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Hi folks,
I've been wracking my brain to see how I can get Hit and Run bestowed on a 10 man Wraithguard squad, and as far as I can see I've got nothing in the Eldar codex that lets me do this.

Looking further afield however, I've got my beady eyes on the Tau Commander: If I give him Vectored Retro Thrusters to give him the Hit and Run universal special rule, am I right in thinking that by attaching him to the squad of Wraithguard, they all have Hit and Run?

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Hi folks,
I've been wracking my brain to see how I can get Hit and Run bestowed on a 10 man Wraithguard squad, and as far as I can see I've got nothing in the Eldar codex that lets me do this.

Looking further afield however, I've got my beady eyes on the Tau Commander: If I give him Vectored Retro Thrusters to give him the Hit and Run universal special rule, am I right in thinking that by attaching him to the squad of Wraithguard, they all have Hit and Run?

In 6th, on model needs to have hit&run to give the squad.

Allied Baron is a good choice.

DE Baron or Bharoth (yeah... i know... better just grab baron). If they join the squad, the entire thing has hit and run

I've played against a 10-Wraithguard/Baron/Eldrad deathstar on a couple occasions. Pricey but damn hard to counter.

zephoid wrote:If they join the squad, the entire thing has hit and run

But yes, to the point: all you need is a single model with H&R (in this case Baron), which will confer the rule to the rest of the unit.

Ok thanks guys - though looking into the Tau Commander options more, since the Stimulant Injector gives Feel no Pain to the Model: If I equip this Commander with the following:
1) Special Issue Vectored Retro Thrusters
2) Special Issue Stimulant Injector
3) Hard Wired Drone Controller & 2 Shield Drones
(And lets say I also kit it out with Missile Pod, Plasma, Multi-Tracker and Blacksun Filter)

And hell, let's throw in a Warlock with Conceal...

I end up with a unit that costs 490 pts with:
10 Wraithguard
Tau Commander
Warlock
2 Gun Drones

All with the following:
T 6
5+ Feel No Pain
Hit and Run
5+ Cover Save

Surely not??

FNP is just on the model with the rule.

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Ok thanks guys - though looking into the Tau Commander options more, since the Stimulant Injector gives Feel no Pain to the Model: If I equip this Commander with the following:
1) Special Issue Vectored Retro Thrusters
2) Special Issue Stimulant Injector
3) Hard Wired Drone Controller & 2 Shield Drones
(And lets say I also kit it out with Missile Pod, Plasma, Multi-Tracker and Blacksun Filter)

And hell, let's throw in a Warlock with Conceal...

I end up with a unit that costs 490 pts with:
10 Wraithguard
Tau Commander
Warlock
2 Gun Drones

All with the following:
T 6
5+ Feel No Pain
Hit and Run
5+ Cover Save

Surely not??

As pointed out, FNP only applies to the model.

However, for some real fun add a Farseer with Fortune and an IC with Stealth to the unit and now it's majority T6, Hit and Run, 4+ Cover save, Troop Choice. If playing at 2000+ points you could then take a Wraithseer (assuming your group plays with FW) and give the whole unit FNP...

Whats the difference between the VRT for the Commander giving the unit the Hit and Run universial special rule, and giving the Commander the Stim injector not giving the unit the FNP universal special rule?

 Happyjew wrote:

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Ok thanks guys - though looking into the Tau Commander options more, since the Stimulant Injector gives Feel no Pain to the Model: If I equip this Commander with the following:
1) Special Issue Vectored Retro Thrusters
2) Special Issue Stimulant Injector
3) Hard Wired Drone Controller & 2 Shield Drones
(And lets say I also kit it out with Missile Pod, Plasma, Multi-Tracker and Blacksun Filter)

And hell, let's throw in a Warlock with Conceal...

I end up with a unit that costs 490 pts with:
10 Wraithguard
Tau Commander
Warlock
2 Gun Drones

All with the following:
T 6
5+ Feel No Pain
Hit and Run
5+ Cover Save

Surely not??

As pointed out, FNP only applies to the model.

However, for some real fun add a Farseer with Fortune and an IC with Stealth to the unit and now it's majority T6, Hit and Run, 4+ Cover save, Troop Choice. If playing at 2000+ points you could then take a Wraithseer (assuming your group plays with FW) and give the whole unit FNP...

