy2's Road to the Bay Area Open GT - Hive Fleet Pandora (Army Pics on p.3, Game #6 on p.8)
He kept on screening and moving back the tervigon who had the relic with units so I came up with plan B. Move past the hive guard and get an additional assault move to the Zoanthropes and then when I hacked them down I would get a consolidation move. It is a good way to get extra movement out of a slow moving unit. If the game goes one more turn I should win the game. The primary is big guns never tire so I would have assaulted his biovores with Draigo and he would have contested that objective and would have gotten +1 VP for killing a heavy support choice and we would have ended up tied on objectives (1 each) giving me primary and him secondary.
I do not want to take anything away from JY2's win, but I was still thinking more about my last game than this game. I bunched up my units when he has biovores, and it did not help in turn #2 when I failed about 8 out of 10 saves from them. Also I did not cast Warp Quake which would slow down the Doom.
Still if was a great game. One of my favorite things to do in 40k is to try to figure out how I am going to win when I am way behind. I almost pulled it out, but not quite.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SabrX wrote: Wow, well played Jy2. Stalling Draigo, hunting GK support units, and ignoring the Paladins helped the Nids achieve victory. It's nice having Iron Army monstrous creature holding onto Relic.
Nice try Blackmoor. It sucks to have model few millimeters away from contesting. Perhaps combating squad the Paladins would've helped. That way one unit can chase after the Relic and the other hold onto Big Guns objective.
Seems you two had an exciting match.
He played a great game. The problem was that whoever went first had a huge advantage with the relic. The person who went first would be on it turn #2. He could not take it away from me, and he could screen me from it when he picked it up.
JY2 knows his paladins and one of their big weakness is that you can screen them since they have to assault the unit that they shoot.
The zoan was a somewhat risky move. I thought that they could hold Draigo for maybe 2-3 combat phases. However, when I failed my charge against him, it just gave Draigo the extra movement that he needed to get closer to my objectives.
It would have been a good try but it still would have been tough for him to win it unless it went down to 7. Next turn (Turn 6), I would have surrounded Draigo with my gants to lock him in place. If he targeted the biovores (who I would have moved to the 2nd level of the ruins so that his flamer wouldn't have been able to hit both the gants and the biovores), then he would still be outside contesting range of the objective. If he went after my gants, he would have finished them off and we would both be contesting the objective. I would then win with the Relic.
Also, Blackmoor would have needed to get rid of my Warlord in order to even have a chance to win. Otherwise, the most he could have done was to tie even if he had won the Primary.
Yeah, not casting Warp Quake was another mistake. He cast it the previous turn when my Doom didn't show up but then forgot to cast it on T3 when my Doom did finally show up. I think he was quite stunned at losing most of his interceptors the previous turn so he was thinking more about how to preserve them from my flyrant rather than to anticipate the Doom next turn.
Going 1st was huge in this game. So was the roll to pick sides/deployment zones. I somehow managed to get both, which gave me a big advantage in this game. And yeah, being a Draigowing player myself, I am quite familiar with how to play against them.
JY2 knows his paladins and one of their big weakness is that you can screen them since they have to assault the unit that they shoot.
True, but there is not much in the game that is able to stop their assault, and charging 2D6 and consolidating can be a huge movement bonus for them, I sometimes dont shoot with them, or do not shoot everything so I can tempt the charge for extra movement. It is however something close to Russian roulette then...
I do think however that you should have splitted them, taking 3 psycannons and Stave with Coteaz and taking Banner and 1 psycannon and 3 hammers with Draigo. He has no shooting to really hurt the paladins and it would give you options to shoot screening units. It would offer you a second Holocaust Template, which is quite good against the small grunts...
As always analysis is easier to make after the game than on beforehand...
Yeah, sometimes it's better not to shoot. You don't want to overkill your target and deny yourself a charge.
Combat squadding is definitely a viable tactic. However, I find that with Coteaz and Prescience in the army, it is just too tempting to keep them (the deathstar) together in order to maximize on his benefits.
Fikol wrote: great bat reps! It feels as if I was there!
Valek wrote: Remember that each wound is a instakill wound as Draigo is ST 10 against psykers...
And they have a 3++ save so its not about taking time to kill them, it's about a decent run of saves tying Draigo up.
Yeah. It's just too bad I suck at making 3++ saves.
Tomb King wrote: It wasn't by design. Lol. I merely fotgot my camera.
Haha....I just hate it when that happens. You get all pumped up and excited about documenting your experiences....only to find that you don't have your camera with you (or that its batteries are dead). Oh well, at least you can still enjoy the experience.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/11 15:36:39
jy2 wrote: The zoan was a somewhat risky move. I thought that they could hold Draigo for maybe 2-3 combat phases. However, when I failed my charge against him, it just gave Draigo the extra movement that he needed to get closer to my objectives.
I thought I should hack you down in 2 player’s turns which is all I needed since I was not going to be doing anything on your turn.
It would have been a good try but it still would have been tough for him to win it unless it went down to 7. Next turn (Turn 6), I would have surrounded Draigo with my gants to lock him in place. If he targeted the biovores (who I would have moved to the 2nd level of the ruins so that his flamer wouldn't have been able to hit both the gants and the biovores), then he would still be outside contesting range of the objective. If he went after my gants, he would have finished them off and we would both be contesting the objective. I would then win with the Relic.
Synapse was a long ways away, so moving anything might not happen.
Also, Blackmoor would have needed to get rid of my Warlord in order to even have a chance to win. Otherwise, the most he could have done was to tie even if he had won the Primary.
I can shoot a Hive Tyrant out of the air with the paladins shooting. The turn before you made a lot of saves/FNP and you would have to do that again to stay alive (also if I could knock you down I could assault and finish it).
I do think however that you should have splitted them, taking 3 psycannons and Stave with Coteaz and taking Banner and 1 psycannon and 3 hammers with Draigo. He has no shooting to really hurt the paladins and it would give you options to shoot screening units. It would offer you a second Holocaust Template, which is quite good against the small grunts...
This is where our first game worked for you and against me. Because you came after the paladins in our first games I was reluctant to split them up. This let you see what they can do to your army and let you know that you could not deal with them. Also because I switched out Draigo for a GM my army it is a lot more resilient and can kill your TMC without working up a sweat (Iron Arm or not) and I should have split them.
