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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Scenario : Setting up a 750 point match, but my army points do not reach 750 points...

Rule : Every Black Templars army of at least 750 points must include an Emperor's Champion. Forces smaller than this can include the EC, but do not have to.

So If i am to play a 750 point game, but my army point total stays under the 750 point mark, Do I need to include the EC if the agreed upon total for the game is 750? or can I keep him out of the line up since the total is not that high.
   
Made in sa
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dundee, Scotland/Dharahn, Saudi Arabia

Yes, because you're playing a 750pt game.
That your army has 749pts is irrelevant, it's still a 750pt game

If the thought of something makes me giggle for longer than 15 seconds, I am to assume that I am not allowed to do it.
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Made in ie
Sniping Hexa




Dublin

I disagree with marv335 there ... The amounts of point in the army is different than the one from the game itself
It would be akin to saying that :
I'm playing a 1000 pts game but only managed to cram 998 points in, my army is thus illegal and I can't play

The writing of the codex is quite clear
"Every Black Templars army of at least 750 points must include an Emperor's Champion"
not "Every game of at least 750 pts where you field a BT army must blablabla"

On a sidenote (not YMDC note), a 750 pts is usually friendly, it'd be utterly stupid to have to field 2 HQs at 750 in a friendly game

 
   
Made in gb
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Liverpool

I'm going to disagree with TanKoL, you can't create an army if you don't know what you're playing to.
That's like saying I can't have a second FoC because I only spent 1999 points (thus making my 3 HQ's illegal).
If you agree to 750 points, then that's what you've got to spend and would have to have a Champion.
   
Made in ie
Sniping Hexa




Dublin

Rulebook page 110 "Bigger games"
"This being the case, if you're playing a game of 2,000 points
or more, you can talce an additional primary detachment."

note that the term "game" is being used here, not "army" as in the BT Codex

page 108 "Size of Game"
"For example, if you decide to play a 2,000-point game' then
neither player can spend more than 2,000 points on their army. In
realiry, most armies are acfually a shade smaller than the agreed
points limit"

This shows there is a clear difference between "game points value" and "army points value"

I'm not saying how I would play it (I wrote a small BT fandex for my previous gaming club, fandex that compltely removed the mandatory nature of the Champion), I'm saying about how it reads

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

You agreed to play a 750 point game. You chose to play Black Templars. The Emperor's Champion must be on your list.

DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




You agreed to a 750 point game, yes, but if your army does not total 750 points then you do not need to field the Emperor's Champion. If your total amounted to 749, you aren't using a 750 point army.

Now of course this goes wonky with Dual Force Org at 2k, but I think they state if the agreed game is 2k points then you double the FoC. BT specifically states 'army' rather than 'game'.
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




You need to take the Emperors champion.
If you don't then the reverse argument suddenly becomes true. If you want to play a 2000 point dual force org game and you're points total is 1999 you're obligated to only having a single force org.

Besides at 750 points the Emperors Champion is awesome. Easy to proxy and damned cool.

There is only the Emperor
Ave Dominus Nox! 
   
Made in gb
Water-Caste Negotiator





Apparently there's a lot of disagreement here.

For what it's worth, I think it's silly to say if the army is smaller than 750 points for one purpose that means the army can still be 750 point in size for another purpose.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 16:10:43


Tau, Dark Eldar and Inquisition 40K player, occasional Lizardman Fantasy player, proud Lord of the Rings player and Rebel X-Wing player

> 4000 pts 1500 pts 1500 pts 1500pts

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Made in us
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader





Massachusetts

i agree with Tank. There is a big difference between a 750 point army and a 750 point game. The language of the BT codex makes it clear that it is the point value of the army that counts, not the point value of the game it is playing in.

And Battleranch's assertion that the reverse argument (for dual FOC) would be true, is actually false. The language of the rule book

"if you're playing a game of 2,000 points or more, you can take an additional primary detachment."

makes it clear that for dual FOC, it is the point limit agreed to that counts and NOT the actual point value of the army.