Where are you getting the 4+ coversave? Does Stealth + Conceal work?

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
Whats the difference between the VRT for the Commander giving the unit the Hit and Run universial special rule, and giving the Commander the Stim injector not giving the unit the FNP universal special rule?

Special rules can be grouped into three groups
Unit special rules - requires every model in the unit to benefit (such as Fleet)
Model special rules - only the model that has the special rule benefits (such as FNP)
Shared special rules - only 1 model in the unit needs to have the special rule for the unit to benefit (such as Stealth).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
Where are you getting the 4+ coversave? Does Stealth + Conceal work?

Conceal gives a static cover save. Stealth improves it by 1.

That being said there is some debate on whether non-Striking Scorpions can benefit from Karandras' Stealth (only IC with the Stealth special rule in C: Eldar).

 Happyjew wrote:


As pointed out, FNP only applies to the model.

However, for some real fun add a Farseer with Fortune and an IC with Stealth to the unit and now it's majority T6, Hit and Run, 4+ Cover save, Troop Choice. If playing at 2000+ points you could then take a Wraithseer (assuming your group plays with FW) and give the whole unit FNP...

Ah, I do have a Wraithseer as a plan B for FNP

But I confess that I'm not clear why the FNP special rule differs from the Hit and Run special rule in terms of applying it to the Wraithguard:
"The Character benefits from the Hit and Run Special rule as detailed in the..."
"The model is subject to the Feel no Pain special rule as detailed in the..."

Is there something in the BRB that specifically differs 'Model' from 'Character' when applying USRs to the unit?

Edit:
Ah, thanks for clarifying the above guys...

 Happyjew wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
Where are you getting the 4+ coversave? Does Stealth + Conceal work?

Conceal gives a static cover save. Stealth improves it by 1.

That being said there is some debate on whether non-Striking Scorpions can benefit from Karandras' Stealth (only IC with the Stealth special rule in C: Eldar).

Ah... maybe I was getting the debates mixed up there (Karandra's Stealth).

Thanks!

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

But I confess that I'm not clear why the FNP special rule differs from the Hit and Run special rule in terms of applying it to the Wraithguard:
"The Character benefits from the Hit and Run Special rule as detailed in the..."
"The model is subject to the Feel no Pain special rule as detailed in the..."

Is there something in the BRB that specifically differs 'Model' from 'Character' when applying USRs to the unit?

In the BRB, Hit and Run says, "A unit that contains at least one model with this SR..."
FnP says, "When a model with this special rules suffers an unsaved Wound..."

You can see where each of these rules fit into Happyjew's categories.

There isnt a debate - Stealth does NOT require all models in the unit to have stealth for the whole unit to benefit. So while non-Striking Scorpions cannot receive the SR "Stealth", they can all benefit from it.

nos, while I agree with you that only 1 model requires Stealth for the whole unit to benefit, there are others (specifically my entire gaming group) who claims because the wording says that the special rule is conferred to any Striking Scorpions unit Karandras joins, other units don't benefit.

Of course with the change in editions, that raises the question about Fuegan's Tank Hunters special rule, and Karandras' Move Through Cover special rule (and Outflank gained via Infiltrate).

Right. The intent on the Phoenix Lords' wording seems clear- that only their aspect can benefit from their powers. The fact that the way these rules work changed in 6th could be deliberate, or could just be an oversight, in which case it's easter egg hunting to ignore the (IMO fairly clear) intent expressed in the PL rules.

The problem is we are taking rules from a 4th edition codex.

In 4th edition, the whole unit had to have Stealth, Move Through Cover, Fearless, Tank Hunters, etc. to gain the benefits. So in 4th edition, only Striking Scorpions ever benefited from Karandras' Stealth. Then in 5th edition the wording for Stealth changed so only 1 model needed it for the unit to benefit. So we are stuck with a rule that is worded a certain way and trying to make it work.

