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The Mammoth's tusks overhang almost as much as its own base is wide.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ehh, PPs current choice of material is pretty bad. Its surprising its taken them so long to start using regular plastic.

I mean, the material is ok for the sculpts its been used for. Fairly chunky and not too fine of detail. But its just that, ok. Not great.

Why they haven't changed is an easy one. PVC is dirt cheap for them to produce and vast swathes of their customer base either don't care or have enough time to clean endless mold lines that they keep buying. The people like me who stop represent a minority. The loss in income from selling to me is made up for by the huge profit they make from people who "can't see what's so bad about the stuff."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I won't pay premium prices for the gak. But that's just me.

angryboy2k wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ehh, PPs current choice of material is pretty bad. Its surprising its taken them so long to start using regular plastic.

I mean, the material is ok for the sculpts its been used for. Fairly chunky and not too fine of detail. But its just that, ok. Not great.

Why they haven't changed is an easy one. PVC is dirt cheap for them to produce and vast swathes of their customer base either don't care or have enough time to clean endless mold lines that they keep buying. The people like me who stop represent a minority. The loss in income from selling to me is made up for by the huge profit they make from people who "can't see what's so bad about the stuff."

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I won't pay premium prices for the gak. But that's just me.

Another issue is that most of the PP players in my area are gamers more than hobbyists. I think this is also indicated by the amount of conversion/innovation we don't see from Warmahordes players in the P&M forums. Maybe the forray into plastics (real plastic, that is. ) will help change that.

 Breotan wrote:

Another issue is that most of the PP players in my area are gamers more than hobbyists. I think this is also indicated by the amount of conversion/innovation we don't see from Warmahordes players in the P&M forums. Maybe the forray into plastics (real plastic, that is. ) will help change that.

No, you don't see conversions a lot because you have the vocal minority that will shout at any repose, bit swap, or Menoth forbid you use a GW bit, and declare it "not tournament legal". PP has a conversion policy, and if followed, will enable great things. Almost every time I post a conversion in one of the Facebook groups or see one it's always the same yelling and howling. It stifles a lot of creativity and is one downside. People want to say GW bits are "obviously IP of another company" and will chock up heads, swords, and a bunch of other BS that GW only wishes in their wildest dreams (or court battles) was actually protected.

It's a downside to the games that will hopefully become less of an issue later. If/when GW dies, it will be much less of an issue as other game companies are far less litigious about the asinine thing of bits. I can only imagine that the guys a PP would be full of sniggers and elbows if an iconic bit of theirs made it into a White Dwarf on a mini.

 Breotan wrote:

Another issue is that most of the PP players in my area are gamers more than hobbyists. I think this is also indicated by the amount of conversion/innovation we don't see from Warmahordes players in the P&M forums. Maybe the forray into plastics (real plastic, that is. ) will help change that.

I think that is a fair point. On the other hand, less of PPs stuff makes me really excited to paint their models (which is what kept me away from the game so long), so I think the effects are somewhat self reinforcing. Still, PP definitely attracts many more gamers than hobbyists over all.

 Wehrkind wrote:

I think that is a fair point. On the other hand, less of PPs stuff makes me really excited to paint their models (which is what kept me away from the game so long), so I think the effects are somewhat self reinforcing. Still, PP definitely attracts many more gamers than hobbyists over all.

I've seen a fair amount of great hobbyists in the PP realm, too. Metal work just requires a lot more effort that even I don't want to put forward. My creativity comes out in now display miniatures and maybe the casual GW kit bash, but I leave my gaming minis pretty clinical just for transport and gameplay reasons.

And PPs official stance on modding and scratch building doesn't encourage the hobby side as much either.

 Wehrkind wrote:
And PPs official stance on modding and scratch building doesn't encourage the hobby side as much either.

As I posted above, it's actually more lenient than the doomhowlers proclaim. You have to ensure the model is 50% PP and still includes the appropriate weapons the model is to represent all while staying on the same base size.

Past that, go bananas. Back when GW held tournaments, they had pretty much the same rules. In the end, your local PG/TO has final say. And if unsure, carry a second model as a stand in chump.

The thing about the conversion stance is in some respects due to the nature of the game though. Wm is such a "tight" rules set where any model can bring about immediate and brutal victory, so if you are spending more time trying to work out what is what, an unexpected model conversion can cost you a game.

Obviously players should take the time before a game to explain everything and so forth, but in the heat of "top end" comp there is almost an ability to model for advantage.

One of the strengths of the pp line is the strong silhouette to each unit/model that keeps identification fairly simple which is key for the nature of the game.