2500 pts

Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.



 
   
Made in gb
Morphing Obliterator






I would say you must take the champion in a 750pt game. The exact amount you spend on the army is irrelevant, you are playing a 750pt game with a 750pt army.

As for the double force org thing at 2000pts, a 1999pt army is still a 2000pt army in my book.

What is with all this 1999+1 pt nonsense I see on here and other places anyway? Some way of getting around dual force orgs?

Chaos Space Marines - Iron Warriors & Night Lords 7900pts

 
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




battleranch wrote:
You need to take the Emperors champion.
If you don't then the reverse argument suddenly becomes true. If you want to play a 2000 point dual force org game and you're points total is 1999 you're obligated to only having a single force org.

Besides at 750 points the Emperors Champion is awesome. Easy to proxy and damned cool.


That's the thing, we have two different wordings. The book states 'game' while the BT codex states 'army.' While you can agree to a 750 point 'game,' your 'army can very well be under 750 points. Due to the 'army' being under 750 points, it does not meet the requirements for having a mandatory Emperor's Champion.

When we go to Dual FoC, it specifically states 'game.' So you agree to a 2 000 point 'game,' which meets the requirement for dual FoC. If your 'army' does not total 2k points you still have met the requirements for Dual FoC (2k game) and thus can use Dual FoC at 1 999. If you were playing a 1 999+1 'game,' your army can be the 2 000 points but the requirements aren't met for the 'game' to take a Dual FoC.

Or something along those lines. The main difference I'm getting at is the BT codex says 'army' while the book says 'game.'

What is with all this 1999+1 pt nonsense I see on here and other places anyway? Some way of getting around dual force orgs?


That's exactly it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/28 16:13:20


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

The 1999+1 pt nonsense is a 2000 pt army but limited to a single FOC.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in us
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader





Massachusetts

 Happyjew wrote:
The 1999+1 pt nonsense is a 2000 pt army but limited to a single FOC.


Yes exactly. It is a short hand way of telling the people reading your army list on the forum that you and your opponent have agreed to restrict your armies to a single FOC. It may look like non-sense, but it serves a practical purpose by efficiently communicating information.

2500 pts

Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.



 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




But you're army can't be well under 750 points. When you agree to a 750 point game that's how big your army is. That means your army has to be 750 points, Any more or less needs to be approved by you're opponent. Trying to exploit the difference between the words "game" and "army" is bull. You agreed to 750 points per army you are obligated to do you're best to reach that point level while meeting all of your armies restrictions which in black templars case is 1 hq, 2 troops and an Emperors Champion

There is only the Emperor
Ave Dominus Nox! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





RAW is no EC required. The EC only becomes a requirement when the black templar army meets or exceeds 750. The points level of a game is your max points, this is just like counting bodies for special weapons or any other threshold measurement. If you make a BT army at 730 for a 750 max match then no EC is required by RAW.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/28 17:27:28


 
   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

So if he was playing a 650 point list no EC, 700 no EC, 720.....
but once the game is 750 then it overrides the wording of the rules in the codex?
RAW is RAW not HYWPI

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For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

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Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

battleranch wrote:
But you're army can't be well under 750 points. When you agree to a 750 point game that's how big your army is. That means your army has to be 750 points, Any more or less needs to be approved by you're opponent. Trying to exploit the difference between the words "game" and "army" is bull. You agreed to 750 points per army you are obligated to do you're best to reach that point level while meeting all of your armies restrictions which in black templars case is 1 hq, 2 troops and an Emperors Champion

Wrong. Agreeing to a 750 point game means that you've agreed not to have more than 750 points in your army and for things like the Emperor's Champion your army is considered to be a '750 point army'. You are not obligated to spend any more points than required other than to field a legal army by the Force Organization chart.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
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Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

battleranch wrote:
But you're army can't be well under 750 points. When you agree to a 750 point game that's how big your army is. That means your army has to be 750 points, Any more or less needs to be approved by you're opponent. Trying to exploit the difference between the words "game" and "army" is bull. You agreed to 750 points per army you are obligated to do you're best to reach that point level while meeting all of your armies restrictions which in black templars case is 1 hq, 2 troops and an Emperors Champion


That's bull, you have up to 750 points to play with. You're not forced to use them all.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Ghaz wrote:
for things like the Emperor's Champion your army is considered to be a '750 point army'.