Agreed. I personally wouldn't be comfortable trying to apply the benefit of Stealth from Karandras onto a non-Scorpion unit, just as I wouldn't try to use Logan Grimnar's USR-conveying power to benefit squads not from Codex: Space Wolves. The intent really seems clear. At least to me. YMMV.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Agreed. I personally wouldn't be comfortable trying to apply the benefit of Stealth from Karandras onto a non-Scorpion unit, just as I wouldn't try to use Logan Grimnar's USR-conveying power to benefit squads not from Codex: Space Wolves. The intent really seems clear. At least to me. YMMV.

The problem is, if that was their intent they've had what 5 years to change it? All of 5th edition and all of 6th edition. I don't think the intent is only Scorpion units any longer. Especially with this from 5th edition:

5th ed BRB FAQ wrote:Q: If only some of the models in a unit have the Stealth
special rule, does the whole unit benefit from the +1
cover save? (p76)
A: Yes. In effect the ones with the Stealth special rule
ensure their colleagues also find good places to hide.

I genuinely doubt that they realized that people would still think it was ambigious, after reading the FAQ.

I have no doubt that they think that writing "the ability is conveyed to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins" in the codex, and having the following entry in the FAQ, is sufficiently clear.

Eldar FAQ wrote:Q. As Phoenix Lords are not Exarchs, but independent characters, do their exarch powers (Shadowstrike, Skyleap, etc.) affect units other than Aspect Warriors? (p54)
A. Their powers only affects units of Aspect Warriors.

Note also that the phrasing here is that the power only "affects" units of Aspect Warriors. I would think there's a pretty strong RAW argument to be made that gaining +1 cover save from having an IC in the squad with Stealth, even if the other models don't have Stealth themselves, is still that power affecting them.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I genuinely doubt that they realized that people would still think it was ambigious, after reading the FAQ.

I have no doubt that they think that writing "the ability is conveyed to any unit of Striking Scorpions Karandras joins" in the codex, and having the following entry in the FAQ, is sufficiently clear.

Eldar FAQ wrote:Q. As Phoenix Lords are not Exarchs, but independent characters, do their exarch powers (Shadowstrike, Skyleap, etc.) affect units other than Aspect Warriors? (p54)
A. Their powers only affects units of Aspect Warriors.

The problem is that only applies to their Exarch powers. Stealth is not an Exarch powers (nor is Baharroth's Hit & Run). That being said I would never play that the whole unit (excepting Aspect Warriors) would benefit from Fuegan's Tank Hunters or Karandras' Move Through Cover.

 Happyjew wrote:
The problem is we are taking rules from a 4th edition codex.

In 4th edition, the whole unit had to have Stealth, Move Through Cover, Fearless, Tank Hunters, etc. to gain the benefits. So in 4th edition, only Striking Scorpions ever benefited from Karandras' Stealth. Then in 5th edition the wording for Stealth changed so only 1 model needed it for the unit to benefit. So we are stuck with a rule that is worded a certain way and trying to make it work.

yup,

I really hope the fact that GW has been updating faq's more,

and releasing codexes at a decent rate,

is a sign of things to come,

No one here seems to care about the fact of having the Baron with the squad will give the squad both H&R and Stealth so I though I would point it out (I know someone did talk about the Baron before but not about stealth)

I would definitely take the Baron over the Tau Commander. A sucessful Hit and Run is based off of Init, which the Tau is lacking. Tried this before in the same situation with a Wrathguard force and never could get that H&R off. 9-(

You use the highest Init in the unit - so who cares if the Tau Commander's Init is low.

rigeld2 wrote:
You use the highest Init in the unit - so who cares if the Tau Commander's Init is low.

Hmm thats not how my meta called it. I will have to check the BRB when I get home from work.

They called it wrong - it is now highest I in the unit, same assweeping advance

Take the baron. NO ONE DOES IT BETTER. He let's you re-roll that 1 in 6 chance of failing your hit and run AND let's you re-roll the distance result. He has a 2++ which you can make re-rollable to tank with AND he himself is a jump unit so he is easier to re-position around your wraithstar to be the closest model to incoming fire/charges. If you run a farseer of some sort in the star(durrr), you have 3 characters with invuls ranging from best in game to 50-50 with re-roll to tank that one turn of assault before you just teleport up to 18 inches over the enemy and shoot them to death the next turn

The Baron doesn't get you Broadsides.

I'll take my my 2++ re-roll tank for 105 (: