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Since when was 40K misogynist?

Misogyny is a hatred of women. There's less an issue of women being represented poorly in 40K and more just a matter of women not being mentioned much at all- which is kind of expected when you consider that the universe's most iconic aspect, Space Marines, are a fraternity in which it's genetically impossible for women to be apart of.

As has been mentioned a couple times already, in the majority of the guard books there's a plethora of well-rounded female characters. Not just the Guard books either. Eisenhorn and Ravenor both have great female characters, with Bequin being one of my favorite women in sci-fi period.

I don't think deviantart helps.

 Lynata wrote:

ragingmunkyz wrote:For ways NOT to do this see the "armor" on the Sisters Repentia

For some reason, the only thing I don't like is that little bit of leather(?) still covering the nipples. Makes it look like some sort of mini-bra, as if they still need to be ashamed of having teats - when all they'd think about is how to throw away their life in a manner that kills as many enemies as possible. It feels like the designers had an idea, but did not quite "dare" to go all the way because naked breasts are a no-go (look at the new Daemonettes compared to the old ones) ... in essence, modern day political correctness creeping into the setting.

I have to agree with the overall sentiment here. Speaking in more general terms: if you're going to go with sex-appeal, or something which contextually involves nudity, you might as well as actually carry it out properly instead of just halfway, because that leaves you with something in many respects as "inappropriate" or low-brow (as the case may be, and based upon those who would oppose the full/proper work), but necessarily weakened by the censorship, and which marks you out as a coward to boot.

And it's not a modern thing; it's an American thing. If that's spreading to Europe, well that is rather bad, but at the same time we are slowly getting better in this regard.

I'm probably giving the author too much flak.
Ultimately, I still feel he "devalued" both the Sisterhood as well as the Commissariat by presenting both organisations in such a drastically different and more humane light. Just like the Space Marines, they're not meant to be like "the guys from next door", and if he wanted to write a story like that he should've picked characters from a more ordinary profession.
But yeah, that has little to do with gender.

Without derailing the thread:

Hmm - one of the recurring themes about the Cain novels is how he makes it very clear that Cain is an exception - so whilst I agree his is drastically different to the normal Commissar - that’s the point.

I don't agree that the Commissariat is changed - indeed they are normally presented as written - indeed again Cain often points out this “normal” behaviour and attitude as a shortcoming - in his view. But again he is the exception, not the rule and few share his views in universe.

Many who he encounter he surprises by some of his decisions - like a recent story where a ranking officer makes a potentially huge mistake that could cost them the city, everyone expects him to execute the man (including several Astartes in the room) but he instead gives him the "you made this mess you sort it out" option.

As I have mentioned before, the darker elements in the mythos are still there – the “nice” characters still find comfort in the images of heretics burning, the routine of prisoners being brought in for weapons practice and interrogation techniques by children at the Schola, etc.

The Sisterhood – I think suffers more from other authors depiction of them as cannon fodder and annoying often as heretics – I note that a new novel is coming out that has a “canoness who had to eradicate her entire order for Hersey” – Really?? The Codexes are little better.

In contrast the Cain novels depict the Sororitas as grim, scary but inspiring warriors who are formidable in battle but importantly don’t always get massacred. The only “in universe” person who has anything bad to say about them is Cain himself and that’s only because he has issues about the Church (despite being a believer) and the Sisters habit of charging into the enemy, although even he has to say its usually effective. We have discussed at length before the Celestain and her actions.

Back OT – GW should produce more female characters for the tabletop – they do turn up in codexes – Inquisitor Valeria is great in the Grey Knights – but no model for her?

They could have done a female Necron Queen as they did for the Tomb Kings (lets face it the Necrons are just Tomb Kings in space in their new incarnation) and it would have given some variety to a somewhat bland collection of character models that is the present range. You don’t need huge boobs for the latter, which sadly is the usual knee jerk reaction by those who seem terrified of female figures – just do a Khalida style character and model.

and so on................

The 40k IoM is based on the early to mid middle ages aka the dark ages and IMO thats why women are portrayed the way they are in the game, which is a quite accurate depiction of women in society at that time.