Now, naming all the menoth jacks starting with R on the other hand

I've seen (as to and convention organiser) some extreme cases of armies, which while nicely converted and painted, fail the quick comprehension challenge pretty hard. Armies of mantic/rackham/gw parts with nothing to tie them back to the faction the represent, the goblin army of "khador" was impossible to discern what was what

Btw, someone mentioned the "soft molds" of pvc, it's actually the same mold set up as for styrene, that's the depressing part. Just the material allows for more organic shapes and undercuts as its still warm and pliable when first cast so can be torn from a mold where styrene would be locked in.

That's why you get such miserable warping and tearing, plus bent parts, as the factory guys are not concerned about preserving your toys, they just want to get the job done ASAP.

That's also the depressing thing about styrene. It's more profitable by far for companies to be making plates/pens/whatever than our little dudes, the margins on styrene are far smaller, so it's actually harder to find people to make them. Hence why there is not a proliferation of companies doing it (rendera and wargames factory being the obvious two). It's why it still impresses me that wyrd managed to convert their entire line to hips despite needing much smaller product runs, and why gw's strategy boggles my mind as they do everything in house and control basically the entire process, so should be using the high quantity, low cost model to continue to hold their position on top, rather than squander it to all the young pups that we see these days. Not that I don't enjoy many of their competitors and haven't touched gw for several years now.

Go look up legoburners trip to China on this site, pretty sure he has done pics of pvc molds in there, or else Google relic Knights molds.

And then there was the Adepticon tournament where the PP employee declared all GW parts period banned after the event had started. Ive actually heard of them banning a conversion I did for someone that used only PP parts and sculpting putty which followed all their rules. Pretty much any conversion you do risks a DQ, even if you follow all the rules they lay out. It's gotten to be really restrictive and I pretty much ignore them anymore and will simply not bother attending events run by PP.

Also they're not Switching to styrene plastic, they're just adding it to available materials they'll use. Supposedly the plan is styrene for mechanical stuff like the CoC Battle Engine and the Vengeance Warjacks, but future Warbeasts and troops and organic stuff is still going to use PVC. Their Styrene production currently takes for freaking ever too. I don't really Hate the PVC, but the styrene is definitely prefered.

Also also, have you noticed how no picture, not even the artwork, of the Sacral Vault shows a clear picture of the victim on the top of it?

Plastic Reeves and Wolves

http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/units/wolves-of-orboros



http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery/circle-orboros/units/reeves-of-orboros

 AduroT wrote:

Also also, have you noticed how no picture, not even the artwork, of the Sacral Vault shows a clear picture of the victim on the top of it?

Its got to be becuae his junk is out right? Won't be the first PP model that is anotomically accurate, but this is far more prevalant a wang.

Loving those new Circle infantry.

JonWebb wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

Also also, have you noticed how no picture, not even the artwork, of the Sacral Vault shows a clear picture of the victim on the top of it?

Its got to be becuae his junk is out right? Won't be the first PP model that is anotomically accurate, but this is far more prevalant a wang.

Nah, I HIGHLY doubt they'd do blatent human nudity. It seems to be more a reluctance to show the neck stump. That's the part that's always obscured.

And those Wolves have Really thick hafts on those spears. Theyre larger around than your average forearm.

 AduroT wrote:

JonWebb wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

Also also, have you noticed how no picture, not even the artwork, of the Sacral Vault shows a clear picture of the victim on the top of it?

Its got to be becuae his junk is out right? Won't be the first PP model that is anotomically accurate, but this is far more prevalant a wang.

Nah, I HIGHLY doubt they'd do blatent human nudity. It seems to be more a reluctance to show the neck stump. That's the part that's always obscured.

And those Wolves have Really thick hafts on those spears. Theyre larger around than your average forearm.

Yeah, it looks really weird with the almost truescale hands.

 Surtur wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

JonWebb wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

Also also, have you noticed how no picture, not even the artwork, of the Sacral Vault shows a clear picture of the victim on the top of it?

Its got to be becuae his junk is out right? Won't be the first PP model that is anotomically accurate, but this is far more prevalant a wang.

Nah, I HIGHLY doubt they'd do blatent human nudity. It seems to be more a reluctance to show the neck stump. That's the part that's always obscured.

And those Wolves have Really thick hafts on those spears. Theyre larger around than your average forearm.

Yeah, it looks really weird with the almost truescale hands.

You HAD to point it out didn't you. I liked them before that.

It doesn't matter though how thick the spear hafts are really. They're made of PVC so they're going to be noodles and you're going to replace them with brass rod. The larger original haft just makes it that much easier to drill out before you replace them with thinner brass.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Wehrkind wrote:
And PPs official stance on modding and scratch building doesn't encourage the hobby side as much either.

