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You might try swapping armies for a couple of games with one or more of your friends who have those other armies. It definitely gives a different perspective to be on the other side of the table.

Can't assault on the turn they come into play with a storm raven.

Land raider crusader isn't bad, can unload 15 of them + a chaplain. Only thing is the ride costs the same as 12 more death company.

Most brutal blunt force deathstar in 6th ed. Block of 30 DC on foot with a reclusiarch and DA allied Azreal inside the squad giving all of them a 4++ invulnerable.

 Mannahnin wrote:
You might try swapping armies for a couple of games with one or more of your friends who have those other armies. It definitely gives a different perspective to be on the other side of the table.

I have borrowed my friend's space wolf/IG a few times, and my other friend's Tau. The space wolf/IG thing is definitely better than anything BA can field. I didn't even use drop pods. I used mechanized wolves and IG fliers. I didn't play enough with the Tau to really form an opinion that is strong. They don't seem worse than BA though.

Martel732 wrote:
Against them. I only own BA. Was gonna get a few smurf allies, but now I'm not sure.

Out of curiosity, do you ever field your BA as C:SM or SW? I see no real reason not to (other than limitations you're imposing on yourself out of love for the fluff). In the end it's just the same models with different colour armour.

I honestly don't own that many tactical marines anymore. I was gonna have to get another squad and paint them blue for smurf allies.

Plus, for the SW to be really functional in my meta as a TAC, I'd have to buy two Vendettas and IG, which I can't do right now.

Martel732 wrote:
I honestly don't own that many tactical marines anymore. I was gonna have to get another squad and paint them blue for smurf allies.

Plus, for the SW to be really functional in my meta as a TAC, I'd have to buy two Vendettas and IG, which I can't do right now.

Fair enough, although GHs can be modelled as BP and CCW thanks to their wargear. I disagree that SW need IG allies. They're useful, but not mandatory in a flier heavy meta. Although to get around it you generally need drop pods which aren't exactly cheap either (although at least they could still be used by BA).

Maybe that's true. I haven't thought about how SW counter Vendetta spam that hard. I just know that I can't often beat SW, SW /wIG, or just IG with the BA.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I can't stand most videogames, so I have more motivation to work on my analog armies.

I wouldn't say SW make better TAC lists. They have better antiinfantry in their Troops, but they don't have any flyers of their own. The two armies have different strengths; but they've both got access to allies too.

SW really do do TAC very well, since we have cheap, versatile troops, and IG really are the perfect allies for us.

 Mannahnin wrote:
You might try swapping armies for a couple of games with one or more of your friends who have those other armies. It definitely gives a different perspective to be on the other side of the table.

Amen to that. I'm convinced that IG are the best army in the game right now, but since starting them and losing my last couple games, they do have some more finesse than "1. Point. 2. Shoot.", especially when trying to work in orders.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Can't assault on the turn they come into play with a storm raven.

Land raider crusader isn't bad, can unload 15 of them + a chaplain. Only thing is the ride costs the same as 12 more death company.

Most brutal blunt force deathstar in 6th ed. Block of 30 DC on foot with a reclusiarch and DA allied Azreal inside the squad giving all of them a 4++ invulnerable.

...is that ability not restricted to DA units only?

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe that's true. I haven't thought about how SW counter Vendetta spam that hard.

It ignores it. Vendettas aren't very manoeuvrable, and with a foot list, especially in rhinos if you're old school or drop pods Vendettas are pretty much irrelevant. When your opponent has ~400pts tied up in fliers which can rarely even hit your units, let alone make huge dents in them, it becomes a rather one-sided game.
Losing outflank really hurt the Vendetta's ability to get around a drop pod in your face list. They pretty much have to fly off every other turn, making them horribly inefficient.

I've been running mine as allies for my Smurfs. Libby goes with my Devs and run the DC in a rhino as a troop choice. I run them cheap and use them as a counter-charge unit in my side of the board. Usually only in the box for deployment or to block LOS. If your coming into my backfield, then your taking a DC charge after getting blasted.

I prefer the "no cover" save power on the devs. Makes Long Fangs cry.

DC in a drop pod with an Axe or two are a pretty decent distraction. But as has been mentioned they are a trap unit. They get pricey fast. I also wouldn't field them in a SR as losing them to a lucky quadgun, vendetta, night scythe or opposing SR can be brutal. Drop pod seems best due to its cheap cost and great mobility.

The problem is, then you're paying 250-300 points for a distraction unit. When I look at what else that many points could have bought, I'm coming to see that DC are too risky an option.

250-300 isn't just a distraction. 250pts of DC in a pod is a full ten man squad with a power axe. That's reasonably beefy and should be able to destroy at least one important (scoring or key fire support) enemy unit, and potentially survive long enough to contest an objective.

 Mannahnin wrote:
250-300 isn't just a distraction. 250pts of DC in a pod is a full ten man squad with a power axe. That's reasonably beefy and should be able to destroy at least one important (scoring or key fire support) enemy unit, and potentially survive long enough to contest an objective.

And if all else fails it'll still be something the enemy can't afford to have running around his backfield.

LValx wrote:
DC in a drop pod with an Axe or two are a pretty decent distraction.

It's mostly a distraction because it doesnt score. I'd use it to try to fold a flank. 2 pods on turn 1 with dc and sternguard in them can be effective. The problem is that most armies can blast 20 fnp marines off the table, at least most of the lists I conjure up and many of the ones I see at events now.

Those two units are going to be around 1/3 of your list. If you're willing to dedicate that much of your force in non-scoring, alpha strike, high variance infantry, I guess you should go for it.

