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I really want to use this guys, but the points they cost...

Have you guys used them? How does them work?

I was thinking about giving 2 pods a beacon and try to deepstrike them very close to an enemy unit, so they will get to assault, and not eat fire.

Thoughts?

Only take a few power weapons. If you want give a couple SS but don't take a lot of anything.

unless you're BA (and even then they have problems) don't bother...

They still eat overwatch. And they are hideously expensive per model by the time you gear them.

The drop pod/beacon thing is actually a pretty good idea though. I really like it. Too bad the vanguards are just to weak sauce for it to be good. Try the same thing with shooty terminators with a heavy flamer. It's surprisingly brutal. The storm bolters let the flamer hit any model in a unit it needs to.

They're garbage, don't bother.

They're good as an interruption unit, to tie up some of those pesky backfield heavy weapon units (Devastators, Long Fangs, Obliterators etc...) BUT they're most effective as Blood Angels. In the vanilla Codex they're too prone to scatter to be worth taking every time - and if you have a homer or beacon that close, chances are you can interrupt that unit without them anyway.

They are most definitely suicidal, so keep them cheap - I run mine with just an extra fist in 5 men, that and the 'free' power weapon on the Sergeant of course. That usually keeps the unit roughly at or under the points of that which they're targetting.

You are paying too many points to "disrupt". I can "disrupt" just fine by shooting them in the face with a frag cannon and heavy flamer from a fragnought. And I never screw up because of drop pod rules and 6" disembark move. And I don't take over watch fire. And it's AV 13, not some chumps in power armor. And I come in on turn 1 if need be. Vanguard = fail. Oh, and it's cheaper!

The point isn't to destroy them though... it's to tie them up in combat for a few turns, if not the rest of the game. With your example of a Fragnought, if you leave any of the unit alive, they're free to fire back, take you out and then resume firing at the rest of your army. This is especially likely with squads larger than the basic five, or Obliterators in particular with their 2+ save and 2 wounds each. However, most of these units can't reliably take Vanguard down with Overwatch which is their *only* chance to shoot at them before being locked up, and they don't have the close combat power to kill them quickly.

There are exceptions, of course. Lootas likely WOULD take most down with Overwatch and outnumber what's left enough to decisively win combat. Termies would do a great job here instead, and can disrupt and likely kill any of the aforementioned units - but that costs more than the Vanguard unit and likely leaves them too far away to help the rest of the force. Though - in an army where they're troops, it's a good way to get a Linebreaker point.

If I'm spending 200 points on a squad, I expect it to kill a Heavy Support choice that I throw at it.

Oblits have power fists. The vanguard won't last more than two turns.

For lootas, or standard schlubs with missile launchers, I'll take the chance they can't kill my AV 13 dreadnought before they get fragged again and assaulted.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
If I'm spending 200 points on a squad, I expect it to kill a Heavy Support choice that I throw at it.

Thus sums up the problem with the whole BA codex.

DakotaBlue wrote:
I really want to use this guys, but the points they cost...

Have you guys used them? How does them work?

I was thinking about giving 2 pods a beacon and try to deepstrike them very close to an enemy unit, so they will get to assault, and not eat fire.

Thoughts?

(From the C:SM point of view, YMMV for other codexes)

If you really want to use them, do it! It sounds like you are aware of their problems, and are willing to accept them. They are expensive. Finding the balance between how much you spend on them and the job they do is not an easy one. You want to give them the tools to do their job, without breaking the bank.

The other problem is scatter. Which you know the answer for: beacons. In addition to drop pods, scout bikers can take them.

I think VV are one of the weaker units in the book, but that does not make them useless. You do need to be aware of their problems and take them into account. And they offer a lot of modeling opportunities.

I try not to give "it's okay for a fluffy army" advice, because everything is okay for a fluffy army. I assume all "advice" posts want efficacy analyzed. Maybe I'm wrong to do so.