And also its only human females, the eldar have loads of revered women in their society.

Also.. This threads stinks of hardcore aggressive feminism.... Lets not scorn others on the forum because they don't share our views. This is a friendly discussion about a board game, not a debate about the future of gender equality.

Evileyes wrote:
What I never liked, was the fact that one in 1000 humans or something similar, are psyker's. And all of them, every single damn one, is male. Hell of a coincidence that.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2730082a_99120201016_WoCHellstriders01_873x627.jpg

I once read about 2 very powerful non curropted pyskers in the Imperium, 2 sisters that are always on the run from the imperial Inquisition. The are going around the Imperium helping people when needed. As i understood it the Inquisition considers them too powerful, and want to kill them. 1 of them destroyed a warhound titan when protecting herself.

I also read about women being in high postions in the mechnium aswell as the Imperial fleet.

Patience Kys from Ravenor is a psyker.

Bequin was a blank, the anti-thesis of a psyker but still. There's actually been two or three female blanks.

I know for a fact that there's been a few women psykers. Don't remember their names but I remember their existence.

- - - - -

From a non-Psyker topic, those of you who've read Only War might have noticed that nearly 50% of the art in the game shows female guardsmen, from various regiments. Even the Commisar art depicts a female commisar.

Quite surprise this thread has lasted this long to be honest, but for what its worth......women in black library books, playable special characters etc. are needed no more or less then male characters, there just simply seems to be more roles that are suitable to male characters (for example any books written about space marines which cover a large percentage of them). The codices where its not feasible to have female special characters (Space Marines and all differing chapters, chaos daemons, CSM, nids, orks) only leaves Imperial Guard missing female characters and maybe it should have a female character but to include one purely because people throw hissy fits online is pathetic.........The psyker thing is bat crap carazy as well by the way, just today I put down a book about an extremely powerful human psyker called Xamagundi (I highly doubt I've spelt that correctly)..........Another thing to consider is that the target audience for new GW publications are pre-adolescent boys and for lack of a better term veterans of the game and whether that is right or wrong is possibly worth discussing but it is the situation we live in........I also don't like the argument that female characters shouldn't be there as a love interest as most male characters in the books have love interests.....also the HH books in particular are littered with characters of the female variety

I'm not looking to start a flame war but people shouldn't open discussions if they don't want to hear differing opinions to their own

As a footnote is it even possible to have a "normal" human of any gender in a fictional universe?

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:

As a footnote is it even possible to have a "normal" human of any gender in a fictional universe?

I think that is the point.
I have read a great deal of BL books, along with most Codex(s) since 2nd edition and some of the FFG RPG books. I have yet to come across a normal anything.

The whole setting is supposed to be caricatural. Space marines are all knights/monks, SoB are fanatic templars, GK are even more a caricature that I care to explain (One of them is spending his vacation in the warp, killing greater daemons and only coming back when someone needs to tale paladins as troops - wich every 2 days).
The only regular armd force is the IG, and by regular I mean permanently watched in the back by fanatical commisars regular. So no, nobody's normal. The most normal I found are the Gaunt novels, in wich the soldier depicted (men and women) can be related to. And you'll notice that most of the stuff they face is completely not normal.

Eldar and DA have (good) female characters, fluff and models. The IoM, in general, is pretty lacking. The only image you can find is the one of the SoB, who from the start are fanatical warrior/nuns/zealots - definitely not normal.

Add a female commisar and a female general in the IG book, add those minis + a few female guards, and everything's sorted out.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Misogyny is a hatred of women. There's less an issue of women being represented poorly in 40K and more just a matter of women not being mentioned much at all.

This. WH40K is Grimdark future battle with huge explosions, people running at each other with chainsaws, aliens attacking with arcane weaponry or huge armor-rending claws. It doesn't matter if a "normal" human is male or female, they're still equally screwed.

As many others already said, many books have a variety of strong female characters, especially the marvelous "Gaunts Ghosts" series.