I think you need to spend so many points on our troops that BA armies aren't left with a ton of space left over. I prefer to spend my remaining points, mainly, on AV13 units. Baals, Furiosos, fast Preds, all are in a good spot in modern 40K I think.

Because they are hard to deliver into combat, DC are risky. Yes, they will hack to pieces almost anything they get to rapid fire and then charge in to, but that upside is far from guaranteed. They are too high variance for what they offer.

I think you will find more good players taking low-variance units at the price of a bit of raw power (autocannons over missile launchers are a prime example). Mitigating the potential for bad charge rolls, or below average armor/FNP rolls, is going to be better more often. So, yeah, DC are going to kill more than a tac squad, but a tac squad or RAS squad are more utile and a better use of our limited resources.

I don't think Pods or Storm Ravens are all that hard of ways to get DC into combat. Your opponent does get at least one turn to shoot at you, but they're pretty durable for the points.

As long as it can contest an enemy objective, and do damage, IMO, it's not just a distraction. Obviously you also want scoring units in the army, but you can still get 4+ of those fairly inexpensively with tacs, scouts, allies, and possibly assault marines. Low cost high durability (for the points) scoring is not hard to get; stuff which can get across the field to do damage to the enemy, force them into defensive maneuvering rather than being able to focus on your scorers, and ideally with the ability and take away their objectives, is still a needed and complimentary role, and one that DC can fill.

Stormravens suck as transports. Stormravnes are AV 12 HP 3.That's NOT durable. A Stormraven full of DC is worth shooting everything at and that will bring it down.

Sure, okay. AV12 flyers aren't durable. Maybe your area is drowning in anti-flyer firepower. In that case, fly 36" onto the table and dump the DC out the back immediately. Or just use a drop pod.

tomjoad wrote:Those two units are going to be around 1/3 of your list. If you're willing to dedicate that much of your force in non-scoring, alpha strike, high variance infantry, I guess you should go for it.

I think you need to spend so many points on our troops that BA armies aren't left with a ton of space left over. I prefer to spend my remaining points, mainly, on AV13 units. Baals, Furiosos, fast Preds, all are in a good spot in modern 40K I think.

Because they are hard to deliver into combat, DC are risky. Yes, they will hack to pieces almost anything they get to rapid fire and then charge in to, but that upside is far from guaranteed. They are too high variance for what they offer.

I think you will find more good players taking low-variance units at the price of a bit of raw power (autocannons over missile launchers are a prime example). Mitigating the potential for bad charge rolls, or below average armor/FNP rolls, is going to be better more often. So, yeah, DC are going to kill more than a tac squad, but a tac squad or RAS squad are more utile and a better use of our limited resources.

You need target saturation. How about Mephiston coming at you in a raven, Death co drop podding down and some TH/SS termies advancing in a land raider.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
You need target saturation. How about Mephiston coming at you in a raven, Death co drop podding down and some TH/SS termies advancing in a land raider.

You forgot a Furioso and a unit of Sanguinary Guard

reps0l wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
You need target saturation. How about Mephiston coming at you in a raven, Death co drop podding down and some TH/SS termies advancing in a land raider.

You forgot a Furioso and a unit of Sanguinary Guard

Ok so put th furioso into another pod and Sanguinary guard come with built in transport.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
You need target saturation. How about Mephiston coming at you in a raven, Death co drop podding down and some TH/SS termies advancing in a land raider.

If you want to spend over 1300 points without any scoring units, even in a 2000 point game, I'd be happy to face that. It's plenty killy, but yeah, that is just not scary as far as actually *winning* a game of 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Including a podded Fuioso and a unit of Sanguinary Guard puts you over 1700, and that's still only one troops choice that can't score. Are you two just trolling now?

There's no need to accuse people of trolling. However, this is how easily Codex: BA becomes Codex: Trap. It's frustrating because there is so much in the BA codex should be cool, but falls short or can't fulfill the basic requirements of the game.

The original thought was legit. Expensive, but the idea is there.

The Furioso and SG back and forth was most definitely trolling.

I think its less than 1700 points, I wasnt trolling. If i need more troops I can pack in some IG easily. I think you need to chill.

I added it up, and, depending on how you outfit the DC, Sang Guard, and how many TH/SS termies you bring, it's going to be in the ballpark of 1600 at a minimum (but the DC and terminators won't be very effective unless you spend 100-200 more). Plus, at least 75 for a second troops choice doesn't leave much for IG allies.

Since you, apparently, didn't actually calculate how much all that stuff costs, you must not have known how much of a list all those things would take up. That's understandable. Now you do know, and I hope you can now see the point that others have been trying to make about some of the cooler units being a huge point sink for the Blood Angels.

Edit: reps0l, I can definitely appreciate some good-natured trolling Thank you.

Tomjoad - The point of this thread was to discuss implementation of DC. I provided I few other examples of units that would take that pressure off the DC dropping down. I never mentioned anything about the costs of these units. I think you have your knickers in a twist. Go take your complaints elsewhere if you have nothing of merit to add.

Your suggestion is that to make one expensive unit more survivable, we should add more expensive units to a list., which I am pointing out is not a feasible or reasonable option at non-Apoc points levels. If you think having zero scoring units in 1600-1800 points of you list is productive, then we are at an impasse and (clearly) nether of us can gain from communicating with one another.

Let us be civil, though. I will ask you: Do you genuinely believe that the basic list you proposed above is viable to win a game, or just as a method of getting DC into contact as a means unto itself?