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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 01:25:05
Subject: 'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
Ontario
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Not to mention that if Warren Buffet spends all the money in his wallet on ice cream which he then left in the sun instead of having it stolen his wallet is magically refilled by forcibly removing money from people who didn't leave all of their possessions in meltable form outside on a hot summer day.
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DCDA:90-S++G+++MB++I+Pw40k98-D+++A+++/areWD007R++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 03:07:39
Subject: 'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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Imperial Admiral
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azazel the cat wrote:And the part that you seem to have trouble addressing is that if Warren Buffet's wallet gets stolen, and he screams "My wallet has been stolen!", the person standing closest to him does not get punished without due process and the burden of proof resting on the prosecution.
I don't have any trouble addressing that, actually, because it's a wildly specious point. Due process exists in the current system, too.
Unless you're claiming that a private company choosing to throttle your internet access is somehow a violation of your right to due process, in which case I'm going to have to go sadly shake my head about the state of modern entitled youth once again.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 03:21:48
Subject: 'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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Hallowed Canoness
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Seaward wrote: azazel the cat wrote:And the part that you seem to have trouble addressing is that if Warren Buffet's wallet gets stolen, and he screams "My wallet has been stolen!", the person standing closest to him does not get punished without due process and the burden of proof resting on the prosecution.
I don't have any trouble addressing that, actually, because it's a wildly specious point. Due process exists in the current system, too.
Unless you're claiming that a private company choosing to throttle your internet access is somehow a violation of your right to due process, in which case I'm going to have to go sadly shake my head about the state of modern entitled youth once again.
How is it not? I'm being accused of a crime and am being punished for it, albeit by a private entity and there is indeed an appeals process, but I have to pay for that process, while the RIAA can accuse me of whatever it pleases, false or not there's no compensation to my lost time, $35 or productivity I have to do proving my innocence. We've discussed in this thread the MANY ways that false accusations or charges could end up being filed under this system.
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I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 03:32:54
Subject: 'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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Imperial Admiral
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KalashnikovMarine wrote:How is it not? I'm being accused of a crime and am being punished for it, albeit by a private entity and there is indeed an appeals process, but I have to pay for that process, while the RIAA can accuse me of whatever it pleases, false or not there's no compensation to my lost time, $35 or productivity I have to do proving my innocence. We've discussed in this thread the MANY ways that false accusations or charges could end up being filed under this system.
Again, you have no right to internet access, and you signed a contract saying it could be terminated at any time. It takes getting accused of the same crime six times before your access is shut off. You're probably guilty. Guilty or not, though, if you were actually charged with anything, you'd get all the due process in the world.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 03:33:23
Subject: Re:'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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Mysterious Techpriest
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Those perfectly illuminate the backwards, disconnected beliefs that are responsible for obscenities like the DMCA and this new affront where unsubstantiated claims from unreliable, duplicitous sources are enough to cut someone off from what is unarguably the most important tool extant in this day and age.
Just look at that rambling mess of vitriol and tell me that guy has a clue what he's talking about. It's just flames and gross misconceptions all the way down.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 03:33:34
Subject: Re:'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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Imperial Admiral
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Ratbarf wrote:You implied it was illegal because it was immoral, then you claimed that the reason it was immoral was because it was illegal.
I may have that backwards, circular arguments always screw with me when I try and put them in order.
No. It's illegal because it's immoral. It's immoral because it's immoral. Automatically Appended Next Post: Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Those perfectly illuminate the backwards, disconnected beliefs that are responsible for obscenities like the DMCA and this new affront where unsubstantiated claims from unreliable, duplicitous sources are enough to cut someone off from what is unarguably the most important tool extant in this day and age.
Just look at that rambling mess of vitriol and tell me that guy has a clue what he's talking about. It's just flames and gross misconceptions all the way down.
I believe your inability to provide even the hint of evidence supporting any of your wildly specious arguments has left you with a bit of a credibility gap on this issue, dude. Speaking of unsubstantiated, unreliable, duplicitous claims.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/05 03:35:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 03:40:43
Subject: 'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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Hallowed Canoness
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Interestingly the UN has recognized a human right regarding internet access. I remember I myself was schooled on that.
