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I read this over at the B&C and didn't see anything about it here and would like some opinions on this argument,

Topic says it all really.

So if a Heldrake is Zooming with it's base on the table, then the Baleflamer cannot hit the 2nd Level of Ruins? (counting them as Ground Level, First Level, Second Level?)

Page 101: Ruins and Templates

"Template weapons can only hit models under the template on a single level. This can be the same level as the firer, or one level higher or lower. A Jump Model, Jet Pack model, Jetbike or Skimmer that fires a template weapon at a unit in a ruin may target models on any single level of the ruin."

So basically the Heldrake has to Hover in order to become a Skimmer in order to hit the 2nd level off the ground, unless it is zooming over a 1st or 2nd level

Biker or Tanks with Torrents can never hit 2nd floor. Am I inferring all this correctly?

RAW, yes. RAI? Probably not:

A Jump model, Jet Pack model, Jetbike or Skimmer that fires a T emplate weapon at a unit in a ruin may target models on any single level of the ruin.

I would say that Swooping Monstrous Creatures and Flyers should also be on that list. Them not being on that list smells of oversigh; however, I've been wrong in my conclusions in the past so *shrug*

I found an old thread on it and to do so the Heldrake would have to go into Hover to become like a skimmer which sounds like a balancing tradeoff instead of an oversight.

Maybe, but there is a "real-world" sense that motivated the selection of Jet Pack, Jump Pack, and Skimmers on that list that does not make sense when not equally applied to Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. I understand that people will say that the rules are an abstraction, etc... but the spirit of the original rule would seem to extend here and make allowing it to target any level RAI.

If you want to go real world, I would say there is a difference between a dragon flying at super sonic speed and shooting flames into the third floor of a building and a jet pack, jump pack, or skimmer hovering and shooting flames into the third floor of a building.

If the trade off for accurately delivering flames onto a specific level of the floor forces the dragon to hover, I think that takes a bit of the POW from Heldrakes that everyone seems to be crying about.

This DID come up here before, and sparked a lively debate over how Flyers with template weapons should work, but at the time everybody agreed that Torrent is another matter entirely, and follows its own rule (within 12") rather than the "additional ability" of a normal Template weapon.

Consider, for a moment, that the ability to target an adjacent floor is, for a normal template, not a restriction at all, but an increase in its nominal range. There's no reason to think that such an extra ability translates into a restriction that overrides the Torrent rule.

Heldrake doesn't have Hover, its a Flyer, end of it.

But like said Flyers and FMC's where left out by oversight, its not like this would be the first time with GW and their rules...

Please see pg 101 of the CSM codex......

Pyrian wrote:
This DID come up here before, and sparked a lively debate over how Flyers with template weapons should work, but at the time everybody agreed that Torrent is another matter entirely, and follows its own rule (within 12") rather than the "additional ability" of a normal Template weapon.

Consider, for a moment, that the ability to target an adjacent floor is, for a normal template, not a restriction at all, but an increase in its nominal range. There's no reason to think that such an extra ability translates into a restriction that overrides the Torrent rule.

Except the rule for Torrent tells you that after placing the template, you treat it like any other Template weapon. If I treat it like any other Template weapon, only jet packs, jump infantry, jet bikes, and skimmers can hit any level in a ruin.

Torrent ONLY changes the placement of the Template. Nothing in the rule overrides the restriction on what levels of a ruin and what can fire on the upper levels.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Except the rule for Torrent tells you that after placing the template, you treat it like any other Template weapon.

The ruin rule applies before, and to, template placement. Explicitly. So, once you dismount from the Torrent rule and return to normal template rules, the timing of the ruin rule has already passed.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
If I treat it like any other Template weapon, only jet packs, jump infantry, jet bikes, and skimmers can hit any level in a ruin.

You treat is like any other template weapon after placing it, and you're citing a rule that happens before and during placement.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Torrent ONLY changes the placement of the Template.

Which happens to be the subject under discussion.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Nothing in the rule overrides the restriction on what levels of a ruin and what can fire on the upper levels.

Well, it's a direct conflict between two modifying rules, both of which modify the same underlying rule. They cannot both be correct, so one has to override the other. There are excellent reasons to read the Torrent rule as overriding the ruin additional range rule, instead of vice-versa, not least of which is the exact timing issue you brought up yourself.

So what your saying is a heldrake cannot hit a group of models in the middle of the battlefield not in terrain seeing as it is ground level

Ub3rb3n wrote:
So what your saying is a heldrake cannot hit a group of models in the middle of the battlefield not in terrain seeing as it is ground level

You seem to have misinterpreted. The quote is thus:

"A Jump Model, Jet Pack model, Jetbike or Skimmer that fires a template weapon at a unit in a ruin may target models on any single level of the ruin."

What they're saying is that since Flyers are not included on this list as an exception to how template weapons work, they cannot target any level they choose and are therefore bound by the normal rules, so let's look at the normal rules:

"Template weapons can only hit models under the template on a single level. This can be the same level as the firer, or one level higher or lower"

So what 'level' is the Heldrake firing from? If we're always assuming that the Heldrake is firing from one level above the target terrain, ruin or building (a fair assumption since it cannot hover) then based on RAW it would only be able to hit units on the top floor of the ruin which is one level below the level it's on. Any unit on lower floors or on the ground within the ruin could not be targeted.

So regarding your quote, RAW puts open terrain one level below the Heldrake, meaning it can indeed fire upon units out in the open.

Seems like it needs an FAQ to me.

How we play it: HD player chooses which level.

Makes the most sense to me, its a complete black hole in the rules and RAI makes sense they should be included in this statement.

If I treat it like any other Template weapon, only jet packs, jump infantry, jet bikes, and skimmers can hit any level in a ruin.

"a fair assumption since it cannot hover"

Yes, yes it can. it has Hover.

The number of people who seem to think it cannot is amazing

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"a fair assumption since it cannot hover"

Yes, yes it can. it has Hover.

The number of people who seem to think it cannot is amazing

QFT

however in the world of utterly pointless rules the Heldrake having hover is a good candidate , who would actually bother to hover it when it can shoot all round after the FAQ? The general assumption that it does not probably extends from the fact that nobody uses it for obvious reasons

on topic:

we have a rather large 'grey area' here the- RAW work up to a point but as per usual they fall over in that someone forgot to mention flyers in the mix, even then they still fail.

Of course the common sense way to do it is that it can target all levels regardless, unless we want to cause the argument of 'its flying ffs!!'

in short RAW, no it cannot (unless in hover mode...), however how most people play it is as i describe above

just my humble opinion

For when you need to flame a unit back along your flight path. It happens.