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Well, playing both large (apocalypse) and small (1500 or less) games of 40K 6th against Chaos SM and Orks, I have found the DC to be game winners.

As for all the "everything in his army shooting at one squad" argument from, for example, Martel, obviously people are not good at using terrain to their advantage.

BA have the mobility to bounce out from behind LOS blocking terrain, hit the smack out of someone, and before we go on about overwatch, to be honest tis not really that effective.

Denying objectives can be just as effective as holding them in the right circumstances.

Not to mention the expression on your opponents face when you disordered charge two of his scoring units and still get 3 WS5 attacks per model........

Martel732 wrote:
I think the SG is more playable than the DC right now. They come with more standard gear for the price. 40 points for artificer armor, power weapon, and jump pack. That's not too terrible. Their primary issues are their inability to suck up plasma fire, inability to take on teqs, and their lack of efficacy vs hordes.

I absolutely agree with this. If I'd make a single change to them it would be to make them T5. I wouldn't give them a 5++, because then they just become jump terminators, and I don't think that makes them unique enough. However, the bump to toughness would justify the point cost better. Maybe a one point boost to initiative also, but this could be a stretch. After all, these are supposed to be the baddest vets the BA have.

As for dealing with hordes, I've found death masks to be life saving against greenskins, but I think the rule on them should make the ld check at -1. Especially with how leadership seems to get bumped up more and more.

Almost every list I've made in 6th includes the SG, and thus far they've made their points back in almost every game (except when I play the IG or Tau).

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Not to mention the expression on your opponents face when you disordered charge two of his scoring units and still get 3 WS5 attacks per model........

Hm, I need to try this. You are right 3 attacks with WS5 and Furious Charge should be enough.

I know all about the terrain argument. You can't count on terrain in any given match up. Terrain density is random, as are the pieces available to put on the board. Sometimes you will get fantastically lucky and have awesome terrain. Other times, it's going to be like the Russian steppes.

It's also not just a game of "getting DC to a target". Good players will sacrifice a chump unit to them and the line up a kill zone after the DC exterminate the chump unit in a single turn. I know that's what I do to them. It's even better when you can force them to assault a rhino or razorback, since they don't have the range weapons to crack them. For lists like SW and CSM, the DC are the only HTH unit they care about, unless SG are on the board. They will find a way to eliminate them if the players are any good.

Who lets two of their scoring units within disordered charge range of DC? It's not like the game doesn't last 5 turns or so. There is plenty of time to claim objectives after crippling your foe.

I like SG, but I see them more useful as a shooty unit. I usually run one group with swords, one fist and four plasma pistols and then a secondary group with axes, one fist and 4 infernus pistols.

I think DC are still quite fun to use, and I think they do tend to intimidate your foe (even if it is slightly unjustified).

I'm still painting my up and will continue to run them, but they do usually under-perform for the premium points cost.

I think the best use for them in 10 man in a drop pod, also dropping with a Fragnaught, but then you need 3 drops pods in your army which in itself if over 100pts.

I've started another thread about BA and IG allies as the when the topic came up earlier in this thread it really peaked my interest as I've been considering IG as an Ally for a while, but don't really know what direction to go, so a fuller discussion about that would be useful, here's a link.

Linky:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/512264.page#5360641

D

(P.S sorry for the thread jacking)

Martel, you can't "force" the DC to attack anything, as the days of them being led around by the nose are over thanks to the latest rage rule, and with JP, you can just blow past a chump unit to get to the things you want to kill.

It seems to me that you don't know how to use them properly.

As for an opponent being poor because of having two scoring units close enough together to be suffering a disordered charge on both, come on, you are being as bit disingenuous there, for example when facing CSM where special characters make most of their army scoring.

So far I have not had any problems using them very effectively against Chaos SM and Orks in 6th.

In 5th, just keep them in a big metal box or drop pod until required, shake up and release.....

BTW, I have been playing since 1991.

Aleph-Sama wrote:
Why not use them as a screen (or in the case of vindicators a mobile gunline) for a squad of jump pack equip DC? ... mopping it all up with a DC assault?

The AV:13 wall is a common BA tactic. It works very well. BA are decent mech army.

However, 35pts per model to "mop up"? Don't you see the flaw in that, when for 18pts per model you can do the same thing?

Yes, DC are definitely not "mop up" troops. They are smash high value target troops.

Working on the AV13 wall at the moment, Baal preds and standard dakka preds, not to mention my old favorite, the vindi