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I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 03:55:49
Subject: Re:'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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Mysterious Techpriest
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Seaward wrote:I believe your inability to provide even the hint of evidence supporting any of your wildly specious arguments has left you with a bit of a credibility gap on this issue, dude. Speaking of unsubstantiated, unreliable, duplicitous claims.
And your arguments on the matter have been nothing but strawmen, ad hominem attacks, and constant misdirection when confronted with something you couldn't answer.
What exactly do you want for evidence that piracy doesn't preclude purchase? Arguing against that is like saying a glass of tapwater precludes buying some top-shelf ale.
That ignoring a product is worse than pirating it? That's just basic reasoning; if you ignore something it's objectively a lost sale, while if it's pirated it's potentially a future sale, or word-of-mouth advertising.
That the core of anti-pirate beliefs are rooted in ignorance of the situation and entitled indignation that someone's daring to usurp their absolute authority? Look at the beliefs of those entering the industries' who have seen the issue from the consumers' side, who are acquainted and comfortable with the internet instead of just blindly lashing out at this newfangled technology (recall that industry lobbyists referred to VCRs as "the boston strangler" in court, and try to tell me these people have any credibility whatsoever).
I also directed you to the Ars Technica archives; I'd provide links, but google doesn't work so well on this wretched smartphone and its horrible browser.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 05:30:03
Subject: Re:'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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Imperial Admiral
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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:And your arguments on the matter have been nothing but strawmen, ad hominem attacks, and constant misdirection when confronted with something you couldn't answer.
What exactly do you want for evidence that piracy doesn't preclude purchase? Arguing against that is like saying a glass of tapwater precludes buying some top-shelf ale.
You could start by discrediting any one of the twenty-six studies mentioned earlier that show it does. If you want to start reading them, most can be found in the Journal of Law and Economics.
That ignoring a product is worse than pirating it? That's just basic reasoning; if you ignore something it's objectively a lost sale, while if it's pirated it's potentially a future sale, or word-of-mouth advertising.
You've said this repeatedly, yet there's no evidence out there that agrees with you. Essentially, you're just pulling stuff out of your ass to justify your belief that it's okay to refuse to pay someone for their work simply because you believe you're entitled to it for free.
That's the bottom line. You have zero supporting evidence for any of your positions, yet continue to insist the other side - which has plenty - has no idea what it's talking about. You're welcome to keep rambling on without anything to back up your opinion, but until you can actually point to anything concrete, this discussion's over.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 05:59:42
Subject: 'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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This is simple stuff, respectfully.
1.) You're not being accused of a crime, and no one involved has legal standing to prosecute you for such. It's a terms of service violation.
2.) You have no right to "due process" when dealing with a private, commercial entity with whom both of you have willingly and freely entered into a private contract. You have the right to walk away if you don't like it, and they have the right to do whatever they want with their service, all other laws being observed (ie, no wiretapping you, etc etc).
Lets put this a different way.
You go to a buffet. The buffet has a rule that says you cannot bring your plate up for a second go, you must get a fresh plate.
When you go up, you bring your old plate (or not, it doesn't matter). One of the waiters says hey buddy, you can't bring up your old plate, you have to get a new one. You say (ok) or (I didn't bring up my old plate!) - either one, it doesn't matter.
The exact same situation happens again. The manager comes out and says you have to leave now. It doesn't matter for the purposes of this analogy if you did, or did not, bring up a fresh plate. What I'm getting at is, do you recognize that:
A.) You have no legal right to have the district manager, or the kitchen staff, or even some impartial body, weigh in on your case, so long as there was no systemic discrimination?
B.) He can ask you to leave at any time for a good reason or really no reason, provided he gives you back your money for the portion of the meal yet uneaten?
It's point A that's the important one.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:Interestingly the UN has recognized a human right regarding internet access. I remember I myself was schooled on that.