Yeah, sometimes it's better not to shoot. You don't want to overkill your target and deny yourself a charge.
As a Draigowing player this is important to know when to do what. Against Lyzz I did not shoot at her one turn so I could get a giant multi-charge in that got me back into that game. You need to know when to assault and when to shoot.
Combat squading is definitely a viable tactic. However, I find that with Coteaz and Prescience in the army, it is just too tempting to keep them (the deathstar) together in order to maximize on his benefits.
I almost always combat squad the paladins. The reason why is that they have too much shooting and durability to be locked into just one squad. That is why I tell everyone to not go for the super paladin deathstar with the apothecary and techmarine. Having the one squad of 10 paladins is just not flexible enough for most games.
2013/03/12 13:24:57
Subject: Re:1750 - Jy2's Road to the Bay Area Open GT - Hive Fleet Pandora (Army Pics on p.3, Game #6 on p.8)
You still had a chance, but IMO it would have been very tough to do so. While not impossible, a number of things would have had to happen for you to pull it off. Who knows, had the game continued, maybe you could have....but of course, I would have done everything in my power to stop you.
In any case, best out of 3 the next time we meet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/12 13:25:27
Going into my final game, I am currently 4-1-1. Janthkin, unfortunately, just lost his 2nd game in a row and is now at 4-2. In the table just ahead of me (I'm on table #10) are 2 tyranid players battling it out (on table #9) so I thought for sure I was out of the running. One of them is probably 5-1 currently and unless they tie, one of them will probably end up 6-1 and win the title of Best Tyranid. Anyways, winning Best Tyranids is not on my mind right now as I have to go up against another tough Draigowing army, this time with 3 dreadknights!
Game #7 vs Draigowing Grey Knights
How ironic that I start the tournament playing against one of my Game Kastle mates and I will end the tournament against another one of my Game Kastle mates. This time, I go up against Bobby's (aka Grey Therion) Draigowing Grey Knights. The last time I played against him, he was thinking about bringing a Purifier GK list to the BAO:
However, after having not very much success with them (his purifiers), he finally decided to bring his low model-count paladin list to the BAO instead. And so far in the tournament, he has been doing a decent job with them. Coming into our game, he is at a very respectable 4-2 with an army of only 16 models!
Mission:Bay Area Open Scenario #7 - Emperor's Will (4pts) & Crusade (3pts)
The way the BAO scenarios work is this. There are always 2 book missions, one worth 4 points and the other worth 3 points. There are also the 3 bonus points - First Blood, Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker - for a possible total of 10 points. Whoever gets the most points wins. In scenario #7, Crusade is worth 3-points and Emperor's Will worth 4-points.
Despite the low number of models in Bobby's army, this is not going to be an easy fight:
- He's got all 2+ saves. My shooting isn't very effective against 2+ units.
- Against this type of army, I need Iron Arm. I only get 1 Iron Arm on my MC's (again, on my non-Warlord flyrant). Thus, I can't play very aggressively with my tervigons, not when he has a Brotherhood Banner in his paladinstar and he's sporting 3 dreadknights with S10 doomfists.
- Those 3 dreadknights are going to be a pain. 1 I can easily handle. 2 is a challenge, especially without Iron Arm. 3 and now I am forced to play defensively.
- Soladins are going to split up my "resources". They are both a threat to my gribblies with Holocaust and to my MC's with their force weapon daemon hammers. But more importantly, they will threaten my objectives. Basically, anything that draws my "attention" means I will have less resources to deal with his main body of his paladinstar and 3 dreadknights. And believe me, I am going to need my full force against his main offense.
However, I do have certain advantages against my opponent:
- I've got the volume-of-attacks that my opponent so fears.
- I've got enough gribblies to tie up some of his guys at a time. I can then focus on the guys not held up by my gribblies.
- While I did not get very many Iron Arms, I did get 2 Enfeebles. Enfeeble is going to be very useful in this game. Of course, his dreadknights will be getting a 5+ Deny and his paladinstar a 4+ Deny attempt, but nothing's perfect. In any case, Enfeeble + TL-Devourers from my flyrants = bad news for his paladins.
- Flyrants. He doesn't have much that can shoot down a swooping monstrous creautre.
- I've already played against Bobby's army (or rather, a variation of it) before. At the time, I used my casual, spam-less, non-competitive fun-crons and still won. Now I am using a much more optimized and competitive army.
- Intimidation. I've got the intimidation factor. At our LGS, both Janthkin and my tyranids are highly feared. Every time I've played against Bobby, his army has struggled. So going into the match, I think that's got to be in his mind....how good and how tough my bugs are.
Strategy-wise, I can't afford to play very aggressively against his army, especially not with his paladinstar supported by 3 dreadknights (or his 3 dreadknights protected by his paladinstar). So my plan is the screen them off and try to hold them in their deployment zone (or at least as far away from my main force as possible). I should be able to contest his Emperor's Will objective easily with my flyrants or even the Doom perhaps.
So ok gentlemen....place your bets.
Pre-Game Thoughts: A Daemonhunter's Perspective (by Bobby)
As JY2 Correctly points out, I was tinkering around with Purifiers in 6th Edition but just had horrible luck with them (2Wins, 2Draws, 7 Losses)! As the Bay Area Open was getting closer and closer I found myself without an army! Finally, 2 weeks before the event I committed myself to attending the BAO, dusted off Draigo, bought a third Dreadknight and begged James R. to paint the 6-7 models that still didn't have as much a primer coat! While there are many competitive builds for the current Grey Knight Codex, I wanted to bring something fun and fluffy, so I came up with the idea of packing the maximum number of Dreadknights, followed up by the second highest number of Soladins (or Tactical Dreadknights as I like to call them). Add in a small squad of paladins, Draigo and a Malleus Inquisitor and you have an army of 17 models, all of them as good as an average HQ! I never expected, even in my wildest dreams to get more than 1 or 2 victories throughout the whole event because my list is not all that competitive at all, so imagine my surprise when I ended up playing games on such high tables like 7, 9 and in this game 10!! Unfortunately, my list has very little flexibility AND I had played against an almost identical list earlier in the tournament so I had an excellent idea of how hard of a fight this will be!