Although I agree that 40k could need some more women, I don't think it necessarily NEEDS a system of perfect gender equality. Why? Because it's the grim dark future and everything is grim dark and bad. I think it has pretty much been established that the Imperium is mostly a horrid place to live in. So why is it surprising that in this system that is strongly xenophobic, extremely fascist, that employs forceful conscription of entire populations, genocide and a whole palette of insane atrocities, there is also sexism.
This is not to say it's good, but it's kind of the Imperium's thing.

Besides, has anyone ever given it the thought that the fact that the Imperial Guard is mainly made up of men (although as we just established, there are plenty of mixed gender regiments in fluff) is somehow sexist towards men? I mean I wouldn't call being shipped out to foreign planets to fight aliens or fanatics to act as meat shield with less worth than your gun a privilege.
Seeing as plenty of guardsmen don't actually want to join the Imperial guard and are forced into it or coerced by their culture and religion, I wouldn't really consider it a "freedom" to join the Imperial Guard.

You haven't read the Horus Heresy, Purge the Heretic, Gaunt's Ghosts, Commisar Cain, Night Lords or Path of the... eldar series then? Or the Grey Knights Codex?

Hell, the Cain books alone have a very capable lady inquisitor and her mixed-gender kick-ass retinue, a lauded regiment that’s around 50% women troopers, a female colonel who’s a hero, even a character who becomes a Lady General, pretty much the highest rank it’s possible to get in the Imperium.

The Gaunts books have Tona Criid, doctor Ana Curth, Commissar-General Balshin, even the blessed Saint herself.

And saying that Sisters of Battle are portrayed badly misses the point that they’re as strange and weird as Astartes are. Both are at the edges of humanity, be that through genetic enhancement or pious belief.

In the game itself, outside of the Black Library books, we have Inquisitor Valyria, who bested the Necron Tesseract Labyrinth, Commander Shadowsun, the foremost Tau general and warrior and countless mixed-gender Tau units (in the Codex), Wych units for Dark Eldar, Eldar Banshees and Farseers, even Gaunt's Ghosts and Last Chancers have female characters in their units.

Not to mention the largely female Callidus assassins, of course.

There are many, many well written and rounded female characters if you care to look. Both in the books and on the tabletop. There are far, far more female characters than there are in 21st century militaries, let alone in front-line combat units.

Strangely, 40K doesn't lack behind, it actually leads the way in equality with women.

Less so for xenos, who should obviously all be burned.

 Melissia wrote:
The Bechdel Test:
1: Story has two women, preferably named women.
2: Have at least one conversation...
3: ... that doesn't involve a man or men, or the male population in general.

If we apply the test to 40k, we should also count it when the two women battle each other even if they don't talk. Like if you have two female commanders fighting over a guffen. Even though they aren't talking they are still interacting.

This bechdel test always annoyed me when applied to media in general, maybe it had a use when it was applied to films alone as first intended but it wouldn't pass any tv shows even ones which are all about the sisterhood such as sex and the city.......and before I'm labelled anything I want to make it abundantly clear I am not a mysognist.........I hate everybody equally

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
This bechdel test always annoyed me when applied to media in general, maybe it had a use when it was applied to films alone as first intended but it wouldn't pass any tv shows even ones which are all about the sisterhood such as sex and the city.......and before I'm labelled anything I want to make it abundantly clear I am not a mysognist.........I hate everybody equally

Umm TV shows have an easier time passing the test. Most shows will past the test eventually and shows about women do pass easily.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
I think it’s a major flaw and is in fact killing the series and keeping it from being what it could be. This is because well rounded characters and varying personalities and perspectives gives stories depth, people complain about lack of love in 40k but how can you have love when every female character is a pious sexually repressed nun, a snobbish aristocrat, or a sex slave captured by the dark elder. Often those who make fun of the sisters of battle are accused of misogyny and often the accusation is correct but again what do you expect, they've been set up to be Sci-Fi snuff, with dd's and beads and a "device", that looks like a chastity belt around their crotches along with matt wards bizarre fantasies mixed in the sisters of battle are obviously not meant to be taken seriously and for the most part their not.

The Solution: Include normal female characters that aren't getting chopped up or sexually enslaved. I believe ADB has done a great job with this in his books particularly in Soul Hunter where he actually had a love story, and had female characters that played non sexual roles such as Octavia’s servants and female members of the bridge crew. I think Chaos would be the best place to start with this introduction, the Imperials have already been fleshed out pretty will and it’s easier to add new material than to change material already in existence. Where lacking fluff on the mortal servants of Chaos, this seems like a great place to add normal female characters, partisans and resistance leaders fighting the Imperium, or captains leading the warmasters ships(their not all commanded by Chaos Marines after all), maybe some that got tired of the old boys club in the Imperium and did'nt want to be either a nun or the wife/plaything of an Imperial officer/gangleader/noble. This is a blunt and honest post and I demand blunt and honest responses. No sugarcoating. I'm making a poll of whether you agree completely, somewhat, or disagree completely so I can gauge overall opinion.

We don't need any more tumblrfeminists corrupting yet another decent setting. You guys basically already ruined MtG and vidya gaems.

Also, how about we don't have men getting thrown into a nearly literal meat grinder? Why can't we have a couple nice guys in the setting who just relax and have a good time?

Oh yeah because 40k is a nightmare future, not tumblr.

Mr Morden wrote:Hmm - one of the recurring themes about the Cain novels is how he makes it very clear that Cain is an exception - so whilst I agree his is drastically different to the normal Commissar - that’s the point.

All I'm saying is that exceptions like that don't really make sense when you read how the Schola and Commissariat are depicted in Codex fluff, how they pick and teach their young. But I think I mentioned that somewhere else already, too. A character like Cain as a Commissar would be like having a nice Black Templar who has a psyker for a friend. I'm sure someone could write a funny novel about such a pairing, too, but it's just not something the existing background has room for.

I guess it's just one of the many examples where the sources deviate from one another, but it's no secret that I don't like the level of inconsistency between the franchise's different outlets.
That's another thing that Battletech does better, by the way.

Mr Morden wrote:They could have done a female Necron Queen as they did for the Tomb Kings

I don't think a female Necron is in any way needed ...
... but if they really wanted to go that route, I suppose they could have added something like an assassination unit like the Deathmark in a thinner, smaller, vaguely female'ish form (no actual breasts ofc). I think a number of sci-fi media have gone that route for their robot designs.

Thatguy91 wrote:The 40k IoM is based on the early to mid middle ages aka the dark ages and IMO thats why women are portrayed the way they are in the game, which is a quite accurate depiction of women in society at that time.

That's not quite correct, though. The IoM is based on a wide variety of things from all across humanity's timeline, and even the existing fluff already makes it very clear that there should be, for example, female Cadians. The rulebook mentions that birth rates and recruitment are synonymous for many worlds, hinting at mixed regiments (or at least mixed recruitment) not being uncommon.

And even in medieval Europe you had female peasants in army levies, as mercenaries, or even knights. This may not be "common knowledge", but easily accessible information in this time and age for anyone with access to the internet, or just a good library in their town.

BlaxicanX wrote:From a non-Psyker topic, those of you who've read Only War might have noticed that nearly 50% of the art in the game shows female guardsmen, from various regiments.

Oh yes, even the male-only regiments.

(I still think the Commissar is supposed to be Raege, btw)

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:Imperial Guard missing female characters and maybe it should have a female character but to include one purely because people throw hissy fits online is pathetic

I hope you at least realise that this is a fairly controversial point to make.

Seb 510357 wrote:Add a female commisar and a female general in the IG book, add those minis + a few female guards, and everything's sorted out.

This.

Actually, we already have that Commissar. She just was a limited edition handout for Games Day, if I remember correctly.
I think my own three-step program would be female bitz in the Cadian box, a female Lieutenant SC (rules and miniature) like the aforementioned Mira, and a "honourary mention" of some female officer in Codex fluff. That's all that 40k really needs in order to be brought "into line" with its own background regarding this issue.

Fire_for_effect wrote:I think it has pretty much been established that the Imperium is mostly a horrid place to live in. So why is it surprising that in this system that is strongly xenophobic, extremely fascist, that employs forceful conscription of entire populations, genocide and a whole palette of insane atrocities, there is also sexism.