I got some cheap storm shields and powerfists, and had some left over bods from the battleforce, to i'm making up a unit without jump packs to put in a crusader. purely as i can't be bothered shelling out $80nz for a termie squad. You're right, they'll probably get wasted after a turn or two, but it's something i didn't have to buy that i can then bring out for close combat parties. or just get them power-fisting tau, the smug gits.

Martel732 wrote:
I try not to give "it's okay for a fluffy army" advice, because everything is okay for a fluffy army. I assume all "advice" posts want efficacy analyzed. Maybe I'm wrong to do so.

It's not wrong to point out the flaws in things. Vanguard have more then their share. I assume people are talking about casual play unless they mention "competitive" or "Tournament" just a different set of default assumptions.

I try to offer advice in the context of the question. It's easy to say "don't take VV, they suck" And that's actually good advice. They are fragile, expensive, and I would not advocate them for someone who didn't know all the issues surrounding them. But regardless of their flaws, the OP wants to use them, and came to us for help. If someone has a theme, or an idea, I try to work within the scope offered. If they want to use a lemon unit, I'll try to squeeze the best glass of lemonade I can from it.

Yeah, I was not talking about competitive gameplay. I just wanted to share experiences and stuff about them.

Though I will not use them if I play vs chaos, but if I play vs Tau or Eldar, I don't see why I should not use them in a friendly environment, as vs them they still have a chance of doing "something".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thanks everyone for your opinions btw.

I like Vanguard in small units. personally I throw a Power fist into the unit and call it good.

They are really good at what they do. Consider the attrition they would face crossing the board to do what they do. Just a couple dead marines and you're absorbed the extra cost, but being able to hit someone so early in the game so reliably? I dunno. Pretty good in my book.

Now I use them in my RavenGuard force. RavenGuard give the army Fleet of Foot, so the charge distance on those Vangard should be good to go.

Any more than 5 of them is probably too many. They really aren't long for this world, but if they can kill a tank and maybe a Dev squad or something, thats gotta be a win in most books

The aversion is to the risk. NO ONE would exclude them if they hit every time, charged every time and made their charge. Its just that the shadow of fear crosses the heart of men and results in them calling such things garbage. Oh how glorious when they succeed in their mission though...

 Jancoran wrote:
I like Vanguard in small units. personally I throw a Power fist into the unit and call it good.

They are really good at what they do. Consider the attrition they would face crossing the board to do what they do. Just a couple dead marines and you're absorbed the extra cost, but being able to hit someone so early in the game so reliably? I dunno. Pretty good in my book.

Now I use them in my RavenGuard force. RavenGuard give the army Fleet of Foot, so the charge distance on those Vangard should be good to go.

Any more than 5 of them is probably too many. They really aren't long for this world, but if they can kill a tank and maybe a Dev squad or something, thats gotta be a win in most books

The aversion is to the risk. NO ONE would exclude them if they hit every time, charged every time and made their charge. Its just that the shadow of fear crosses the heart of men and results in them calling such things garbage. Oh how glorious when they succeed in their mission though...

I've recently started a raptors army, do they get that rule as well? being successor of the ravens and all..

Martel732 wrote:
Oblits have power fists. The vanguard won't last more than two turns.

For lootas, or standard schlubs with missile launchers, I'll take the chance they can't kill my AV 13 dreadnought before they get fragged again and assaulted.

Oh, rats. I thought they'd lost them! But a closer look at the Codex tells me you're right, so fair enough. And I'll grant you, the dread is better against those units in particular... but in the case of ML's you'd need to know that that's what your opponent is taking.

I accept that Vanguard could be better, and aren't exactly a prime choice - I'm just pointing out that they're far from useless.

Thinking about a list having 5 of this guys.

Kantor

4 scouts + Telion, camo
5 scouts, heavy bolter

10 sternguard, 5 combimelta, 5 combiflamer, pod, beacon
10 sternguard, 5 combimelta, 5 combiflamer, pod
Ironclad double heavy flamer, chainfist, pod

5 vanguard veterans, 2 power weapon (axe, maul or sword), sarg with hammer

Not the most competitive thing, but sure funny as hell.

pax_imperialis wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I like Vanguard in small units. personally I throw a Power fist into the unit and call it good.

