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Made in eu
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Vladsimpaler wrote:So? The Imperial Guard is typically only used as cannon fodder in order to showcase the heroics of Spess Mehrens but I never really hear complaints about all that. But it must be because the Sororitas are female and therefore deserve special treatment right?
You have it the wrong way around. Is it not "special treatment" if they are the faction that suffer more than the others? Even the Guard is credited with more important victories (understandable due to numerical differences) and less massacres/fails (this is where it gets weird). The IG is the underdog - but an underdog that is ultimately meant to pull through. That is what endears them to many, including me. Few people would like the Guard if they'd be "all fail".

Also, you seem to lack a certain understanding of what the role of both the Imperial Guard and the Battle Sisters is within the setting. The latter are not meant as cannon fodder, and thus also should not be treated as such - just like you would not treat Space Marines, their equals, in this manner.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Grey Knights are the best of the best and basically irreplaceable. Sororitas are good troops but ultimately replaceable anyway. Also how do you get more pure than in-corruptable? Is it in-corruptable (x2)? This is where the whole argument falls apart to me at any rate.
Everyone is replaceable.

Personally, I never had a problem with that particular incident, by the way. I simply rationalised it as the Grey Knights' incorruptability not being a fully innate ability, but rather something that may require paraphernalia to be used to full effect. Paraphernalia like the "blood of the innocent", the lifeforce of those whose faith and conviction had preserved their purity against taint. And the GKs are supposed to employ Warp Sorcery now, are they not?
Also, the incident goes to show that the Grey Knights, or ultimately the Inquisition as a whole, is uncompromising and does not shy back from slaughtering allied forces if it serves their interest. Makes sense to me.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Also if 40k is already much more egalitarian towards women, then what's the problem?
Are you actually reading the thread? It has been pointed out a few times by now.
-> missing miniatures and/or SC representing that which already exists in the background
-> once in a while, dropping a few hints in fluff bits like short stories or communiques found throughout the codices

Viersche wrote:Well there was that sororitas in Cain's last stand who did jump around someone elses bed so i guess the sisters weren't all that repressed
I told you, Mr. Morden!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/27 22:12:12


 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





You know what the problem with the internet is?

It's that you can't see me shaking my head in disgust at the act that I'm dignifying this post with a response.



40k is a hobby. More specifically it is a hobby grounded in fiction. Fictional characters, fictional places, fictional rules.

I know I risk sounding "sexist" by today's standards for saying this, but equality of the sexes is an illusion. I would say that equality in general is as well, but that's another discussion for another time.

I say this not to add fuel to a fire, but because the ONLY reason women are perceived the way they are today, is as a result of specific factors that took place in AMERICAN history in fairly recent history. It wasn't a terribly long time ago that women lived VERY different lives than they do now. And it's not because humanity has "evolved" or "progressed" at all... it's because socially and economically it became necessary for women to work in the place of men in post WWII America. This led to many women having jobs that would not otherwise have had, and after a few years, when the men returned to work the women were simply dismissed. This led to a feeling of abuse, which women rallied behind and started a series of movements that eventually resulted in them being given greater social responsibilities and "rights".

For all intents and purposes, the "equality" of women to men is a political issue. Politics exist in WH40k only as part of the background. It has no place in the spotlight. It would just tarnish the overall experience.

Besides, in a the fictional world of 40k, where daemons ravage worlds, psykers rip reality asunder, and giant hulks of men stride to battle in mechanical suits of space armor, the "norm" is pretty far removed from what it is in our world. What would a "normal" women do in 40k? probably just as the writers have already said that they do, with a few exceptions as noted in the books they appear in.

"nuns" as you so bluntly put it, are perfectly "normal" in that sense. If you try and apply our rules of normalcy to 40k, you'd end up with something like:

Codex: Mothers against drunk driving. (err.... mothers against drunk daemons).

   
Made in eu
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

En Excelsis wrote:It's that you can't see me shaking my head in disgust at the act that I'm dignifying this post with a response.
Perhaps you should have read the entire thread first before "dignifying" it, given that half your post was already debunked before you typed it.

