Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Ive had some time with the book and besides the warpstorm table and random wargear and abilities the book will suffer mostly from:

-T3 dies very quickly
-No frag grenades
-Skull cannons suck, open topped is pretty much a death sentence, taking multiples is just a waste
-standard anti horde tactics work very well since they lack any form of long ranged shooting.
-MCs are super expensive, one is easy to deal with, the more you take the less easy to kill troops you have.
-5++ on an MC isnt very good.
-Crushers, flamers, chariots are a joke
-Anti psyker gear really hurts alot of the good options

Have you tried actually playing a game with the army before doom-and-glooming it?
- T3 at face value is easy to kill, but those infantry units are either much faster, (Slaanesh w/extra run distance, Khorne w/6"+D6" charge banner), or else more resiliant through some save re-rolls. Plus they come in huge units.
So yes, 10/T3 chumpies will die fast. Only an absolute dumb*** is going to take their units at minimum size!

- No grenades? So what, either bring bigger units to absorb a few early casulties or else charge in with multiple units. Orks somehow still manage desipte being initiative crap, and T4/6+ is about as resiliant as T3/5++.

- Skullcannons have a 36" range. Again, unless you're just an idiot and don't know how to play the army, your cannons will be largely ignored in favour of the multiple cavalry/beast/jump/jetbike units you're shoving down your opponent's throat.
And even if your opponent chooses to shoot that av12 chariot? Good for them, they're ignoring the other 'X/Y/Z' threats that are likely going to do far more damage anyways.

- The funny thing about "standard anti-horde tactics" I find is that most people still completely ignore those relevent upgrades in favour of the new Plasma-spam or age-old Melta-spam. Meltaguns will not get more than 1 turn of shooting against our main hitters btw.
And no decent ranged shooting? Sure, we've got nothing beyond Horrors + Tzeentch Heralds, Screamers with their slash attacks, Skullcannons, Defilers, Burning Chariot (once it gets FAQ'd)... We may not be a gunline, but you're silly to think Daemons are completely impotent at range.

- Our MC's are expensive yes, but they're also pretty godly too. A GUO can become pretty much unkillable. A Keeper doesn't even really need upgrades to be honest. For an additional 30pts on top of it's base cost a Lord of Change can be made into a decent combat monster while a 'Thirster comes standard with weapons & a 3+ save.
Princes are good and flexible, but will pay more to come close to what a Greater can achive.
They're hardly 'bad' choices, they simply aren't instant face-beaters who can solo half an army like they have been in the past.

- Don't EVER doubt a Daemon player's ability to roll a disgusting number of 5++ saves...
Plus, every single MC can take a pair of Greater Rewards which give you some very decent protection. Just don't be a dumb*** and run your MC's into full squads of Grey Knights...

- Bloodcrushers are much, much better than before actually. First off, they're CAVALRY! So I honestly hope you can shoot down the entire unit in one turn, because it will be in your face on turn 2. They also can deploy normally, so there's no more sitting around with twiddling of thumbs waiting to charge. They also can now take a 10pts ap2 Master-crafted CCW on the Bloodhunter, who will demolish any silly little power fist Sergeant you through him up against. Again just play intelligently with them and they'll rape face. (ie: don't charge 2+ saves w/S8 attacks!)
Flamers are simply no longer instant 'erase everything' buttons. Hitting any non-T5+ unit with 9 S4/ap4 templates will still erase most things however. Just don't expect 3 of them to auto-kill a full squad of Plague Marines or such anymore. They're balanced now, so why the hate?!
Chariots in a vacuum look pretty bad. Skullcannons backing up masses of Khorne Hounds w/mounted Heralds, a unit or two of 'Crushers, a Grinder and hordes of Bloodletters will be scary. (what do you honestly shoot first?!) A Divination Tzeentch Herald on chariot is an interesting option since he can zip about as a fast skimmer and provide buffs where needed, while being protected by a 4++ jink/re-rolling 1's.