ITT, conservatives republicans libertarians decide the UN should guide US legal policy. Truly, their consistent respect for the organization is beacon of consistency that guides us all.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/05 06:06:53
lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 06:14:01
Subject: Re:'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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Mysterious Techpriest
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Seaward wrote:Sir Pseudonymous wrote:And your arguments on the matter have been nothing but strawmen, ad hominem attacks, and constant misdirection when confronted with something you couldn't answer.
What exactly do you want for evidence that piracy doesn't preclude purchase? Arguing against that is like saying a glass of tapwater precludes buying some top-shelf ale.
You could start by discrediting any one of the twenty-six studies mentioned earlier that show it does. If you want to start reading them, most can be found in the Journal of Law and Economics.
A) I've pointed out constantly that google crashes the awful browser on this phone, and B) if that's not behind a paywall, why haven't you bothered to link it?
Further, anyone purporting to demonstrate anything concrete regarding piracy is necessarily lying to some extent or another. The numbers are just too vague and devoid of context to draw anything but wild guesses from. We can see that if it's harmful at all it's trivially so, as all of the industries complaining most vocally are demonstrably thriving, and have been increasingly so even as piracy has risen alongside them.
That ignoring a product is worse than pirating it? That's just basic reasoning; if you ignore something it's objectively a lost sale, while if it's pirated it's potentially a future sale, or word-of-mouth advertising.
You've said this repeatedly, yet there's no evidence out there that agrees with you. Essentially, you're just pulling stuff out of your ass to justify your belief that it's okay to refuse to pay someone for their work simply because you believe you're entitled to it for free.
Exactly what part of that is in contention? That piracy precludes sales? That's so mindnumbingly wrongheaded I don't even know where to begin; of every movie or TV show I've pirated in my time that's worth the time it took to watch, I now own the DVDs for; of the games, any one of them worth owning I have on Steam, mostly *before* having pirated a copy to use on a computer that's not hooked up to the internet; I don't bother with music beyond independents that catch my eye, who provide their own music free; and I have three bookcases overflowing with books, and countless boxes filled with them covering my floor.
The creator of Game of Thrones, the most pirated show in recent history, has described piracy as not only not harmful, but mildly beneficial. On a season one Wire commentary, the creator comes out and says to "buy [the other seasons], pirate them, whatever, just watch them" (paraphrased). How many of these do you want, because they're really not hard to find if you bother looking. The prevailing modern thought is that it's benign, whereas the opposition is nothing but blind reactionist flailing against something new and scary.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 06:48:11
Subject: 'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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Hallowed Canoness
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Ouze wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:Interestingly the UN has recognized a human right regarding internet access. I remember I myself was schooled on that.
ITT, conservatives republicans libertarians decide the UN should guide US legal policy. Truly, their consistent respect for the organization is beacon of consistency that guides us all.
Respect for the UN? Hey now! No need to talk filthy Ouze!  children could be reading this you know
Further, I'm just pointing out it's on the universal declaration of human rights. Not saying they're right or it's a bright idea.
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I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 07:07:48
Subject: 'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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KalashnikovMarine wrote:Further, I'm just pointing out it's on the universal declaration of human rights. Not saying they're right or it's a bright idea.
I have to think you see some merit in the idea, by virtue of you having raised the issue, yes?
DO you think there's a human right to internet access? We're going a hair OT now but once the can's been opened we might as well count the worms.
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lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 07:16:07
Subject: 'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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Hallowed Canoness
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Ouze wrote: KalashnikovMarine wrote:Further, I'm just pointing out it's on the universal declaration of human rights. Not saying they're right or it's a bright idea. I have to think you see some merit in the idea, by virtue of you having raised the issue, yes? DO you think there's a human right to internet access? We're going a hair OT now but once the can's been opened we might as well count the worms. I don't know to be perfectly honest. It is a service and the person who maintains and provides that service deserves to be paid. However there's a fairly clear societal benefit to the internet at this point, we're all gradually becoming more and more "plugged in"
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/05 07:16:58
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
SoB, IG, SM, SW, Nec, Cus, Tau, FoW Germans, Team Yankee Marines, Battletech Clan Wolf, Mercs
DR:90-SG+M+B+I+Pw40k12+ID+++A+++/are/WD-R+++T(S)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 08:23:42
Subject: Re:'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Just look at that rambling mess of vitriol and tell me that guy has a clue what he's talking about. It's just flames and gross misconceptions all the way down.