Also, lol @ American history. Women have fought oppression for centuries across the world. I'm not sure how many people here actually assume that "men>women" is some sort of natural law or some silly thing like that, but looking at various cultures throughout the history of this planet, the rights of women have expanded and shrunk and expanded again for millennia. Even the division of the sexes in ancient hunter-gatherer society did not exist prior to the late stone age.

The US granted the right to vote to women way before WW2, by the way - and it was certainly not the first country to have done so, having been preceded by various European nations. The Soviet Union did a lot more for equality, too. Much more than the US would do for decades. I have no idea how you get the idea that this is somehow an "American thing".
   
Made in us
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




The deck of the Widower

I choose to ignore the fluff about the female bodies rejecting the geneseed and have added a squad of female marines to my army. I find it more pleasing to see the variety of people represented in my models than just guys all the time. Now if only the story would reflect that.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Does Warhammer Fantasy do a better job? I've only looked at Fantasy for bits, but the Wood Elves have normal looking females. Well normalish since they are elves.
   
Made in us
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





 Lynata wrote:
En Excelsis wrote:It's that you can't see me shaking my head in disgust at the act that I'm dignifying this post with a response.
Perhaps you should have read the entire thread first before "dignifying" it, given that half your post was already debunked before you typed it.

Also, lol @ American history. Women have fought oppression for centuries across the world. I'm not sure how many people here actually assume that "men>women" is some sort of natural law or some silly thing like that, but looking at various cultures throughout the history of this planet, the rights of women have expanded and shrunk and expanded again for millennia. Even the division of the sexes in ancient hunter-gatherer society did not exist prior to the late stone age.

The US granted the right to vote to women way before WW2, by the way - and it was certainly not the first country to have done so, having been preceded by various European nations. The Soviet Union did a lot more for equality, too. Much more than the US would do for decades. I have no idea how you get the idea that this is somehow an "American thing".


I'm not sure why are you taking such a defensive approach to my statement, since it really isn't attacking anyone, and not you in specific to be sure.

Anyway, I don't recall stating anywhere in my post that the United States was the only country to experience a shift in gender roles. However I am an American and NOT a citizen of any other nations, thusly I am not qualified to give a detailed historical account of their cultural evolution and (out of respect) did not attempt to clump them all together. I in fact agree that the genders have gone back and forth a number of times throughout the ages. I'll pass completely on your statement about the Soviet Union and it's version of "equality". You either understand that or you don't. Nothing I can type on a forum will suddenly enlighten you there.

Also no one has debunked anything in this thread. It is a sharing of opinions about what role women could or should have in the fictional WH40k setting. Keyword there being opinions. You can no more debunk my opinion than I can clue you in on the realities of "Soviet Equality".

   
Made in us
Pewling Menial






The world of warhammer 40k is supposed to be sexist. The world of 40k is a mixture of a dark ages/ inquisition era europe with futuristic technology. That odd mix is what makes the setting so unique and compelling. It is the same reason there are very few, if any openly gay characters, or other "minorities" (I really don't like that term, but you know what I mean). By making the setting more progressive, it ruins the dark feel of the setting. Besides, the majority of factions in 40k are portrayed in a mostly negative manner, so their sexism in know way makes sexism seem good, in the same way that their xenophobia or excessive violence is never thought to be positive.

With that said, I do think when it comes to areas of the cannon where sexuality is portrayed, 40k could do a better job with sticking to their canon rather than appealing to teenage boys. For example, Deamonette's, are supposed to be androgynous and yet they are more feminine looking except they are missing a single breast. So yes, in the few situations where games workshop decides to deal with gender, they could perhaps do it slightly better, but I do not think they should make the setting more progressive, as it would defeat the point of it.
   
Made in eu
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

En Excelsis wrote:I'm not sure why are you taking such a defensive approach to my statement, since it really isn't attacking anyone, and not you in specific to be sure.
Well, the post came along as somewhat derisive/dismissive. I suppose I can "lose my cool" from time to time on certain issues I have a strong opinion on, so I apologise if I was somewhat lacking in diplomacy there.

En Excelsis wrote:Anyway, I don't recall stating anywhere in my post that the United States was the only country to experience a shift in gender roles. However I am an American and NOT a citizen of any other nations, thusly I am not qualified to give a detailed historical account of their cultural evolution and (out of respect) did not attempt to clump them all together.
Fair enough - from your wording ("...a result of specific factors that took place in AMERICAN history..." ) it sounded like this "political movement" supposedly somehow originated in the US, and that the only reason that sexism/misogyny are even recognised as issues nowadays is a hypothetical pioneering role of the 'States.

En Excelsis wrote:Also no one has debunked anything in this thread. It is a sharing of opinions about what role women could or should have in the fictional WH40k setting.
Opinion based on what? Personal preferences, or what the books suggest? Because the books present a rather openminded society as far as sexuality is concerned, and posts such as these ... ->

smeezilla wrote:The world of warhammer 40k is supposed to be sexist.

<- ... suggest that some people have apparently neither read the previous posts in this thread (which have already discussed this), nor the books whose contents have been pointed out in said posts.

Honestly, it's almost like people are just looking at the Space Marines, and take their "all male" trait as "THE IMPERIUM HATES WOMEN!!"

Admittedly, the very nature of how the fluff in 40k is handled by the company renders everything we read a possibility or interpretation rather than some sort of truth, allowing us to pick and choose or dismiss and ignore as we wish. At the same time, however, deviating opinions should not be presented as fact. Someone might actually believe it. Lots of "urban myths" have spread throughout the community this way.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/02/27 23:07:11


 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






En Excelsis wrote:

I know I risk sounding "sexist" by today's standards for saying this, but equality of the sexes is an illusion. I would say that equality in general is as well, but that's another discussion for another time.


Oh, wow! Well, if the intent was to sound sexist, mission bloody accomplished!

So do you think things were better a century or two ago? That it was totally OK that women didn't have same rights as men?


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/28 00:02:58


   
Made in us
Nigel Stillman





Austin, TX

 Crimson wrote:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:

There's already a female Inquisitor in the GK book.


And she doesn't have a model.


You're moving the goalpost. All the post asked for was a named female character, no mention of a model.
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Also if 40k is already much more egalitarian towards women, then what's the problem?
Because it's not represented very well on the tabletop or in the BL stories, even if it's there in the lore.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

Actually, no... the thread *is* about female representation on the tabletop, not just in general fluff. The lack of female models is a significant portion of the thread's contents. As I've highlighted in a few posts, the fluff is not as misogynistic as it can be made out to be, taken in total (yes, SM books have few to no female protagonists... that's expected, SM are an entirely male organization, Sisters novels have few to no male protagonists... that's expected, the SoB are an entirely female organization). The tabletop, however, has few options for depicting the established egalitarian nature of the IoM.

If you're not playing a Sisters army, it can be damned hard to find female miniatures from GW to fit your Imperial armies.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
You're moving the goalpost.
The goalposts haven't been moved. You're just not paying any attention,

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/02/28 00:41:25


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






The models are exactly the issue!

We know that there are female IG soldiers in the fluff, but there are no models!
We know that there are female Primaris Psykers, but there are no models!
We know there is female Farseers and Warlocks, but there are no models!

I like GWs models, there are so many different kits and bits that you can create stunning variety of characters... except if you want to make a female character, then the options are truly limited.

   
Made in nz
Focused Fire Warrior



New Zealand

what about the dark eldar? they seem pretty egalitarian. wyches don't seem too oppressed...

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Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






pax_imperialis wrote:
what about the dark eldar? they seem pretty egalitarian. wyches don't seem too oppressed...


Dark Eldar are certainly the best model range regarding the gender diversity.

   
Made in nz
Focused Fire Warrior



New Zealand

yes they have the best range of women in the, eherm, workplace. I really like the dark eldar, despite them being "wafer thin". there's something so judas priest about them. when i see the model for the archon i just can't help but start singing "TWISTING, THE STRANGLED GRIP WON'T GIVE NO MERCY! FEELING, THOSE TENDONS RIP, TORN UP IN ME!" \m/

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Made in eu
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Hahah

I have to say, though, the old Wyches looked cooler than the new ones. More ... acrobatic rather than the new "brute force" design. Maybe I'm just too entrenched in the "elf" cliché, though.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

Yeah... the Wytch Elves definitely have that mid-80s "metal chick" thing going on. Worse, though, is that it's mid-80s-Euro-metal-chick".... all fawning over Europeans, with their big hair-dos, instead of giving their money, where it belongs, to a decent American artist...