This is as made up as it gets. The RAW of the rule is very specific there is not counts as, no wiggle room. Buying an EC only kicks in when your points spent crosses the threshold, it has nothing to do with the max points limit.
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






 Ghaz wrote:
battleranch wrote:
But you're army can't be well under 750 points. When you agree to a 750 point game that's how big your army is. That means your army has to be 750 points, Any more or less needs to be approved by you're opponent. Trying to exploit the difference between the words "game" and "army" is bull. You agreed to 750 points per army you are obligated to do you're best to reach that point level while meeting all of your armies restrictions which in black templars case is 1 hq, 2 troops and an Emperors Champion

Wrong. Agreeing to a 750 point game means that you've agreed not to have more than 750 points in your army and for things like the Emperor's Champion your army is considered to be a '750 point army'. You are not obligated to spend any more points than required other than to field a legal army by the Force Organization chart.


I even went back to look at the 5th edition codex and they do definitely seem to make a differentiation between game size and army size. The only reason I looked there was to see if there was a difference between the rulebooks in wording and such.

What I've found is that your army can be any size up to the agreed points limit, even if your army is lower than the max points allowed you are still considered to be playing a XXX points game but that does not mean your army is XXX points.

That being said, playing a 750 point game and having a 750 point army are not the same thing from what I see.
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




 Ghaz wrote:
battleranch wrote:
But you're army can't be well under 750 points. When you agree to a 750 point game that's how big your army is. That means your army has to be 750 points, Any more or less needs to be approved by you're opponent. Trying to exploit the difference between the words "game" and "army" is bull. You agreed to 750 points per army you are obligated to do you're best to reach that point level while meeting all of your armies restrictions which in black templars case is 1 hq, 2 troops and an Emperors Champion

Wrong. Agreeing to a 750 point game means that you've agreed not to have more than 750 points in your army and for things like the Emperor's Champion your army is considered to be a '750 point army'. You are not obligated to spend any more points than required other than to field a legal army by the Force Organization chart.


No you're required to meet the points level you agree to with the person you're playing with. This basic social interaction type stuff. If you say "hey lets play a game of warhammer 40,000 at 750 points" and then show up with 500 you're not holding up you're side of the bargain. If you're playing black templar and want to play at 750 points Bring the Emperors champion. That's what you agreed to do. Your army should be 750 points. If it isn't you're cheating. You are willfully ignoring rules in the rule book and the rules you and your opponent agreed to (750 points). The simplest solution is just play a smaller game. If you can play 650 points just do that. It's clear what the book means and I can only assume that you don't have the model. Otherwise you are cooking your points for an advantage somewhere and ignoring your obligation to create an army of 750 pts.

All of this talk about the points values being the "max" you can play at is stupid. When you agree to play a game you should with an army at that points value. if your short or above you let your opponent know. I'm betting he will say yes with-in reason. It's like bringing a proxied model. But if you're online looking for fuel for an argument what you're doing is probably wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 20:27:05


There is only the Emperor
Ave Dominus Nox! 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

battleranch wrote:
No you're required to meet the points level you agree to with the person you're playing with.


Page 108 seems to disagree with you. Especially the part that says the point limit determines the maximum points you can spend on your army.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
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Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






battleranch wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
battleranch wrote:
But you're army can't be well under 750 points. When you agree to a 750 point game that's how big your army is. That means your army has to be 750 points, Any more or less needs to be approved by you're opponent. Trying to exploit the difference between the words "game" and "army" is bull. You agreed to 750 points per army you are obligated to do you're best to reach that point level while meeting all of your armies restrictions which in black templars case is 1 hq, 2 troops and an Emperors Champion

Wrong. Agreeing to a 750 point game means that you've agreed not to have more than 750 points in your army and for things like the Emperor's Champion your army is considered to be a '750 point army'. You are not obligated to spend any more points than required other than to field a legal army by the Force Organization chart.