Deployment and Plan:
When JY2 says that he will "play defensively", don't believe him! This is a tournament, he wants to be sure he has time to win and win decisively!!! Maybe he wants to play on D but I know that he will be attacking while not over committing his forces. I think that I will loose the game, but I want to give my army a chance to win if I get a few lucky dice rolls (such as a flyrant failing a grounding test in front of Draigo). I am going to place the objectives as close to each other as possible on one of the table sides, deploy Draigo, paladins, inquisitor and the 3 Dreadknights really close to each other and take the brunt of the Tyranid attack. With a bit of luck, have all my reserves come in by Turn 2 or 3 and launch a full counter attack (abandoning my home objective in the process)! In other words, I will try to fight the Nids piecemeal: forward assault wave (usually gargoyles, flyrants), mid-fielders and finally the back line.
The knights advance, after casting Prescience, of course
His paladins are out of range of my tervigon so fire at the gargoyles, killing 7.
His dreadknights then run.
Tyranids 1
Spoiler:
I cast my psychic powers and Enfeeble his far-left dreadknight to reduce him to T5.
Tyranids then advance. Flyrants swoop and stay behind the ruins for cover.
I focus my entire army on the Enfeebled dreadknight - both flyrants and my biovores - and manage to bring him down for First Blood.
1 down. 2 more to go.
Grey Knights 2
Spoiler:
His raven and 2 soladins come in.
His army then advances.
Wow, I make the mistake of putting my zoans too close to my tervigon. His raven, firing 2 mindstrike missiles and his 2 guns, take off 4W from the tervigon. The mindstrikes also kill 1 zoanthrope and put 1W on the other zoan.
Holocaust from a soladin and also the heavy incinerator from a dreadknight also kills 6 gants as well.
Tyranids 2
Spoiler:
The tyranid onslaught. Tervigon spawns 9 gants, who advance. Flyrants swoop. I Enfeeble another dreadknight.
When I said that I will be playing defensively, I meant my tervigons will be playing less aggressively. As you can see, they are hanging back. However, I still need to push the rest of my army forwards. I need to stop my opponent from advancing towards the objectives. That is my philosophy of Positional Dominance. I can't let my opponent get to the center of the board where he will be in easy striking range of all my units as well as threatening the objectives. I need to contain him in his side of the table. This way, I will have the tactical advantage. Even if he kills all my guys there, he will be out of position and I will have the objectives already. So while I am playing much more conservatively with my tervigons, my army will still be aggressive on the whole.
Also, if you will notice, I am preventing him from advancing by screening him out. Swooping flyrants will be in his way (unless he can ground it with his limited shooting) and gants will charge his front dreadknight, thus causing a bottleneck.
The rest of my army then moves. BTW, the right, wounded tervigon is on the objective which halves your charge distance. That will come into play later on.
Hive guards insta-kill a soladin.
Both flyrants and the gants manage to strip his dreadknight of 3W with their shooting.
My biovores have an amazing turn of shooting. 4 pie plates happen to kill 1 from his paladinstar as well as take 3W off of Draigo!!!
Gants then charge. I lose a couple to his Overwatch.
Once again, the gants triumph over the big bad nasty. They kill off his dreadknight. However, there is only 2 left, who then go to screen out his other dreadknight with their consolidate move.
Things are looking downright bad for my opponent!
Grey Knights 3
Spoiler:
His last soladin comes in far away from the action. I think his role is to survive so I can't table my opponent.
The raven continues flying forwards.
Dreadknight and paladins are forced to go around the 2 measly gants. Gants....you've just got to love those cuddly little critters.
Despite being T8 from Iron Arm, the paladins (and 1 PotMS lascannon from the stormraven) puts 3W on my flyrant. Fortunately for me, he fails to ground my flyrant.
Heavy incinerator from his dreadknight hits and kills 8 bunched up gants.
His soladin then assaults my right wounded tervigon and we both kill each other....not!
Bobby remembers about the objective which halves the charge distance (I didn't) and thus that assault is voided as his soladin fails to make the charge.
Tyranids 3
Spoiler:
The Doom comes in.
This turn, I Enfeeble the paladins. Both flyrants continue to swoop. I am going to do nasty things to those paladins with my twin-linked devourers.
It is now the gargoyles turn to tie up his dreadknight.
Right terivgon poops out 14 gants before calling it a day as a gant-pooper.
My last unit of gants come in and spread out on my Emperor's Will objective.
The rest of my army moves and goes after the objectives.
In my shooting phase, the paladins make a ton of saves and only lose 2 to Spirit Leech, my 2 flyrants and the biovores.
The dreadknight, however, is not as lucky. He takes 3W to my gargoyles, 2 gants and hive guard shooting!
Gants charge in first and lose 1 to the dreadknight's Overwatch. The gargoyles then safely charge in as well.
The other gants fail to cause an unsaved wound with their shooting and then charge in as well. Combat is tied with 1W apiece.
Dreadknight just cannot stand up to the gribblies. He kills off the gant and a couple of gargoyles before dying. Gargoyles then consolidate into the way of his palliestar. Sorry, buddies, you ain't going anywhere.
Grey Knights 4
Spoiler:
My opponent makes 1 last desperation attempt to at least kill 1 flyrant.
The Doom kills his soladin with Spirit Leech to deny him any chance for his Emperor's Will objective.
He is going after my Warlord (with FNP). If he can ground my flyrant, he can kill it in assault. It will be a moral victory.
Unfortunately, I would deny him even that little pleasure as my Warlord refuses to fall to the ground.
I have both the Primary (Emperor's Will) and the Secondary (Crusade). I've got First Blood and Linebreaker and am pretty sure I can get his Warlord (with just 1W left) in the 2+ turns that I have left.
With that, my opponent concedes.
Crushing Victory by Hive Fleet Pandora!!!
Coming up later....Post-game Analsis as well as my Tournament Results and Analysis.