... er, sorry, fell into some Dead Milkmen there.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in eu
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland



Your fault for bringing it up.
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Those models are always good for a laugh!

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in nz
Focused Fire Warrior



New Zealand

i like where this thread is going. lusty 80's euro-metal babes.

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Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

... I need those for my current Fallout: Dark Heresy Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Exterminatus campaign. Like.... seriously.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

I like it because it reminds me of Mad Max and Fist of the North Star.

And honestly, can anything that reminds me of either of those be bad?

Well yes, it can, but it has to really try!

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in eu
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Hey, I said fault, not vault...
The campaign sounds fun - are you running a Fallout game with DH rules, or is that more like Dark Heresy with a FO-themed (Warzone/Deathworld) scenario?

On a sidenote, I actually never noticed how detailed those Escher gang minis look like. Maybe it's just the paintjob, but check out the armour from the first gal. Awesome design.

PS: Mad Max ftw!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 01:46:39


 
   
Made in us
Nigel Stillman





Austin, TX

 Lynata wrote:
Vladsimpaler wrote:So? The Imperial Guard is typically only used as cannon fodder in order to showcase the heroics of Spess Mehrens but I never really hear complaints about all that. But it must be because the Sororitas are female and therefore deserve special treatment right?
You have it the wrong way around. Is it not "special treatment" if they are the faction that suffer more than the others? Even the Guard is credited with more important victories (understandable due to numerical differences) and less massacres/fails (this is where it gets weird). The IG is the underdog - but an underdog that is ultimately meant to pull through. That is what endears them to many, including me. Few people would like the Guard if they'd be "all fail".

Also, you seem to lack a certain understanding of what the role of both the Imperial Guard and the Battle Sisters is within the setting. The latter are not meant as cannon fodder, and thus also should not be treated as such - just like you would not treat Space Marines, their equals, in this manner.

Ever since their introduction, Sisters of Battle have been fairly Pyrrhic in their victories, it's what defines them. "Order of Our Martyred Lady" sound familiar?


Vladsimpaler wrote:Grey Knights are the best of the best and basically irreplaceable. Sororitas are good troops but ultimately replaceable anyway. Also how do you get more pure than in-corruptable? Is it in-corruptable (x2)? This is where the whole argument falls apart to me at any rate.
Everyone is replaceable.

Personally, I never had a problem with that particular incident, by the way. I simply rationalised it as the Grey Knights' incorruptability not being a fully innate ability, but rather something that may require paraphernalia to be used to full effect. Paraphernalia like the "blood of the innocent", the lifeforce of those whose faith and conviction had preserved their purity against taint. And the GKs are supposed to employ Warp Sorcery now, are they not?

Also, the incident goes to show that the Grey Knights, or ultimately the Inquisition as a whole, is uncompromising and does not shy back from slaughtering allied forces if it serves their interest. Makes sense to me.

Interesting about the first part and warp sorcery. I fully agree with the second part however.


Vladsimpaler wrote:Also if 40k is already much more egalitarian towards women, then what's the problem?
Are you actually reading the thread? It has been pointed out a few times by now.
-> missing miniatures and/or SC representing that which already exists in the background
-> once in a while, dropping a few hints in fluff bits like short stories or communiques found throughout the codices


So really it just boils down to wanting a few models? Trust me, if female models were popular (and not just enjoyed by a radical minority), GeeDubs would've had more of them.

 Melissia wrote:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:
You're moving the goalpost.
The goalposts haven't been moved. You're just not paying any attention,

Oh MAN you got me there.
Excuse me for ignoring all of the "BUT MUH RIGHTS" and "B-BUT MISOGYNY" and actually reading the dude's post as it was written.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 02:09:24


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

DH in an FO-like world. Once a Hive world, got infiltrated by Chaos. Liberation Fleet arrives. Seven Imperial Saints (locally considered) arise to defeat Chaos. Chaos causes Hives to nuke one another. Warpstorm breaks out due to having a whole lotta people dying all at once. A thousand years later, Warp-storm is still there, survivors are scratching out a living, shattered remains of normal Imperial Adepti are having a go of it, but are torn by factionalism and in-fighting. One of the Ecclesiarchal factions happens to learn, through their seers, of a way to reincarnate one of the Saints. One of their members is what passes for an Inquisitor on this world... he just needs some Acolytes...