But there isn't. That's the entire point. This is not an in-setting issue, it's a weird out-of-universe absence of what the setting's background already contains.

Fire_for_effect wrote:Besides, has anyone ever given it the thought that the fact that the Imperial Guard is mainly made up of men [...]

Source?

But even if it were - that may be sexist to the men within the setting, but obviously not to the actual players, whose opinion and perception of social issues is forged in large part by media and toys, and this includes 40k. And ultimately, it is the soldier who is seen as the hero, not the housewife or the baby machine.

Complaining about the IG being so gritty and unfair would be like having a Space Wolf player who complains about the Wulfen curse, or a Blood Angels player who complains about the Black Rage. It's why they picked this army, duh.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


We don't need any more tumblrfeminists corrupting yet another decent setting. You guys basically already ruined MtG and vidya gaems.

...

Are you serious?

Lynata wrote:

Thatguy91 wrote:The 40k IoM is based on the early to mid middle ages aka the dark ages and IMO thats why women are portrayed the way they are in the game, which is a quite accurate depiction of women in society at that time.

That's not quite correct, though. The IoM is based on a wide variety of things from all across humanity's timeline, and even the existing fluff already makes it very clear that there should be, for example, female Cadians. The rulebook mentions that birth rates and recruitment are synonymous for many worlds, hinting at mixed regiments (or at least mixed recruitment) not being uncommon.

And even in medieval Europe you had female peasants in army levies, as mercenaries, or even knights. This may not be "common knowledge", but easily accessible information in this time and age for anyone with access to the internet, or just a good library in their town.

Yeah sure but here's the thing... Both settings are male dominated. Written by males. For what I would estimate to be an at least 85% male audience. So it is to be expected really.. And just because it is male dominated doesn't mean its misogynous.

There are strong, capable female characters in 40k too, just as there has been strong capable women throughout history.

I like to think alot of women in the IoM work as government officials, industrial workers or stuff like that. Unless they are a part of the IG.

Agreed on all points. It's more a case of the miniatures line not representing what the background already suggests - and, of course, people asking what the reason for that might be.

Personally, I'm not suspecting malicious intent. Rather ... hm, ignorance? As you said, men making stuff for men. It's the same thing in the video game industry*. And the whole argument could just as well be made about skin colours in the Imperium, too. But at least that is fairly easy to fix for the average customer.

*: Although there are a lot of cases where certain influential people have a rather obvious gender bias, too.

I think the best pro-female example I can think of in 40k were the tertiary PDF grunts in Titanicus. They weren't shown as anything special but still rose to the challenge and lived. Still not the happiest endings for them either.

It is and frankly I think its a shame. It would be nice to atleast have some forgeworld female cadians or something... I think that is something that could really spice up armies and get them a whole lot of money in the process.

I do agree with you though

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


We don't need any more tumblrfeminists corrupting yet another decent setting. You guys basically already ruined MtG and vidya gaems.

Also, how about we don't have men getting thrown into a nearly literal meat grinder? Why can't we have a couple nice guys in the setting who just relax and have a good time?

Oh yeah because 40k is a nightmare future, not tumblr.

Seriously, 40K is not, and should not be, a boys-only club, either in-setting or on the table-top. You *can* have a couple (or a lot) of folks just kicking back, having a grand time... Paradise Worlds do exist in the Imperium, after all... but that aspect of life is not represented by the table-top game and barely, if ever, touched by BL. More importantly, though, we have references in Codices and BL novels of gender equality in large swaths of life in the Imperium... in fact, there is a far stronger case for it than against it in most aspects... but this is not represented by the miniatures available, by and large, and is generally under-represented in a majority of BL fiction that isn't centered on Space Marines (in which case the preponderance of male characters is a given), and is further exacerbated by the tendency for the various female institutions, notably the Sororitas, to be used only as cannon fodder in order to escalate the on-page conflicts so that another, male force can come in and save the day. Even the recent GK/Sisters kerfluffle could have been written differently that would have permitted the sacrifice of the Sisters to have been depicted as incredibly brave (they were, in fact, more-pure than the supposedly-incorruptible GK), divinely sacrificial, and absolutely critical to the GK's success against the Bloodtide. Instead, while that is... kinda implied, if one can read into the actions, but you kind of need to be reading above the level at which it was written... what we got is basically some Sisters get killed by the GK because GK are better.