That was a rough game for Bobby. He played somewhat tentatively/over-cautiously and it costed him. He was never able to make it far enough to be an actual threat to my army. Had he advanced more aggressively with his army and then dropped all his soladins to help support his core units, I might have had a tougher time dealing with all his units at once. But the way he played, he gave me ample time to focus on 1 unit at a time. That might have been the intimidation factor at work there. But in my opponent's defense, he wasn't rolling real well on his dreadknight saves. Losing his very first dreadknight to my opening volley of fire (and First Blood as well) might have set the tone for the game. I was actually concerned about this matchup, but getting rid of the first dreadknight then relieved a lot of the pressure for me.
Good game, Bobby. Eventually, you will get your revenge against my bugs one of these days or you can take it out on my new daemons.
This tournament analysis is more focused on my experiences rather than a review of the actual venue itself. I'm sure there are already enough reviews about the venue, so the only thing I have to say about that is that I will definitely be back next year.
So as we all know, there were a few Firsts in this tournament. It was the First major tournament in the US with Forgeworld allowed. It was the First major tournament with a women as the winner. This was the First time for me going to the Bay Area Open GT. This was the First time I brought tyranids to a major competition. I had high hopes going into the tournament. I actually believed that tyranids can win a major tournament (still do). Unfortunately, my dream came crashing down in just my very First game. What should have been a very winnable game for me became instead a disaster to my hopes and dreams. In what I can only describe as an upset, my first round opponent played well and I made a mistake that, along with a few dice rolls that didn't go my way, cost me the game. From then on, I have had to adjust my expectations. The tournament championship was already out of reach so I was forced to aim a little lower. But with the amount of fierce competition in this tournament, I was happy to go for the title of Best Tyranid player. I knew it would be no easy feat considering I was already starting behind most of the other bug players (who were 1-0 at the time), but if I played well and didn't lose any more games, I knew I had a chance to do so. My opponent would go on to a respectable 4-3 record.
Game #2 was against a dangerous IG foe. Fortunately for me, luck was on my side this game as I turned what should have been a close game into a route. My opponent took it pretty well, but I could tell he was as deflated this game as I was in my first game. There is that feeling of helplessness when the dice just doesn't go your way.
Game #3 was a game I was very much looking forwards to. I got to play against whigwam and his very brutal daemons. Fortunately, I've had practice against his army while he didn't have any practice against my army. I think my experience was the difference here as I knew exactly what to do against his daemons whereas he was unsure what to do against my bugs. Despite the stumble on the part of my opponent, he actually ended up doing great in the tournament. He would go on to win the rest of his games for an excellent 5-2 record, ending up 19th overall and winning Best Daemon player as well.
Game #4 was just a mismatch for my opponent. His army really wasn't geared towards fighting my bugs and it showed. But I've got say, my opponent here was one of the nicest opponents I have played against.
Then it's on to Day #2 for some more tough competition. Little did I know that I would end up playing against 3 grey knight players!
My first opponent for the day - my Game #5 - I knew was going to be a challenge to play against. He brought dual GK stormravens which are actually very good against nids due to their Mindstrike missiles. I was fortunate to get Iron Arm on both of my flyrants. This was a difference-maker and I was ahead for practically the entire game. However, my opponent played well enough to eke out the Draw (thanks to a mistake on my part). After this game, I was sure that I would be out of the running for Best Tyranids at 3-1-1. BTW, my opponent, Ben, would end the tournament 32nd out of 144 with a very respectable 4-2-1 record.
In Game #6, I knew it was going to be another tough game. I've played against Blackmoor before and he beat me in our first game. I knew that going into the game, it would be much better to try to avoid his deathstar this time around and go after his support units instead. My strategy worked out great as I was ahead for most of the game. This was also the only game where my tyranids went first. Combined that with picking the right sides and I had a big advantage from the get-go that my opponent just could not overcome (he might have, but the game ended naturally before he could get a chance). Day #2 was just not his day, losing tight, close games to both me and the eventual winner of the BAO, Liz Foster.
Finally, I would end the tournament in the same way I started the tournament - by playing against another of my mates from my LGS. Game #7 was another game that had me slightly concerned. However, any concern of mine was gone with my first kill and I knew that this game was mine for the taking. My opponent, Bobby, actually did much better than even he had expected. He actually came into the tournament with the expectation that he his army would get crushed in tournament play. He would leave with a 4-3 record and some respect for his unorthodox paladin grey knights.
So when it came down to the tournament results, I was listening only half-heartedly. Kingsley from my LGS won the award for Best Space Marines, going 5-2 and ending the day in 26th place. Janthkin also did very well, going 5-2 as well for 25th. SabrX missed out by just a few points for Best Tau player, ending his run at 5-2 as well for 23rd place. Lastly, Grey Therion (Bobby) finished in the Top 50 as well with his Draigowing grey knights. I only lost 1 game the entire tournament and ended up with an excellent 5-1-1 record. Despite my record, however, I was almost sure that there would be a bug player who finished 6-1. Then when Reece announced the winner for Best Tyranids, he started by saying, " And the winner for Best Tyranids goes to my arch-rival..." Right there, a smile crossed my face as I already knew what the result would be - I had won the award for Best Tyranid. I also ended up 9th out of 144 players. Well, it isn't the Top 5, but I can't really complain. I am more than content with my finish.
Thank you all for your journey along with me in such an incredible experience. And come next year, I'm not settling for another Top 10 performance. I aim to win it all. See you all next year!
This message was edited 16 times. Last update was at 2013/03/14 15:51:20
Good to see grey knights putiing up a decent fight, game 1, 5, 6 and hopefully 7 all looked to be fun close games.
Its a shame not seeing any near the top though, but I guess that really is an indication of where we are in 6th.
I managed to change round my draigowing list slightly for the biggest tournie in Nz this week. Having interceptors, strikes, and a vendetta with meltavets to help support my deathstar.
Anyway look forward to reading your last bat rep jy
2013/03/12 23:03:48
Subject: Re:1750 - Jy2's Road to the Bay Area Open GT - Hive Fleet Pandora (Army Pics on p.3, Game #6 on p.8)
jy2 wrote: Going into my final game, I am currently 4-1-1. Janthkin, unfortunately, just lost his 2nd game in a row and is now at 4-2.