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Holland , Vermont

Hey if it helps anyone , Having served in combat with females in the Army , I can safely say, just imagine the stormtroopers or kasarkins with enclosed helmets are female, since in full gear and kit, the only way you can actually tell a male soldier from a female one at a distance is by their face, (and sometimes not even that)

Otherwise carry on.

If you are interested in my P&M for my Unified Corp Tau check here ----http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/282731.page
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War Field Boss Marshul Grimdariun's Panzuh Korps http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/353354.page
Tau Prototypes Technical readouts and Data sharing (for all Tau players )http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/412232.page 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Massachusetts

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
You're moving the goalpost. All the post asked for was a named female character, no mention of a model.

No, there was no goalpost moving, if you'd been paying any attention to the discussion and read all of my post, it should have been fairly obvious that I meant that should make the model. I actually even meant to type "the" Inquisitor for GK rather than "an" Inquisitor, but it should have been very apparent regardless. The lack of models has been the point of like half the posts. Please actually read before responding.
En Excelsis wrote:

I know I risk sounding "sexist" by today's standards for saying this, but equality of the sexes is an illusion. I would say that equality in general is as well, but that's another discussion for another time.

I say this not to add fuel to a fire, but because the ONLY reason women are perceived the way they are today, is as a result of specific factors that took place in AMERICAN history in fairly recent history. It wasn't a terribly long time ago that women lived VERY different lives than they do now. And it's not because humanity has "evolved" or "progressed" at all... it's because socially and economically it became necessary for women to work in the place of men in post WWII America. This led to many women having jobs that would not otherwise have had, and after a few years, when the men returned to work the women were simply dismissed. This led to a feeling of abuse, which women rallied behind and started a series of movements that eventually resulted in them being given greater social responsibilities and "rights".



You want to know what the real problem with the internet is?

It gives uninformed bigots a place to spread their nonsense.

Where to start with this? First of all, I wouldn't worry about sounding sexist, it seems pretty clear that you are sexist and you even seem to embrace it. Secondly, way to derail a thread that had been focused on a reasonable conversation on the role women play in 40k, and what roles they could play, by introducing your oh-so-enlightened take on the women's rights movement. Since you brought it there, I feel the need to point out the fallacies in your statement.
En Excelsis wrote:
However I am an American and NOT a citizen of any other nations, thusly I am not qualified to give a detailed historical account of their cultural evolution and (out of respect) did not attempt to clump them all together.

Fair enough, at least you admit that you don't know world history, so perhaps you weren't aware that the fight for women's rights has existed for many, many centuries and has been fought across the globe. Unfortunately, clearly have absolutely zero understanding of American history as well, so I'm afraid you're not really qualified to even speak to the American civil rights movement.

The American women's rights movement or "suffrage" movement, is generally accepted to have begun in 1848, with the Seneca Falls Convention, feel free to wiki that, its kind of a big deal. Note that the movement did not start because women suddenly got jobs in WWII and then when it was over they were all like "Wait, I like working, I want to do that some more." It "officially" started about a CENTURY earlier than that, although the earliest case involving women's rights in America occurred in the 1630's with Anne Hutchinson. They didn't "feel abused" they were abused. They had little control over their lives, almost no legal recourse against men (with regards to rapes, divorce, etc), no representation, and no vote. If they could get a job, they'd be paid half of what a man would get, and they often could not legally own property (contracts, deeds). They were second class citizens. Women wanted fair jobs well before there was economic pressure in WWII making them work, because they wanted independence. So I'm sorry, but your "theory" on how women's rights evolved in America is based in absolutely no facts, only in your own prejudice.

Anyways, back to relevant 40k discussions!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/02/28 02:18:59


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Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

So really it just boils down to wanting a few models? Trust me, if female models were popular (and not just enjoyed by a radical minority), GeeDubs would've had more of them.


Mayhaps you should investigate, oh, I dunno, the *rest* of the miniatures world? Female Figs are very, very, *very* popular in other miniatures wargames, not to mention the figs released for standard RPGs, like Pathfinder or Dungeons & Dragons.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
 
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