 Crimson wrote:
Are you serious?

Yes, he's quite serious. Ignore him, don't let him drag a good topic in to feminist-bashing yet again.

40k is actually already more egalitarian in many if not most regards than IRL is. Female Inquisitors are almost just as common as male ones; their armed forces recruit people regardless of gender; the best unaugmented human soldiers are female, not male; none of the high-ranking human authorities have restriction on gender, from governors, to arbites, to even the High Lords of Terra themselves.

Amusingly, GW really doesn't have to do much to satisfy many of the requests by feminists in this thread-- that is to say, all it really needs to do is make a few miniatures for the Imperial Guard and maybe include a few more notable females (especially primary characters) in its BL books. It's not like anyone's asking for fundamental changes to 40k. 40k is already fundamentaly more progressive than IRL.

When I design characters for fiction (RP, story, etc) I occasionally randomly swap their genders after I'm otherwise done designing them to avoid gender stereotypes.

I think GW still operates from "unless there is a specific reason for a character to be female, it will be male" perspective, which is annoying. This is especially true for miniatures themselves. All the IG soldiers are male, and even all aspect warriors that are not based on guardian models are male, unless they're Banshees where "being female" is part of their thing.

 Psienesis wrote:
This is not a subject that a simple poll is going to provide sufficient options for.

There are several female characters in the setting (several of the named characters of the Gaunt's Ghosts series are females, after all, including some of the unit's Scouts and Snipers). As mentioned in other threads, there's Inquisitor Amberly Vail. Shia Calpurnia, of the Enforcer series, is a female Arbiter, and the protagonist of the series. The Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader RPGs have plenty of female NPCs at all levels of society within the scope of each respective game.

The Ravenor and Eisenhorn series are filled with female characters, both protagonist and antagonist, as well as populating significant portions of the background. All of these characters are unique, separate, individual characters that are largely integral to the plot.

The Sisters of Battle? Yeah, they're an all-female religious order with gear that is reminiscent of various real-life examples of BDSM fetish-gear. Guess what? That real-life BDSM gear is reminiscent of religious attire, strongly centered around Catholicism. To accuse the SOB of being "leather nuns" is kind of putting the cart before the horse.

Remember that the Ecclesiarchy has female members on some worlds, and not on others. Not every woman in the Ecclesiarchy is a member of the Adeptus Sororitas. This is also true of the Imperial Guard, the Arbites, the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Adeptus Terra, and almost every other Imperial organization you can name, with the exception of the Adeptus Astartes and, it can be argued, the IST.

However, to flip the coin...

If a female character is depicted as being exactly as good as, in exactly the same ways as, a male character... what does the character's gender matter? Is something gained by the character having a pair of X chromosomes? Is this character not, really, just a male character "in drag"?

Why is it that male characters can get chopped up, but female characters cannot? That's a form of sexism in and of itself, though it can be in the other direction as well. I think you're overstating the case of Dark Eldar slave-victims, and missing the point of the Adeptus Sororitas entirely.

Fully agree with this. The Ravenor and Eisenhorn series are chock full of female characters that give a good solid representation of strong willful non victimized women.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
We don't need any more tumblrfeminists corrupting yet another decent setting. You guys basically already ruined MtG and vidya gaems.

Also, how about we don't have men getting thrown into a nearly literal meat grinder? Why can't we have a couple nice guys in the setting who just relax and have a good time?

Oh yeah because 40k is a nightmare future, not tumblr.

My, my what a charming fellow you must be! I'll bet you're quite a hit with all the young ladies in your middle school.

 Melissia wrote:
Amusingly, GW really doesn't have to do much to satisfy many of the requests by feminists in this thread-- that is to say, all it really needs to do is make a few miniatures for the Imperial Guard and maybe include a few more notable females (especially primary characters) in its BL books. It's not like anyone's asking for fundamental changes to 40k. 40k is already fundamentaly more progressive than IRL.