As I posted above, it's actually more lenient than the doomhowlers proclaim. You have to ensure the model is 50% PP and still includes the appropriate weapons the model is to represent all while staying on the same base size.

Past that, go bananas. Back when GW held tournaments, they had pretty much the same rules. In the end, your local PG/TO has final say. And if unsure, carry a second model as a stand in chump.

I am going off personal experience, not dooomies. Look at the rules for characters; basically you have to use the upgrade kit parts. You can play around with other aspects of the model for basic beasts and jacks, but you are pretty limited on what will fly. As others have pointed out, there are some harsh requirements for PP events that have photography.
Further, having a back up model to use sort of defeats the purpose. If I am going to use my own Ghettorix because I dislike the official model, I am none too pleased to have to own the official model anyway if I ever want to use it outside my home. At that point I won't bother with a conversion and nice paint job, I will just get the requirement and slap on a quick paint job and call it done. Hence, less painting and modeling.

SOOOOO glad about the plastic wolves and Reeves! I have been waiting for those; after putting together Halberdiers in metal, I couldn't imagine doing the wolves.

JonWebb wrote:
Btw, someone mentioned the "soft molds" of pvc, it's actually the same mold set up as for styrene, that's the depressing part. Just the material allows for more organic shapes and undercuts as its still warm and pliable when first cast so can be torn from a mold where styrene would be locked in.

Go look up legoburners trip to China on this site, pretty sure he has done pics of pvc molds in there, or else Google relic Knights molds.

Nope. PVC molds are cheap, soft material. That is why they are still cheaper than aluminum molds. They can do undercuts in PVC because the mold is soft and isn't locked into one plane. The mold lines that travel over a surface and split into multiple lines show how the mold can be cut to open like a chestburster egg. The PVC mold might have a gypsum mother to keep it stable and reduce material, but it still isn't like an injected HIPS mold.

Legoburner went to see Wargames Factory's production, so that was all HIPS with (presumably) steel molds.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Surtur wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

JonWebb wrote:

 AduroT wrote:

Also also, have you noticed how no picture, not even the artwork, of the Sacral Vault shows a clear picture of the victim on the top of it?

Its got to be becuae his junk is out right? Won't be the first PP model that is anotomically accurate, but this is far more prevalant a wang.

Nah, I HIGHLY doubt they'd do blatent human nudity. It seems to be more a reluctance to show the neck stump. That's the part that's always obscured.

And those Wolves have Really thick hafts on those spears. Theyre larger around than your average forearm.

Yeah, it looks really weird with the almost truescale hands.

You HAD to point it out didn't you. I liked them before that.

They're still good models, the weapons are just oversized. It's what's holding them back from being great models.

I'll take spears that bend over the old ones that just broke.

Nice Reeve models. Now make them not suck, please.

 .Mikes. wrote:
Nice Reeve models. Now make them not suck, please.

Well if you run a Moonhound you can give them +2 to hit and even take away Stealth.

They at very least stop sucking.

Does anyone know if the starter army box things are available in the UK anywhere other than Wayland Games? I'm reluctant to order from there.

 BaconSlayer wrote:

JonWebb wrote:
Btw, someone mentioned the "soft molds" of pvc, it's actually the same mold set up as for styrene, that's the depressing part. Just the material allows for more organic shapes and undercuts as its still warm and pliable when first cast so can be torn from a mold where styrene would be locked in.

Go look up legoburners trip to China on this site, pretty sure he has done pics of pvc molds in there, or else Google relic Knights molds.

Nope. PVC molds are cheap, soft material. That is why they are still cheaper than aluminum molds. They can do undercuts in PVC because the mold is soft and isn't locked into one plane. The mold lines that travel over a surface and split into multiple lines show how the mold can be cut to open like a chestburster egg. The PVC mold might have a gypsum mother to keep it stable and reduce material, but it still isn't like an injected HIPS mold.

Legoburner went to see Wargames Factory's production, so that was all HIPS with (presumably) steel molds.

Err the molds that PP uses are actually steel molds (I know this because I spoke to some of the PP staffers about various things at Templecon last year). The PVC material that the models are cast in is what is actually soft, it takes some time for the PVC to properly set which allows them to pull the parts out despite undercuts without deforming the models (the elastic memory of the material means that it will return to shape relatively quickly while its still soft).

chaos0xomega wrote:

 BaconSlayer wrote:

JonWebb wrote:
Btw, someone mentioned the "soft molds" of pvc, it's actually the same mold set up as for styrene, that's the depressing part. Just the material allows for more organic shapes and undercuts as its still warm and pliable when first cast so can be torn from a mold where styrene would be locked in.