Just a quick note-- while you and Blackmoor were battling it out, Janthkin and I were playing right behind you in the next row! You can actually see my back in your picture of Blackmoor-- I'm the guy wearing the light blue shirt and grey pants. Janthkin and I had a crazy battle but ultimately I ended up pulling it out, thanks in no small part to some hot dice-- for instance, my Command Suit fired his TLMP and Quad-gun at a swooping Flyrant, scoring 4 wounds. All 4 3+ saves failed and then all 4 5+ FNPs failed, giving me First Blood!
2013/03/13 01:05:16
Subject: 1750 - Jy2's Road to the Bay Area Open GT - Hive Fleet Pandora (Army Pics on p.3, Game #6 on p.8)
I love/hate when that happens. Something similar happened to me at Railhead - Tesla Destructor from a Night Scythe generates 10 hits, only one wound on my Flyrant with 3 wounds. Yay!
Make armor save, fail grounding test. Make FNP.
Arcs to other Flyrant (unwounded). 4 hits. 4 wounds. 4 failed saves.
And then some immortals finished off the first Flyrant.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
2013/03/13 01:39:35
Subject: Re:1750 - Jy2's Road to the Bay Area Open GT - Hive Fleet Pandora (Army Pics on p.3, Game #6 on p.8)
Use Iron Arm, perils, but still get to toughness 9, swoop into some terrain. Doom Scythe causes 4 wounds (despite needing 6s to wound, my friend can roll 6s like no one else) and I fail 3 saves, opponent gets Slay the Warlord and First Blood, I lose my mobile synapse, Hive Commander and reroll reserves Warlord trait (in a heavy reserves list), next turn no synapse units arrived from reserves, leaving me with no Synapse on board. Needless to say, I was sad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/13 01:40:55
Ailaros wrote: You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!"
2013/03/13 03:03:49
Subject: Re:1750 - Jy2's Road to the Bay Area Open GT - Hive Fleet Pandora (Army Pics on p.3, Game #6 on p.8)
tuiman wrote: Good to see grey knights putiing up a decent fight, game 1, 5, 6 and hopefully 7 all looked to be fun close games.
Its a shame not seeing any near the top though, but I guess that really is an indication of where we are in 6th.
I managed to change round my draigowing list slightly for the biggest tournie in Nz this week. Having interceptors, strikes, and a vendetta with meltavets to help support my deathstar.
Anyway look forward to reading your last bat rep jy
The knights are still good. I especially like S5-stormbolter striker builds. However, the proliferation of heldrakes have made this a difficult battle indeed. I think the knights have lost their top-tier status, but they can still do well especially when you consider some allies for them. I believe Andrew Gonyo (aka Target) won the Battle for Salvation GT with a GK striker/IG blob squad build. But yeah, it seems like necrons and allied armies are now the new top dogs. Almost every army who won a GT currently (except for Tzeentch daemons and my pure necrons) have included allies in them.
jy2 wrote: Going into my final game, I am currently 4-1-1. Janthkin, unfortunately, just lost his 2nd game in a row and is now at 4-2.
Just a quick note-- while you and Blackmoor were battling it out, Janthkin and I were playing right behind you in the next row! You can actually see my back in your picture of Blackmoor-- I'm the guy wearing the light blue shirt and grey pants. Janthkin and I had a crazy battle but ultimately I ended up pulling it out, thanks in no small part to some hot dice-- for instance, my Command Suit fired his TLMP and Quad-gun at a swooping Flyrant, scoring 4 wounds. All 4 3+ saves failed and then all 4 5+ FNPs failed, giving me First Blood!
You don't say....
That's 2 flyrants now that you've downed with just 1 unit shooting....both Kevin's and my flyrant. Maybe we should call your army Space Taurines, the Bugslayers.
rigeld2 wrote: I love/hate when that happens. Something similar happened to me at Railhead - Tesla Destructor from a Night Scythe generates 10 hits, only one wound on my Flyrant with 3 wounds. Yay!
Make armor save, fail grounding test. Make FNP.
Arcs to other Flyrant (unwounded). 4 hits. 4 wounds. 4 failed saves.
And then some immortals finished off the first Flyrant.
PrinceRaven wrote: Use Iron Arm, perils, but still get to toughness 9, swoop into some terrain. Doom Scythe causes 4 wounds (despite needing 6s to wound, my friend can roll 6s like no one else) and I fail 3 saves, opponent gets Slay the Warlord and First Blood, I lose my mobile synapse, Hive Commander and reroll reserves Warlord trait (in a heavy reserves list), next turn no synapse units arrived from reserves, leaving me with no Synapse on board. Needless to say, I was sad.
In my first game, something similar to that happened to my flyrant as well. My opponent shoots at my swoop flyrant and wounds him 3 times. I then fail all 3 saves and then die from the Grounding.
I also had a game against Kingsley in which he shoots down my swooping flyrant with just 1 unit shooting - his Shas'el on a quad-gun. That also gave him First Blood and Warlord as well.
As JY2 Correctly points out, I was tinkering around with Purifiers in 6th Edition but just had horrible luck with them (2Wins, 2Draws, 7 Losses)! As the Bay Area Open was getting closer and closer I found myself without an army! Finally, 2 weeks before the event I committed myself to attending the BAO, dusted off Draigo, bought a third Dreadknight and begged James R. to paint the 6-7 models that still didn't have as much a primer coat! While there are many competitive builds for the current Grey Knight Codex, I wanted to bring something fun and fluffy, so I came up with the idea of packing the maximum number of Dreadknights, followed up by the second highest number of Soladins (or Tactical Dreadknights as I like to call them). Add in a small squad of paladins, Draigo and a Malleus Inquisitor and you have an army of 17 models, all of them as good as an average HQ! I never expected, even in my wildest dreams to get more than 1 or 2 victories throughout the whole event because my list is not all that competitive at all, so imagine my surprise when I ended up playing games on such high tables like 7, 9 and in this game 10!! Unfortunately, my list has very little flexibility AND I had played against an almost identical list earlier in the tournament so I had an excellent idea of how hard of a fight this will be!
