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i never stated this was a complete list or that it was tournament worthy, or that it was in any way complete. You assumed all those points. I was simple making the point that there are ways and other units that can be added to provide pressure. Your crying about a lack of scoring units on a theoretical list that was not intended to be be complete. You could easily fit two full scout squads into that list, giving your up to 4 scoring units. Again I am not stating this is a complete list, as i said above I am just providing examples.

Your claim that adding second or third expensive units is not feasible is ludicrous. By that assumption we cannot include any expensive unit as having only one will present a large target and by your belief having too is a waste. So that limits you to taking what? scouts ? tac marines ? i suggest you go play Guard or the new DA dex if you want cheap units.

BA have a current problem of being overpriced and underwhelming. There is serious debate currently as to the best way to play the dex and that a take all comers list is probably the hardest to pull off.

As to you last question: I am giving examples of getting DC into postition / giving them more suvivability: I have found from experience that having another unit in your opponents face that they have to address is critical. If you drop the DC turn one in a pod, you need to have something coming in or on the table that will make your opponent split focus. Examples such as deep striking terminators, LR with choppy units inside, Fragnoughts out of pod, veterans out of pod. Yes, some of these add up in points, but the idea is that you build a balanced list that can present multiple targets and provides enough firepower.

If you scroll up you will see the link i provided that actually details the list that i had been playing.

It consisted of Terminator Librarian
Shooting termie squad (10)
1 tac squad all plasma
2 x 5 man assault squads
Sanguinary guard
1 x 10 man assault squad
aegis with quad gun
2 priests
2 x 5 man dev squad

I made this list as a TAC and played it with decent effect in a local tournie. In this case the deep striking terminators provided the secondary distraction for my drop pod DC. Not having another turn one unit to put pressure on hurt my DC, however in not a single game did i loose both dev squads or the tac squad, why ? because people where shooting at the immediate threat, the DC that came out of their pod all angry and ready to wreck face.

Look, we all know about the problems the BA have now. Everyone is going to have their own version of how to get around these problems. Some people's solution involves ramming DC into opposing armies.

I think we have boiled this down to two acceptable methods: drop pod and land raider, because 35 pt jump marines is kinda nuts. Oh, yeah Stormraven. 3 methods. I maintain the Stormraven should never be used as a transport, due to the splattering of the occupants if it crashes. If I were forced at gunpoint, I would use TH/SS terminators, not DC, because I at least get to keep 2/3 of them.

I agree with Martel, the only way to deliver DC are by LR or POD. Pod being much cheaper, but with the loss of assault. LR - has assault ramp, expensive, could get wrecked before it gets to where it needs to be. I am really beggining to think that BA need IG allies to shore up some of the weak points of our list. We could take LRBT's to provide more AV 14 saturation to take the heat of the LR. We can take cheap scoring units, something we can all agree that we lack. oh yeah and Vendettas. I still think BA have some fluffy cool units that do have utility on their own, we just lack the ability to build a synergistic list out of our dex on its own

Agreement! I need to get an IG detachment up and running, because, I 100% agree with that sentiment for competitive play. I'm more interested in Earthshaker artillery than LRBTs, but the bodies are really the key.

Not to derail the thread, but I have also started to move from LRBTs to artillery. I think 2 Basilisks and 2 Collusi and 2 Vanquishers (one with Pask) and then 3 vendettas are going to be the backbone of m firepower.

BA's main strength left to it is mobility. something IG lack. There is great potential for synergistic lists.

DC can be so good under the right circumstances, its just that BA can never field enough bodies, and when we give up bodies that aren't even a scoring unit....thats a problem.

Not enough bodies = not enough saturation = DC catch all the fire until they are dead or crippled. This makes the circumstance you describe quite rare.

With allies we can solve our codexes weaknesses. We can rebuild it, make it stronger. We can include... Guard.

Yeah, I'm having flashbacks to 2nd where I allied with guard.

Everyone keeps talking about how few bodies BA are running and how crippled their codex is because of it (well...everyone = a couple loud voices who happen to be repeating it over and over again on any BA centric thread). Just wondering...how many bodies are peeps actually running in their current BA lists?