Some of it -- he even admits -- is indeed anger. A fair bit of which is justified.
But the figures and essential argument he puts forward I've yet to see shot down with any reasonable argument, I see plenty of people doing what you're doing and going " uh uh is not !" without being able to actually back up their argument with any facts, figures or logical conclusion.
The creator of Game of Thrones, the most pirated show in recent history, has described piracy as not only not harmful, but mildly beneficial. On a season one Wire commentary, the creator comes out and says to "buy [the other seasons], pirate them, whatever, just watch them" (paraphrased). How many of these do you want, because they're really not hard to find if you bother looking. The prevailing modern thought is that it's benign, whereas the opposition is nothing but blind reactionist flailing against something new and scary.
No, that's not the current thinking at all. IT's why for example lots of the big media companies are quite behind this crazy idea about people being given X number of "strikes" and losing their internet access, or have taken people to caught for filesharing and the like.
Course the piracy problem -- cause that's what it is -- is also, perhaps, making companies look at different ways of doing things.
http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/02/game-of-thrones-piracy/
The television adaptation of Game of Thrones isn’t just a success for its parent channel, HBO; it also holds the dubious honor of being the most pirated television show of last year on TorrentFreak and other public bittorrent trackers, something that one of the show’s directors, David Petrarca, didn’t seem to mind … at least until his comments on piracy at a recent panel discussion attracted widespread internet attention.
Talking during an appearance at the Perth Writers Festival last weekend, Petrarca reportedly told his audience that he believed that illegal downloading didn’t matter because of the “cultural buzz” and commentary generated by those watching. He went on to say that HBO’s sizable subscriber base — 26 million in the U.S. alone, and 60 million worldwide — meant that the channel was able to afford to create high-quality programming despite those downloading and watching the show illegally.
According to TorrentFreak, a single episode of the show saw around 4,280,000 downloads last year — roughly the same number of people who watch the show on HBO in the U.S. — with more than 80 percent of the downloads occurring outside of the United States. Australia is said to be responsible for 10 percent of each episode’s downloads, a statistic that led to Petrarca’s comment in Perth.
Almost as soon as Petrarca had spoken, his words were widely disseminated and discussed across the internet, leading to a retraction from the director. “I am 100 percent, completely and utterly against people illegally downloading anything,” he told the Sydney Morning Herald earlier today. “Nobody wins by illegally downloading content.”
What he originally meant, Petrarca explained, was that the high level of illegal downloads merely proved that the strength of the show’s fanbase and buzz, not that the downloads contributed to said buzz. “A buzz is created by the fact that so many people want it,” Petrarca explained, adding that he hopes that there will one day be a legal way for international fans to watch the show online. “It is my hope that technology will find a way to take care of the piracy issue,” he said. “I think most people would be willing to pay for a show they love.”
When contacted for comment on this story, HBO released a statement to Wired that “Game of Thrones is sold worldwide, available legally on a large variety of viewing platforms and is one of HBO’s most popular series. With that kind of success comes a great amount of social media chatter, so can’t say we see an upside to illegal downloads.”
Despite HBO’s comment about the show being available legally “on a large variety of viewing platforms,” there remains an ongoing discussion about online access for HBO’s content. Outside of HBO’s proprietary HBOGo service — a streaming service which requires a paid subscription to the HBO cable channel — and individual episodes or seasons for sale on iTunes and Amazon, the show is not legally available online in the United States; HBO rejected offers from the likes of Netflix for streaming rights to its shows in an attempt to maintain as much control over its content as possible.