Deployment and Plan:
When JY2 says that he will "play defensively", don't believe him! This is a tournament, he wants to be sure he has time to win and win decisively!!! Maybe he wants to play on D but I know that he will be attacking while not over committing his forces. I think that I will loose the game, but I want to give my army a chance to win if I get a few lucky dice rolls (such as a flyrant failing a grounding test in front of Draigo). I am going to place the objectives as close to each other as possible on one of the table sides, deploy Draigo, paladins, inquisitor and the 3 Dreadknights really close to each other and take the brunt of the Tyranid attack. With a bit of luck, have all my reserves come in by Turn 2 or 3 and launch a full counter attack (abandoning my home objective in the process)! In other words, I will try to fight the Nids piecemeal: forward assault wave (usually gargoyles, flyrants), mid-fielders and finally the back line.
- 4000
- 1500 6th ed codex: 2 wins, 1 loss, 0 draws
2013/03/13 06:33:29
Subject: Re:1750 - Jy2's Road to the Bay Area Open GT - Hive Fleet Pandora (Army Pics on p.3, Game #6 on p.8)
tuiman wrote: Good to see grey knights putiing up a decent fight, game 1, 5, 6 and hopefully 7 all looked to be fun close games.
Its a shame not seeing any near the top though, but I guess that really is an indication of where we are in 6th.
I managed to change round my draigowing list slightly for the biggest tournie in Nz this week. Having interceptors, strikes, and a vendetta with meltavets to help support my deathstar.
Anyway look forward to reading your last bat rep jy
The knights are still good. I especially like S5-stormbolter striker builds. However, the proliferation of heldrakes have made this a difficult battle indeed. I think the knights have lost their top-tier status, but they can still do well especially when you consider some allies for them. I believe Andrew Gonyo (aka Target) won the Battle for Salvation GT with a GK striker/IG blob squad build. But yeah, it seems like necrons and allied armies are now the new top dogs. Almost every army who won a GT currently (except for Tzeentch daemons and my pure necrons) have included allies in them.
Well yes they are competitve as long as you don't see hell drakes, as i already demonstrated in my ETC testing, but with them in a pure spam is impossible. I think atm the combination of Strikers & palladins is the way to go, it also offers enought firepower to down 1 or 2 flyers even with AV12.
As already stated no army atm is a win against all, maybe now with deamon flamer/screamer spam out people will start making different lists, as otherwise that army stomped you hard.
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2013/03/13 08:23:56
Subject: Re:1750 - Jy2's Road to the Bay Area Open GT - Hive Fleet Pandora (Army Pics on p.3, Game #6 on p.8)
tuiman wrote:
Good to see grey knights putiing up a decent fight, game 1, 5, 6 and hopefully 7 all looked to be fun close games.
Its a shame not seeing any near the top though, but I guess that really is an indication of where we are in 6th.
I managed to change round my draigowing list slightly for the biggest tournie in Nz this week. Having interceptors, strikes, and a vendetta with meltavets to help support my deathstar.
Anyway look forward to reading your last bat rep jy
The knights are still good. I especially like S5-stormbolter striker builds. However, the proliferation of heldrakes have made this a difficult battle indeed. I think the knights have lost their top-tier status, but they can still do well especially when you consider some allies for them. I believe Andrew Gonyo (aka Target) won the Battle for Salvation GT with a GK striker/IG blob squad build. But yeah, it seems like necrons and allied armies are now the new top dogs. Almost every army who won a GT currently (except for Tzeentch daemons and my pure necrons) have included allies in them.
Well yes they are competitve as long as you don't see hell drakes, as i already demonstrated in my ETC testing, but with them in a pure spam is impossible. I think atm the combination of Strikers & palladins is the way to go, it also offers enought firepower to down 1 or 2 flyers even with AV12.
As already stated no army atm is a win against all, maybe now with deamon flamer/screamer spam out people will start making different lists, as otherwise that army stomped you hard.
I do agree with all of you that Grey Knights are no longer the field and win army anymore but by no means have they dropped from being top teir. Heldrakes are a problem no questions asked but to an extent that's because not many Grey Knight players have adapted to the task of ignoring or tanking through them yet. For example take into acount one heldrake is nothing, 2 is a problem but if you get to there side of the field and leave them nothing to shoot with then they are hardly a problem. This is where Blackmoore's list is a showing of utilizng interceptors to shunt his force and keep his guys out of the line of fire. His paladins don't care for ap3 flamers and if he were to go against a heldrake army he'd have no problems. Implementing the same style of play would be like putting inquisitors or librarians with terminator armor onto strikes/ purifiers to tank through the flamers. Dreadknights can take out virtually anything in a chaos army, and interceptors with ward staves can tie up and win against virtually any unit in a chaos army, if you can beat chaos you can beat just about anything. Ideally speaking grey knight players can't look towards spamming in this edition to be a top teir force, neither can they look towards SR's. 2 SR are not gonna fight 4 night scythes and doom sychtes. They really need to focus on quality. I'd like to see a chaos army take on a librarian and grand master led army with 2 full purifier squads, Utilizing an interceptor squad or deepstriking dreadknight to distract, tie up, possibly even taking out units, add in 2x strikes squads and now you've got a fully scoring army practically that can deepstrike on to the chaos side to ignore strikes while the 2 purifier units make their way up the field practically unscathed. Such strategy could be implemented against many other armies. Bring on the Necron wraithwing and lets see who wins in the battle of attrition between our 2+ and wardstaves possibly re-rollable if taken a libby and their unvul saves as opposed to role over and die. That is the style of play of GK that will win tournaments, Tanky, quick and hard hitting is the new name of the game for GK.
Well that's my 2 sense. On with the Battle Report!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/13 08:27:51
2500pts 2000
2013/03/13 16:55:08
Subject: Re:1750 - Jy2's Road to the Bay Area Open GT - Hive Fleet Pandora (Army Pics on p.3, Game #6 on p.8)
Well yes they are competitve as long as you don't see hell drakes, as i already demonstrated in my ETC testing, but with them in a pure spam is impossible. I think atm the combination of Strikers & palladins is the way to go, it also offers enought firepower to down 1 or 2 flyers even with AV12. As already stated no army atm is a win against all, maybe now with deamon flamer/screamer spam out people will start making different lists, as otherwise that army stomped you hard.
Yeah, I like the combination of paladins and strikers as well, though I lean more towards more bodies. Perhaps a Draigo build with 5-6 paladins, Coteaz, strikers, 1 cheap henchmen unit in a stormraven and dreadknights/psyflemen. Now that the new daemons can be insta-killed, I think psyfleman dreads are going to be popular once again.