If I remember correctly, the list I'm painting towards has 53 models in it, 3 of which ara drop pods and 1 other is a furioso dreadnought. The other 48 are mobile and have the potential to rock FnP...

For me, I have enough bodies like you. The bigger issue is the lesser amount of units. Nothing good comes of combat squadding a 10-man Assault squad, it really needs to stay together.

So if you are fighting a bunch of combat squadded Tac marines or even Ravenwing with their attack bikes, you can only assault so many units a turn.

But that is just part of the challenge for me and BA. I agree with you, Void, need more talk about how to make things work and less negativity. BA is still far from the bottom of the barrel and the complaints are unnecessary.

I can field a similar about of marine bodies, but have very limited shooting. Given the HTH nerfs we took, I have had lots of problems with that setup.

This has been almost discussed to death. For this edition, the BA are simply going to be one of the weaker lists. I hope you do like a challenge, because an argument can be made that the BA *are* the bottom right now. Go through each codex and ask yourself if the BA are *really* better than each one. I used to say BA are better than Sisters and BT, but I'm not ever sure about that anymore.

I think anyone who has read any recent BA threads knows your thoughts, Martel.

The BA codex was evidently priced and structured for these elite type units to be sprinkled into the hard hitting HTH ASM troops. If they even gave it that much thought. Now that the HTH ASM troops have taken nerfs from multiple rule changes in 6th, things are just not going to add up. How could they?

Another problem at hand is also a function of elite durability. When the BA pay extra for a vehicle or unit, it is almost never for extra durability. It's for some fluffy something that GW thinks is awesome. This does not help at all in the meta of taking plasma to the face, as calm and competent opponents will shoot what they can, and then sacrifice as necessary to set up these expensive units for an unpleasant turn-after-charge.

If I owned another army, I would quit using the BA. Unfortunately, much of my stuff is pre-magnetization and so I really can't even field a "counts as" army without buying more stuff. This is beginning to remind me of Necron players or DA players "trying to make it work" in 5th. Every edition has the lists that get kicked around. This is the BA's turn. It seems that even editions are not good for us. Here's hoping for 7th!

Yes we know.

I own 7 armies and the BA are still my favorite to play. I like a challenge. I also have highly competative guard units available so I look at the BA issue as something that can be solved easily by taking some guard units. This in turn makes me correlate this idea to the utility of an easy setting in a video game. Sure a game might be too hard to play on the hardest setting, but I would rather slowly adjust the difficulty level that I find a sweet spot where the game is still challenging but also fun.

My old BA list had 53 bodies in it also. My new one is going to be armor focused with a minimum number of scoring units.

I was planning to ally with smurf marines to save $$, but I think the IG is a much better addition to the BA.

Martel732 wrote:
I can field a similar about of marine bodies, but have very limited shooting. Given the HTH nerfs we took, I have had lots of problems with that setup.

This has been almost discussed to death. For this edition, the BA are simply going to be one of the weaker lists. I hope you do like a challenge, because an argument can be made that the BA *are* the bottom right now. Go through each codex and ask yourself if the BA are *really* better than each one. I used to say BA are better than Sisters and BT, but I'm not ever sure about that anymore.

At least BA still have Baal Preds and psychic support. That's better than anything BT and Sisters have access to. Stormravens are also not in Codex: SoB, which is another disadvantage for them.

Assuming the Stormraven is actually an advantage. Where I play, you are just surrendering points to Vendetta spam half the time. It sucks because for TAC lists, I need it as a hedge against helldrakes. It's middle child syndrome; it can beat the helldrakes, but just fails against Vendettas on a point for point basis.

I still argue that BA are probably better off than Sisters and BT. Many people put the BA above Tau and Eldar, and I just can't do that. Especially the Eldar. I'm certain this will be doubly true after their respective codicies drop.

BA may have psychic support, but our characters are laughably bad in HTH. If I'm not mistaken, BT has legit HTH threats in their HQ slots.