Go look up legoburners trip to China on this site, pretty sure he has done pics of pvc molds in there, or else Google relic Knights molds.

Nope. PVC molds are cheap, soft material. That is why they are still cheaper than aluminum molds. They can do undercuts in PVC because the mold is soft and isn't locked into one plane. The mold lines that travel over a surface and split into multiple lines show how the mold can be cut to open like a chestburster egg. The PVC mold might have a gypsum mother to keep it stable and reduce material, but it still isn't like an injected HIPS mold.

Legoburner went to see Wargames Factory's production, so that was all HIPS with (presumably) steel molds.

Err the molds that PP uses are actually steel molds (I know this because I spoke to some of the PP staffers about various things at Templecon last year). The PVC material that the models are cast in is what is actually soft, it takes some time for the PVC to properly set which allows them to pull the parts out despite undercuts without deforming the models (the elastic memory of the material means that it will return to shape relatively quickly while its still soft).

That must be a recent change, and even then I'd bet they are aluminum as the last time I got quotes on that material, there was still a significant price gap. The quantities needed to make it a worthwhile investment, even for gashpon or trading figures, probably shifted the decimal point on the quantity over two or three spaces. To get actual steel molds like they use for plumbing pieces and electrical enclosures, shift that decimal 3-4 spaces. Or that seemed to be the general feeling when I was looking at quotes 6-9 months ago.

 BaconSlayer wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 BaconSlayer wrote:

JonWebb wrote:
Btw, someone mentioned the "soft molds" of pvc, it's actually the same mold set up as for styrene, that's the depressing part. Just the material allows for more organic shapes and undercuts as its still warm and pliable when first cast so can be torn from a mold where styrene would be locked in.

Go look up legoburners trip to China on this site, pretty sure he has done pics of pvc molds in there, or else Google relic Knights molds.

Nope. PVC molds are cheap, soft material. That is why they are still cheaper than aluminum molds. They can do undercuts in PVC because the mold is soft and isn't locked into one plane. The mold lines that travel over a surface and split into multiple lines show how the mold can be cut to open like a chestburster egg. The PVC mold might have a gypsum mother to keep it stable and reduce material, but it still isn't like an injected HIPS mold.

Legoburner went to see Wargames Factory's production, so that was all HIPS with (presumably) steel molds.

Err the molds that PP uses are actually steel molds (I know this because I spoke to some of the PP staffers about various things at Templecon last year). The PVC material that the models are cast in is what is actually soft, it takes some time for the PVC to properly set which allows them to pull the parts out despite undercuts without deforming the models (the elastic memory of the material means that it will return to shape relatively quickly while its still soft).

That must be a recent change, and even then I'd bet they are aluminum as the last time I got quotes on that material, there was still a significant price gap. The quantities needed to make it a worthwhile investment, even for gashpon or trading figures, probably shifted the decimal point on the quantity over two or three spaces. To get actual steel molds like they use for plumbing pieces and electrical enclosures, shift that decimal 3-4 spaces. Or that seemed to be the general feeling when I was looking at quotes 6-9 months ago.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/projects/276905/posts/601455/image-327800-full.jpg?1379410747

I took a perverse interest in PVC production once it was foistered on us PVC is fine for action figures and certain bedroom purposes, but sucks for quality wargaming pieces.

You are right though, Legoburner went to wargames factory, the PVC for PP/Soda Pop etc is produced by a different factory that I don't know the name of. I was getting my wires crossed there. I originaly thought they were the same place, but speaking to someone in the know he mentioend they were not one and the same.

The multiple mold lines are due to the molds being more than two part, unlike GW, china and much of the manufacturing world figured that tech out long before the baneblade slide mold tech they were so proud of.

Pretty sure they are aluminium not steel of course, to keep costs as low as possible, but appreciate they are still pricey on balance. Even GW is messing with aluminium molds these days (I believe the scenery line was where they started to play with that, but its been a while since I had anything to do with GW, this is more information gleaned from reading about).

Templecon anouncement, new colossals:








Also, for those waiting on a possible new Hordes faction, PP says: ''We won't be adding any new factions anytime in the near future.''

Love the new Colossals!

I was also intrigued by their new co-op board game...

 Alex C wrote:
Love the new Colossals!

I was also intrigued by their new co-op board game...

I literally just bought my third Gargossal today and thought that I was done with them, now these new ones appear...

I'm also very curious about Warmahordes: Descent edition, I was on the lookout for a board / miniature game that I could use to introduce my son to the hobby and this one has potential to be "the one".