- The only really awful anti-psychic gear to be worried about are Eldar Runes, (which will likely get re-written later this year with their new codex), SW's, (and you have plenty of good options for hunting down those Rune Priests), and Grey Knights (who are borderline broken against Daemons anyways!)
And with Ld10, Tzeentch is less afraid of Eldar Runes than the others since 10 is the average roll on 3D6 - so it's still worth risking 1 chumpie for your Horror units to try and get their shooting off.


Daemons don't have any blaitent OMG must spamz!!1!11! options, but outside of the Burning Chariot issue which needs FAQ'ing, there aren't really any terd choices either.
The randomness can be controlled somewhat - especially the Warpstorm table, and the ability to tailor Rewards to opponents at the start of the game is pretty freaking amazing!

Daemons aren't a spam-happy 5th edition book. They're a balanced 6th edition book with plenty of good flavour.

After my few games of daemons a few things popped out:

Big units of 20 Troop are best

Slaanesh rending is great

Bloodthirster is beast, presumably other Greater D are too.

T3 on bloodletters is a terrible kick in the teeth, even with the points drop. But taking 20 for a similar price that 10 used to cost eases this a little.

Horrors are crap, we used to be best friends but we're not gonna be hangin out very often anymore. 4D6 hits sounds great but not when you kill maybe... 3 Marines? if you're lucky? Not worth giving them feel no pain. If you are against armour 4+ then maybe if you take a herald with divination they might be worthwhile but in general... narp!

Cover is absolutely vital! More so than before, but with T3 and with a 5++ you really want it!

Flamers are still decent but not in 3's I think. Against armour 4+ or worse small units might be ok but with better armour guys you'd want to be dropping plenty of templates on them

Warp Storms been bad for me, rolled low much more than high but thats just luck. Khornes 9 killed a whole unit of ripper swarms today (sure its only swarms but it woulda taken a turn or two otherwise). Then again I also lost about 2 unit characters in my first few games sooo... The warlord reroll trait is surprisingly useful.

Bloodcrushers die faster but are so so quick, because cavalry are so uncommon I think people are caught off guard when suddenly a wall of khorne cavalry are up in yo' business.

The reward tables are lovely. The greater one is pretty much ALWAYS applicable, I take 2 Gr. on my Thirster when I wheel him out. The lesser table has considerable less useful results (it IS lesser), but you can always take an Ap2 weapon as people point out! The exalted table is probably less useful than greater but also probably more fun! The portalglyph is not so good for kill points, but in Capture points, you spawn a unit for capture purposes reasonably consistently. And also since of the way you choose your artefacts you do not have to commit to a portalglyph if kill points rolls up.

The low LD on psykers is very annoying but ah well. Slaanesh magic looks best, though I have little nurgle models to give it a proper try out. The 1 power is wonderful, no counterattack or overwatch and -5 I (I think), thats wonderful, and a great big rude gesture to SW

All in all I am mostly happy with the new book but there are some units made almost unusable in it, Horrors for certain, possibly flamers unless you commit to a larger unit (I played 5 against eldar and they did decent), bloodletters are not useless, just less useful! Greater daemons seem to actually be what you expect them to be, I love the 7+D3 attacks on a chargin bloodthirster!

It seems to focus on getting in your enemies face as fast as possible and this is very possible with all the beasts and cavalry. Once I get my hands on my seekers I will see how seekers and bloodcrushers work together! And gonna try more FMCs!

Experiment 626 wrote:


Have you tried actually playing a game with the army before doom-and-glooming it?
- T3 at face value is easy to kill, but those infantry units are either much faster, (Slaanesh w/extra run distance, Khorne w/6"+D6" charge banner), or else more resiliant through some save re-rolls. Plus they come in huge units.
So yes, 10/T3 chumpies will die fast. Only an absolute dumb*** is going to take their units at minimum size!

- No grenades? So what, either bring bigger units to absorb a few early casulties or else charge in with multiple units. Orks somehow still manage desipte being initiative crap, and T4/6+ is about as resiliant as T3/5++.