The Sisters are so old, and everything is in metal. It seems rather hollow to be more effective than the Sisters of Battle.

Martel732 wrote:

BA may have psychic support, but our characters are laughably bad in HTH. If I'm not mistaken, BT has legit HTH threats in their HQ slots.

Yes, a Marshal/Chaplain with Adamantine Mantle, Thunder Hammer and 2+ can kick some butt, until it runs into anyone who has a way of causing Instant Death other than Tx2 or simply runs into any other dedicated beatstick worth it's salt. Of the "playable" beatstick HQs, ours are the weakest. The fact that Adamantine Mantle is 0-1 also means that we have ONE legit HTH pseudo-thread in an HQ slot, which isn't even Eternal Warrior. Our troops choices are rubbish and our support synergy consists of having Chaplains. That's it.

Let's not take the thread further off-topic though, we can keep going in PMs if you want.

No, no. It's fine. I didn't honestly know the details of BT. Yes, it sounds like the BA are still better off than the BT. It sounds like we are both stuck with bad HQ HTH choices.

Truthfully, I'm waiting the 2-3 years it's going to take to make the DC more viable -- because right now I find it impossible to justify them in any of my lists. I think you're right, that in the future they'll be a larger staple, but until we get a new codex or have something adjusted in the faq it's impossible to justify them (kind of how SG were in 5th).

I look at the 20pt difference between 5 vanilla DC, and 4 Plague marines with a plague champion -- and it's night and day.

To me, there's a chasm between the DC's fluff, and their practicality. Yes, they got far better in 6th because of the change to rage -- but overall I just don't see how they're worth it to a unit.

You simply cant afford to make them jump, but if there's a single unit in the entire BA fluff that better embodies 'hammer of wrath', I don't know what it is.

In my experience, a 5 man AS with 1x Melta and a sarge with PF is vastly more effective than a small DC. I understand the allure of a psychological element -- but I think it's just unwanted attention.

Auswin wrote:

I understand the allure of a psychological element -- but I think it's just unwanted attention.

There is no psychological element to the DC. Just more marines to kill. Except when I kill these ones, I'm eating through more points than any of the others.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Auswin wrote:

I understand the allure of a psychological element -- but I think it's just unwanted attention.

There is no psychological element to the DC. Just more marines to kill. Except when I kill these ones, I'm eating through more points than any of the others.

This.

Death co should come with free jump packs or a discounted transport. I also miss the 2nd Ed rule where they had 1 wound +1. Basically they were so amped up that they had 2 wounds during the game. If they took only one wound they would count as dead after the game for victory conditions.

26 points or so for DC with a free jump pack, we could talk. But 35? What are they smoking over at GW? I miss using these guys, too.

I am sure that in the next codex the DC will be worse or the same (they aren't optimal choices, but they aren't terrible and it seems as if they sell pretty well). I'd guess cheaper jump packs but without relentless and rage, or something like that.

But, I'm sure GW will try to make Sanguinary Guard into a playable unit in the next book to make up for it. Maybe 2+/5++ with better weapons and an boost to either I or A.

I think the SG is more playable than the DC right now. They come with more standard gear for the price. 40 points for artificer armor, power weapon, and jump pack. That's not too terrible. Their primary issues are their inability to suck up plasma fire, inability to take on teqs, and their lack of efficacy vs hordes.

I too had dreams of a DC victory..... I was rudely awakened by by the sound of IG battle cannons.... The only real reason anyone takes DC is to have access to the DC dred in hopes you can get it into CC...

I just got my brother started on his BA army (He still hasn't built it though), and looking through the codex, all the vehicles are fast vehicles. Why not use them as a screen (or in the case of vindicators a mobile gunline) for a squad of jump pack equip DC? Plow straight into the enemies lines with 12" movement shooting S10 ap2 Large Blasts, then mopping it all up with a DC assault? Keep a tac squad or two trailing behind to capture objectives, and voila! The only real problem with this list is the lack of AA, but the meta doesn't really use flyers except for our nid players with their 1 or 2 flyrants.