This. No one is saying 40k is wildly sexist or inherently misogynistic, simply that females could be better represented, and that if they were, the hobby might be more appealing to the women. We already know that the women are a part of the background (IG, Eldar, DE, SoB), we just don't get to see them featured very often either in stories or in model ranges. DE is the one real exception, with 2 named female characters and options for female sculpts for almost every model. There have just been simple, logical requests over the course of this thread, and none of them would radically change 40k, in fact they would all give the setting greater depth. I agree, some options for female IG troops, and a couple of featured female characters in BL would go a long way. Even better, make a named character in a codex or two; I'd love to see a female Farseer, or a Commissar or Colonel, or even an Inquisitor for GK.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:


We don't need any more tumblrfeminists corrupting yet another decent setting. You guys basically already ruined MtG and vidya gaems.

Also, how about we don't have men getting thrown into a nearly literal meat grinder? Why can't we have a couple nice guys in the setting who just relax and have a good time?

Oh yeah because 40k is a nightmare future, not tumblr.

Seriously, 40K is not, and should not be, a boys-only club, either in-setting or on the table-top. You *can* have a couple (or a lot) of folks just kicking back, having a grand time... Paradise Worlds do exist in the Imperium, after all... but that aspect of life is not represented by the table-top game and barely, if ever, touched by BL. More importantly, though, we have references in Codices and BL novels of gender equality in large swaths of life in the Imperium... in fact, there is a far stronger case for it than against it in most aspects... but this is not represented by the miniatures available, by and large, and is generally under-represented in a majority of BL fiction that isn't centered on Space Marines (in which case the preponderance of male characters is a given), and is further exacerbated by the tendency for the various female institutions, notably the Sororitas, to be used only as cannon fodder in order to escalate the on-page conflicts so that another, male force can come in and save the day.

So? The Imperial Guard is typically only used as cannon fodder in order to showcase the heroics of Spess Mehrens but I never really hear complaints about all that. But it must be because the Sororitas are female and therefore deserve special treatment right?

Even the recent GK/Sisters kerfluffle could have been written differently that would have permitted the sacrifice of the Sisters to have been depicted as incredibly brave (they were, in fact, more-pure than the supposedly-incorruptible GK), divinely sacrificial, and absolutely critical to the GK's success against the Bloodtide. Instead, while that is... kinda implied, if one can read into the actions, but you kind of need to be reading above the level at which it was written... what we got is basically some Sisters get killed by the GK because GK are better.

Grey Knights are the best of the best and basically irreplaceable. Sororitas are good troops but ultimately replaceable anyway. Also how do you get more pure than in-corruptable? Is it in-corruptable (x2)? This is where the whole argument falls apart to me at any rate.

 ragingmunkyz wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Amusingly, GW really doesn't have to do much to satisfy many of the requests by feminists in this thread-- that is to say, all it really needs to do is make a few miniatures for the Imperial Guard and maybe include a few more notable females (especially primary characters) in its BL books. It's not like anyone's asking for fundamental changes to 40k. 40k is already fundamentaly more progressive than IRL.

This. No one is saying 40k is wildly sexist or inherently misogynistic, simply that females could be better represented, and that if they were, the hobby might be more appealing to the women. We already know that the women are a part of the background (IG, Eldar, DE, SoB), we just don't get to see them featured very often either in stories or in model ranges. DE is the one real exception, with 2 named female characters and options for female sculpts for almost every model. There have just been simple, logical requests over the course of this thread, and none of them would radically change 40k, in fact they would all give the setting greater depth. I agree, some options for female IG troops, and a couple of featured female characters in BL would go a long way. Even better, make a named character in a codex or two; I'd love to see a female Farseer, or a Commissar or Colonel, or even an Inquisitor for GK.

There's already a female Inquisitor in the GK book.

Also if 40k is already much more egalitarian towards women, then what's the problem?

Well there was that sororitas in Cain's last stand who did jump around someone elses bed so i guess the sisters weren't all that repressed

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

There's already a female Inquisitor in the GK book.

And she doesn't have a model.