I do agree with all of you that Grey Knights are no longer the field and win army anymore but by no means have they dropped from being top teir. Heldrakes are a problem no questions asked but to an extent that's because not many Grey Knight players have adapted to the task of ignoring or tanking through them yet. For example take into acount one heldrake is nothing, 2 is a problem but if you get to there side of the field and leave them nothing to shoot with then they are hardly a problem. This is where Blackmoore's list is a showing of utilizng interceptors to shunt his force and keep his guys out of the line of fire. His paladins don't care for ap3 flamers and if he were to go against a heldrake army he'd have no problems. Implementing the same style of play would be like putting inquisitors or librarians with terminator armor onto strikes/ purifiers to tank through the flamers. Dreadknights can take out virtually anything in a chaos army, and interceptors with ward staves can tie up and win against virtually any unit in a chaos army, if you can beat chaos you can beat just about anything. Ideally speaking grey knight players can't look towards spamming in this edition to be a top teir force, neither can they look towards SR's. 2 SR are not gonna fight 4 night scythes and doom sychtes. They really need to focus on quality. I'd like to see a chaos army take on a librarian and grand master led army with 2 full purifier squads, Utilizing an interceptor squad or deepstriking dreadknight to distract, tie up, possibly even taking out units, add in 2x strikes squads and now you've got a fully scoring army practically that can deepstrike on to the chaos side to ignore strikes while the 2 purifier units make their way up the field practically unscathed. Such strategy could be implemented against many other armies. Bring on the Necron wraithwing and lets see who wins in the battle of attrition between our 2+ and wardstaves possibly re-rollable if taken a libby and their unvul saves as opposed to role over and die. That is the style of play of GK that will win tournaments, Tanky, quick and hard hitting is the new name of the game for GK.
Well that's my 2 sense. On with the Battle Report!
You really can't keep your interceptors out of the line of fire of the heldrakes. Not when they can go into Hover mode and they have a 360 degree torrent weapon. Other than hiding behind LOS-blocking terrain or in a vehicle/building, MEQ armies will struggle against double/triple-dragon lists. The paladins are good against heldrakes, however. As a matter of fact, I think Chaos Space Marines have brought paladins back to life in a way....as will the new Chaos Daemons bring psyfleman dreads back to life. Dreadknights are good but they will get massacred by certain Chaos builds. Why? Because of obliterators. 6 twin-linked plasma shots will just kill dreadknights. I played against a Coteaz-triple-DK list in a tournament and I just took out his dreadknights with Abaddon and my 6 oblits with relative ease. And if they don't take them out, they can easily tarpit the DK's with cheap-as-chips zombies. Warding staves aren't all that common anymore and most GK nemesis weapons other than hammers and doomfists will have problems against Chaos with 2+ saves (Abaddon, Typhus, terminators, T5 oblits). Grey Knights can still beat Chaos Marines, but it isn't as one-sided as it used to be. The current Chaos army might not be top-tier, but they've got some depth actually.
Necrons are another army that will give grey knights problems. Not because they are better in shooting or assault, but because they can easily out-maneuver the knights. I think the standard currently are the crons. If the army can beat a good necron army, then it can handle just about anything.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/13 17:18:34
Hey jy2 another batrep question. Do you use any special setting on your camera for your photos? They are very crisp and always seem to have good focus. Is that more just your eye for a picture or do you do anything special? I got 2-3 games coming up on Saturday and I plan to do batreps for them with my new Fuji s4300.
2013/03/13 19:25:08
Subject: 1750 - Jy2's Road to the Bay Area Open GT - Hive Fleet Pandora (Army Pics on p.3, Game #6 on p.8)
Chancetragedy wrote: Hey jy2 another batrep question. Do you use any special setting on your camera for your photos? They are very crisp and always seem to have good focus. Is that more just your eye for a picture or do you do anything special? I got 2-3 games coming up on Saturday and I plan to do batreps for them with my new Fuji s4300.
No, nothing special on my camera....other than the camera itself. I just use Auto for the most part. However, for a sub-$500 camera, my camera - the Panasonice Lumix LX-5 is an amazing camera. Of all the cameras I've owned (which isn't actually a whole lot), it takes some of the best pictures, even in less-than-optimal lighting conditions.
I then edit my photos somewhat using Picasa - in particular the brightness and contrast - before uploading it onto Photobucket.com which hosts my pictures.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tetsuo666 wrote: Jy2, i like when you post a battle report ....and here there are (will) 7 !!! A dream !
Thanks !
Thanks. I will finish this report tonight when I have a little more time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/13 19:29:06
Always Nids . Yer you will get mismatches and GK's are about the worst for a list like yours . But you will also table a lot of army's with that list and . The main thing is it does not matter if you play friendly games or you play super competitive comps at the end of the day we all play for fun and if you don't we all know what those sort of gamers are ... Nids will always be fun fun fun . If you get first turn put 24 shots in the face of their warlord and smile as you get first blood and slay the warlord. Then brace for the pain if they last the turn you will win the game . It works for me. Lol
Please check out my video blog on painting tips and tactica.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Acefacehickers
And keep up todate with my hobby at.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Aceface-Hickers/611255408889511?ref=hl
2013/03/13 21:34:53
Subject: Re:1750 - Jy2's Road to the Bay Area Open GT - Hive Fleet Pandora (Army Pics on p.3, Game #6 on p.8)
Post-Tournament Analysis and Results coming up later.
aceface wrote: Always Nids . Yer you will get mismatches and GK's are about the worst for a list like yours . But you will also table a lot of army's with that list and . The main thing is it does not matter if you play friendly games or you play super competitive comps at the end of the day we all play for fun and if you don't we all know what those sort of gamers are ... Nids will always be fun fun fun . If you get first turn put 24 shots in the face of their warlord and smile as you get first blood and slay the warlord. Then brace for the pain if they last the turn you will win the game . It works for me. Lol
Actually, GK's are no longer the feared matchup as they once were back in 5th. Tyranids actually match up alright against the knights nowadays. So far in the 6-7 games I've had against the knights with my tyranids, I've only lost once with them (against Blackmoor in a game that I could have won).