Last year a fan-led campaign called Take My Money, HBO! tried to convince the cable channel that there was a willing — and paying — audience for a standalone HBO streaming service. “We pirate Game of Thrones, we use our friend’s HBOGo login to watch True Blood,” the campaign admitted. “Please HBO, offer a standalone HBOGo streaming service and Take My Money!” In response, HBO tweeted that it “love[d] the love for HBO,” but directed everyone to a TechCrunch article that suggested that such a decision wouldn’t make financial sense for the channel. With such a high level of piracy, however, the channel may soon have to reconsider the question of whether or not streaming distribution via third party aggregators will end up being the lesser of two evils.
http://www.dga.org/Craft/DGAQ/All-Articles/1001-Spring-2010/Internet-Issues-Piracy-Statistics.aspx
Now this is obviously a group with a vested interest in people paying for what they watch, but the figures they quote show a ridiculous amount of lost revenue.
And bar in mind this group is far more concerned with "everyday" directors ratehr than the multi, multi millionaire ones who could quite probably never work again.
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The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king, |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 15:07:28
Subject: Re:'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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Winged Kroot Vulture
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I don't know, there seems to be a lot left open for interpretation in the companies favor if I am suspected of violating the six strikes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, and maybe this was covered on one of the pages, but how will they really know?
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/05 15:19:22
I'm back! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/03/05 20:48:33
Subject: Re:'Six Strike' System, Slowing Or Suspending Internet For Illegal Downloads, Takes Effect Monday
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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ProtoClone wrote:I don't know, there seems to be a lot left open for interpretation in the companies favor if I am suspected of violating the six strikes.
Yes, that's the nature of contracts of adhesion. It's very much "take it or leave it", and your retain the right to walk away at any time, generally speaking.
ProtoClone wrote:Also, and maybe this was covered on one of the pages, but how will they really know?
Although there are lots of ways of transferring files for peer-to-peer file sharing of the infringing kind, I'm going to explain the MPAA/RIAA's favorite low hanging fruit, BitTorrent, because it's not only very popular, but absolute the easiest to do. First, this is how BT works:
1.) When you connect to your ISP, your ISP gives you connection a unique IP address. That may be further subdivided within your house - maybe parceled out via your wifi, router, what have you - but to the ISP, you're just this one IP.
2.) When you download a torrent file and connect to a tracker, you send the torrent tracker your IP address. It essentially says, here I am, here's what I have, here's what I want, going by the torrent file, which is map to a file broken into hundreds of pieces.
3.) The tracker then distributes your IP address to all the other peers and seeds, saying here's 192.168.1.x, he wants pieces a/b/c, he has piece D. At this point you connect to all of the people who have what you want and to whom a connection is possible. You are in downloading mode.
4.) Simultaneously to downloading, as soon as you have a single piece, your torrent application tells the tracker, I have piece B now, and it tells all the other peers this, so they can get from you.
5.) Many trackers use a distributed tracking protocol called DHT, which means if the primary tracker goes down, the peers themselves can talk to each other. Anyway.
6.) Once you have a full copy of the file, you enter seeding mode, where you're telling the tracker I have a full copy, and the rest of the swarm can get any piece from you.
So , how does the rights holder find you? Easy. All they have to do is
1.) Go to TPB or whatever public tracker they please (again, they're going for the low hanging fruit here).
2.) Then search for an Insane Clown Posse mp3 or whatever they have the rights for they want to enforce.
3.) Then they download a torrent of it. They join the swarm right at step 3 above, just like you did.
4.) Then all they have to do, literally, is open the tab in their torrent client that shows all the IP addresses that are connectable. Many torrent clients even helpfully show a map of where that IP is from, so they can filter out the clients from jurisdictions that won't help them (Russia, China, etc). Luckily, there are still tons and tons of Americans using BitTorrent on public trackers, so they literally have as many IP's as they want!
5.) They then go to any of the hundreds of free websites that will resolve your IP to an ISP. We'll use this one.
6.) They paste the IP into the box, and then boom, they know who your ISP is.
7.) Now, all they have to do is subpoena the ISP for your subscriber information. Some ISP's will fight this, but most will not.
8.) And that's how a lawsuit is born!
Note, there are a lot of problems with this process, which are beyond the scope of this simple explanation (for example, an IP isn't actually a person). I'm simply answering the question in a lay manner.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/05 20:48:57
lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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