No you're required to meet the points level you agree to with the person you're playing with. This basic social interaction type stuff. If you say "hey lets play a game of warhammer 40,000 at 750 points" and then show up with 500 you're not holding up you're side of the bargain. If you're playing black templar and want to play at 750 points Bring the Emperors champion. That's what you agreed to do. Your army should be 750 points. If it isn't you're cheating. You are willfully ignoring rules in the rule book and the rules you and your opponent agreed to (750 points). The simplest solution is just play a smaller game. If you can play 650 points just do that. It's clear what the book means and I can only assume that you don't have the model. Otherwise you are cooking your points for an advantage somewhere and ignoring your obligation to create an army of 750 pts.

All of this talk about the points values being the "max" you can play at is stupid. When you agree to play a game you should with an army at that points value. if your short or above you let your opponent know. I'm betting he will say yes with-in reason. It's like bringing a proxied model. But if you're online looking for fuel for an argument what you're doing is probably wrong.


Happyjew wrote:
battleranch wrote:
No you're required to meet the points level you agree to with the person you're playing with.


Page 108 seems to disagree with you. Especially the part that says the point limit determines the maximum points you can spend on your army.



And the part that says it's really hard to get at the exact points so most games are usually a few points shy or if agreed on, a few points over (as a few points won't make or break the game).
   
Made in us
Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



Ft Hood TX

Battleranch, got a page number that plainly says you have to fill in all your points for the agreed to list? Only asking cause I have a couple armys that are a couple points shy each, never bothered me before, couldnt shimmy them in. Only seems like it matters because the OP would have to take some shiney expensive model in his case where as I do not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Retracted as knocked out by Happyjew and Kevin.
Thanks guys for fast clarifaction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 20:52:01


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Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




page 108 Completely venerates me. It Says you and you're opponent agree on a points limit then goes on to say if you can't reach that points limit you play a smaller game. The underlying meaning being you do you're best to make the army the right points level. Not make an army under the points level regardless of what you agreed upon. page 108 doesn't give you the right to bring 1000 points to a 3000 point game.

If you want to play Black Templar at 750 points you take an Emperors Champion. if you don't have the model you can proxy it fairly easily. The fact you are 1 point shy doesn't change that you agree to play a 750 point army. So you can ether play 850 points and have you're Emperors champion, or 650 and not. you can even do 700 points. There are a tonne of solutions to this problem and none of them are as shakey as "technically your army isn't 750 pts" You can avoid the argument entirely.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/28 21:02:17


There is only the Emperor
Ave Dominus Nox! 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

battleranch wrote:
page 108 Completely venerates me. It Says you and you're opponent agree on a points limit then goes on to say if you can't reach that points limit you play a smaller game. The underlying meaning being you do you're best to make the army the right points level. Not make an army under the points level regardless of what you agreed upon. page 108 doesn't give you the right to bring 1000 points to a 3000 point game.


Page 108 says you agree on a point limit. This is the max number of points your army can be. It then goes onto say that most lists are just shy of the agreed point limit, and occasionally it might be just over (which is OK if your opponent says it is). Your claim was that if you and your opponent were to agree on a point limit of, say, 1000 pts your army must be exactly 1000 pts unless you and your opponent agree it can be just shy (say 999 pts).

Furthermore, since the rule says it is the max that means it is the upper limit. If you want to bring a 500 pt army to a 1500 pt game, that is your choice. Of course it will more than likely be heavily 1-sided and I doubt either side would have much fun.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




 Happyjew wrote:
battleranch wrote:
page 108 Completely venerates me. It Says you and you're opponent agree on a points limit then goes on to say if you can't reach that points limit you play a smaller game. The underlying meaning being you do you're best to make the army the right points level. Not make an army under the points level regardless of what you agreed upon. page 108 doesn't give you the right to bring 1000 points to a 3000 point game.