But yeah, I'm having a lot of fun with my bugs.
Blackmoor wrote: I don't mean to de-rail the thread, but I posted on my blog my anti-flyer strategy for my grey knights at adepticon.
You can find it on my blog (the link is in my sig below)
No prob. And thanks for taking the time to write up your tactica. I think it will be useful to a lot of people.
You don't necessarily have to have a lot of anti-air guns to deal with flyer-heavy armies. There are many other ways to deal with flyer armies. Blackmoor's article is an excellent tactica on some of the ways you can deal with flyer armies for players using the grey knights.
This tournament analysis is more focused on my experiences rather than a review of the actual venue itself. I'm sure there are already enough reviews about the venue, so the only thing I have to say about that is that I will definitely be back next year.
So as we all know, there were a few Firsts in this tournament. It was the First major tournament in the US with Forgeworld allowed. It was the First major tournament with a women as the winner. This was the First time for me going to the Bay Area Open GT. This was the First time I brought tyranids to a major competition. I had high hopes going into the tournament. I actually believed that tyranids can win a major tournament (still do). Unfortunately, my dream came crashing down in just my very First game. What should have been a very winnable game for me became instead a disaster to my hopes and dreams. In what I can only describe as an upset, my first round opponent played well and I made a mistake that, along with a few dice rolls that didn't go my way, cost me the game. From then on, I have had to adjust my expectations. The tournament championship was already out of reach so I was forced to aim a little lower. But with the amount of fierce competition in this tournament, I was happy to go for the title of Best Tyranid player. I knew it would be no easy feat considering I was already starting behind most of the other bug players (who were 1-0 at the time), but if I played well and didn't lose any more games, I knew I had a chance to do so. My opponent would go on to a respectable 4-3 record.
Game #2 was against a dangerous IG foe. Fortunately for me, luck was on my side this game as I turned what should have been a close game into a route. My opponent took it pretty well, but I could tell he was as deflated this game as I was in my first game. There is that feeling of helplessness when the dice just doesn't go your way.
Game #3 was a game I was very much looking forwards to. I got to play against whigwam and his very brutal daemons. Fortunately, I've had practice against his army while he didn't have any practice against my army. I think my experience was the difference here as I knew exactly what to do against his daemons whereas he was unsure what to do against my bugs. Despite the stumble on the part of my opponent, he actually ended up doing great in the tournament. He would go on to win the rest of his games for an excellent 5-2 record, ending up 19th overall and winning Best Daemon player as well.
Game #4 was just a mismatch for my opponent. His army really wasn't geared towards fighting my bugs and it showed. But I've got say, my opponent here was one of the nicest opponents I have played against.
Then it's on to Day #2 for some more tough competition. Little did I know that I would end up playing against 3 grey knight players!
My first opponent for the day - my Game #5 - I knew was going to be a challenge to play against. He brought dual GK stormravens which are actually very good against nids due to their Mindstrike missiles. I was fortunate to get Iron Arm on both of my flyrants. This was a difference-maker and I was ahead for practically the entire game. However, my opponent played well enough to eke out the Draw (thanks to a mistake on my part). After this game, I was sure that I would be out of the running for Best Tyranids at 3-1-1. BTW, my opponent, Ben, would end the tournament 32nd out of 144 with a very respectable 4-2-1 record.
In Game #6, I knew it was going to be another tough game. I've played against Blackmoor before and he beat me in our first game. I knew that going into the game, it would be much better to try to avoid his deathstar this time around and go after his support units instead. My strategy worked out great as I was ahead for most of the game. This was also the only game where my tyranids went first. Combined that with picking the right sides and I had a big advantage from the get-go that my opponent just could not overcome (he might have, but the game ended naturally before he could get a chance). Day #2 was just not his day, losing tight, close games to both me and the eventual winner of the BAO, Liz Foster.
Finally, I would end the tournament in the same way I started the tournament - by playing against another of my mates from my LGS. Game #7 was another game that had me slightly concerned. However, any concern of mine was gone with my first kill and I knew that this game was mine for the taking. My opponent, Bobby, actually did much better than even he had expected. He actually came into the tournament with the expectation that he his army would get crushed in tournament play. He would leave with a 4-3 record and some respect for his unorthodox paladin grey knights.
So when it came down to the tournament results, I was listening only half-heartedly. Kingsley from my LGS won the award for Best Space Marines, going 5-2 and ending the day in 26th place. Janthkin also did very well, going 5-2 as well for 25th. SabrX missed out by just a few points for Best Tau player, ending his run at 5-2 as well for 23rd place. Lastly, Grey Therion (Bobby) finished in the Top 50 as well with his Draigowing grey knights. I only lost 1 game the entire tournament and ended up with an excellent 5-1-1 record. Despite my record, however, I was almost sure that there would be a bug player who finished 6-1. Then when Reece announced the winner for Best Tyranids, he started by saying, " And the winner for Best Tyranids goes to my arch-rival..." Right there, a smile crossed my face as I already knew what the result would be - I had won the award for Best Tyranid. I also ended up 9th out of 144 players. Well, it isn't the Top 5, but I can't really complain. I am more than content with my finish.
Thank you all for your journey along with me in such an incredible experience. And come next year, I'm not settling for another Top 10 performance. I aim to win it all. See you all next year!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/14 15:50:47
So just out of curiosity there’s always a lot of back and forth about Forgeworld units in tournaments, and I might of missed a one but I don’t think I noticed any of your opponents fielding any, but did you feel any difference in the results because of it? I figure most of the people there would be fine with it since it was clearly stated that Forgeworld units where allowed but love to hear what some of the opinions where after the tournament. Were some units over powered, some people spammed certain units, or did they just bring more diversity to the armies their but still kept things relatively even so to speak.
BAO 2015 : Best Space Wolves.
The best battle plans are the simplest. Just run forward and punch your enemy in the face.
2013/03/15 10:22:20
Subject: 1750 - Jy2's Road to the Bay Area Open GT - Hive Fleet Pandora (Army Pics on p.3, Game #6 on p.8)
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
- 1500 6th ed codex: 2 wins, 1 loss, 0 draws 
2500pts 
2000 
Mechanicus
Ravenwing
Deathwing