They are really good at what they do. Consider the attrition they would face crossing the board to do what they do. Just a couple dead marines and you're absorbed the extra cost, but being able to hit someone so early in the game so reliably? I dunno. Pretty good in my book.

Now I use them in my RavenGuard force. RavenGuard give the army Fleet of Foot, so the charge distance on those Vangard should be good to go.

Any more than 5 of them is probably too many. They really aren't long for this world, but if they can kill a tank and maybe a Dev squad or something, thats gotta be a win in most books

The aversion is to the risk. NO ONE would exclude them if they hit every time, charged every time and made their charge. Its just that the shadow of fear crosses the heart of men and results in them calling such things garbage. Oh how glorious when they succeed in their mission though...

I've recently started a raptors army, do they get that rule as well? being successor of the ravens and all..

Take a Shrike count-as.

I'd find a way to give your other Turn 1 drop pod a beacon as well. VV are overpriced for what they provide as has been repeated already. But your will list will be fun, it is pretty awesome to drop in and immediately charge.

reps0l wrote:
I'd find a way to give your other Turn 1 drop pod a beacon as well. VV are overpriced for what they provide as has been repeated already. But your will list will be fun, it is pretty awesome to drop in and immediately charge.

Completely agreed with this sentiment. I used 20 Ymargl Genestealers at a small local tournament last week for this exact reason. It was extremely fun, if not extremely efficient, to wipe out devastator squads and Wraithlords on turn 2 with units charging the turn they arrive.

V

just finished making mine, 5 w storm shields and powerfists, no jump packs and wait for it......a librarian mwahahahaha gonna teleport them about the place, see how that goes. once again, just to reiterate: these guys have an absurd points cost and it was more for cheapness/cosmetic reasons (they do look badass now, if i do say so myself). gave them capes, they look boss.

Martel732 wrote:
They still eat overwatch. And they are hideously expensive per model by the time you gear them.

The drop pod/beacon thing is actually a pretty good idea though. I really like it. Too bad the vanguards are just to weak sauce for it to be good. Try the same thing with shooty terminators with a heavy flamer. It's surprisingly brutal. The storm bolters let the flamer hit any model in a unit it needs to.

Tie up the unit with some chaff first? Pick a unit with crappy shooting, pick a small unit that doesn't get that many shots?

VVets are good if used well. Pwep on the sgt, a storm shield+lightning claw on another and maybe a power fist. Tis expensive but can be very nasty.

i didn't read any of this. VV = don't do it.

Generally these guys are too pricey for the return on effectiveness. 6th edition is also a shooting based edition, giving VV even less utility. Thematically it would be cool to see them deepstrike down and tie up something important. i just feel that they are a big roll of the dice for not enough return.

urban warfare they could be okay? specially with the gates of infinity teleporting them from cover to cover. this is my plan anyway, and this is my first army since playing 3rd edition

If you have locator beacons on the table (from scout bikes, drop pods, and Blood Angels scout squads) then they can make great mop-up squads. I have found that they generally don't do well if you try to throw them up against top-tier units, but they can polish off vulnerable vehicles or wounded squads with ease.

pax_imperialis wrote:
just finished making mine, 5 w storm shields and powerfists, no jump packs and wait for it......a librarian mwahahahaha gonna teleport them about the place, see how that goes. once again, just to reiterate: these guys have an absurd points cost and it was more for cheapness/cosmetic reasons (they do look badass now, if i do say so myself). gave them capes, they look boss.

Agreed - enjoying the guaranteed Gate while we still have it - although I have been using the Libby with just a tactical squad, they can tie things up for quite a while if I need to, sometimes very helpful against opposing troops units on objectives.

They're kinda ok in a BA list with a Priest nearby(not in them)

They only scatter D6 instead of 2D6, which makes their Heroic Intervention far more reliable.


But they are still overpriced for that.