Page 108 says you agree on a point limit. This is the max number of points your army can be. It then goes onto say that most lists are just shy of the agreed point limit, and occasionally it might be just over (which is OK if your opponent says it is). Your claim was that if you and your opponent were to agree on a point limit of, say, 1000 pts your army must be exactly 1000 pts unless you and your opponent agree it can be just shy (say 999 pts).

Furthermore, since the rule says it is the max that means it is the upper limit. If you want to bring a 500 pt army to a 1500 pt game, that is your choice. Of course it will more than likely be heavily 1-sided and I doubt either side would have much fun.


Sure it's you're choice to be 1000 points down. But in reality where people aren't jerks they would ether not play you or lower their points to have a fair game.
I'm not talking rules as written. This isn't in the rule book. This is simply treating your opponent with respect. Do you seriously need a book to tell you how to act? Has rules as written finally come to the point where common courtesy doesn't get factored into a rules interpretation because Adam Troke, Jeremy Vetock and Matt Ward forgot to write the section about it? Do you seriously feel that it's more important that you can secure your right to play below the agreed upon points limit than it is to treat your opponent with respect?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 21:52:09


There is only the Emperor
Ave Dominus Nox! 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

battleranch wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
battleranch wrote:
page 108 Completely venerates me. It Says you and you're opponent agree on a points limit then goes on to say if you can't reach that points limit you play a smaller game. The underlying meaning being you do you're best to make the army the right points level. Not make an army under the points level regardless of what you agreed upon. page 108 doesn't give you the right to bring 1000 points to a 3000 point game.


Page 108 says you agree on a point limit. This is the max number of points your army can be. It then goes onto say that most lists are just shy of the agreed point limit, and occasionally it might be just over (which is OK if your opponent says it is). Your claim was that if you and your opponent were to agree on a point limit of, say, 1000 pts your army must be exactly 1000 pts unless you and your opponent agree it can be just shy (say 999 pts).

Furthermore, since the rule says it is the max that means it is the upper limit. If you want to bring a 500 pt army to a 1500 pt game, that is your choice. Of course it will more than likely be heavily 1-sided and I doubt either side would have much fun.


Sure it's you're choice to be 1000 points down. But in reality where people aren't jerks they would ether not play you or lower their points to have a fair game.
I'm not talking rules as written. This isn't in the rule book. This is simply treating your opponent with respect. Do you seriously need a book to tell you how to act? Has rules as written finally come to the point where common courtesy doesn't get factored into a rules interpretation because Adam Troke, Jeremy Vetock and Matt Ward forgot to write the section about it? Do you seriously feel that it's more important that you can secure your right to play below the agreed upon points limit than it is to treat your opponent with respect?


On a forum that discusses the RAW? Yes. Common courtesy has nothing to do with how the rules are written. If I and opponent agreed on a point limit and he decided to bring an army at half that (say 750 pts to a 1500 pt game), well apparently he is cocky enough to think he can still win (and with my rolls he more than likely will as well).

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




battleranch wrote:
If you want to play Black Templar at 750 points you take an Emperors Champion.


If your army is at least 750 points, then yes.

The fact you are 1 point shy doesn't change that you agree to play a 750 point army.


You don't agree to play a 750 point army, you agree to play a 750 point game. There's a difference.

So you can ether play 850 points and have you're Emperors champion, or 650 and not. you can even do 700 points. There are a tonne of solutions to this problem and none of them are as shakey as "technically your army isn't 750 pts" You can avoid the argument entirely.


If I make an army list for a 750 point game and the total comes out to 749, I am not playing a 750 point army. I am playing 749. And the codex specifically states a Black Templar army of AT LEAST 750 points must contain an Emperor's Champion. 749 is less than 750, and does not meet the criteria for the Emperor's Champion to become mandatory.
   
 
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