- Skullcannons have a 36" range. Again, unless you're just an idiot and don't know how to play the army, your cannons will be largely ignored in favour of the multiple cavalry/beast/jump/jetbike units you're shoving down your opponent's throat.
And even if your opponent chooses to shoot that av12 chariot? Good for them, they're ignoring the other 'X/Y/Z' threats that are likely going to do far more damage anyways.

- The funny thing about "standard anti-horde tactics" I find is that most people still completely ignore those relevent upgrades in favour of the new Plasma-spam or age-old Melta-spam. Meltaguns will not get more than 1 turn of shooting against our main hitters btw.
And no decent ranged shooting? Sure, we've got nothing beyond Horrors + Tzeentch Heralds, Screamers with their slash attacks, Skullcannons, Defilers, Burning Chariot (once it gets FAQ'd)... We may not be a gunline, but you're silly to think Daemons are completely impotent at range.

- Our MC's are expensive yes, but they're also pretty godly too. A GUO can become pretty much unkillable. A Keeper doesn't even really need upgrades to be honest. For an additional 30pts on top of it's base cost a Lord of Change can be made into a decent combat monster while a 'Thirster comes standard with weapons & a 3+ save.
Princes are good and flexible, but will pay more to come close to what a Greater can achive.
They're hardly 'bad' choices, they simply aren't instant face-beaters who can solo half an army like they have been in the past.

- Don't EVER doubt a Daemon player's ability to roll a disgusting number of 5++ saves...
Plus, every single MC can take a pair of Greater Rewards which give you some very decent protection. Just don't be a dumb*** and run your MC's into full squads of Grey Knights...

- Bloodcrushers are much, much better than before actually. First off, they're CAVALRY! So I honestly hope you can shoot down the entire unit in one turn, because it will be in your face on turn 2. They also can deploy normally, so there's no more sitting around with twiddling of thumbs waiting to charge. They also can now take a 10pts ap2 Master-crafted CCW on the Bloodhunter, who will demolish any silly little power fist Sergeant you through him up against. Again just play intelligently with them and they'll rape face. (ie: don't charge 2+ saves w/S8 attacks!)
Flamers are simply no longer instant 'erase everything' buttons. Hitting any non-T5+ unit with 9 S4/ap4 templates will still erase most things however. Just don't expect 3 of them to auto-kill a full squad of Plague Marines or such anymore. They're balanced now, so why the hate?!
Chariots in a vacuum look pretty bad. Skullcannons backing up masses of Khorne Hounds w/mounted Heralds, a unit or two of 'Crushers, a Grinder and hordes of Bloodletters will be scary. (what do you honestly shoot first?!) A Divination Tzeentch Herald on chariot is an interesting option since he can zip about as a fast skimmer and provide buffs where needed, while being protected by a 4++ jink/re-rolling 1's.

- The only really awful anti-psychic gear to be worried about are Eldar Runes, (which will likely get re-written later this year with their new codex), SW's, (and you have plenty of good options for hunting down those Rune Priests), and Grey Knights (who are borderline broken against Daemons anyways!)
And with Ld10, Tzeentch is less afraid of Eldar Runes than the others since 10 is the average roll on 3D6 - so it's still worth risking 1 chumpie for your Horror units to try and get their shooting off.


Daemons don't have any blaitent OMG must spamz!!1!11! options, but outside of the Burning Chariot issue which needs FAQ'ing, there aren't really any terd choices either.
The randomness can be controlled somewhat - especially the Warpstorm table, and the ability to tailor Rewards to opponents at the start of the game is pretty freaking amazing!

Daemons aren't a spam-happy 5th edition book. They're a balanced 6th edition book with plenty of good flavour.

You really need to relax dude, you fly off the handle when anyone says GW or something they make is bad. The thread is called "are daemons competitive?" and the I just pointed out what I thought was bad using my experience from playing for years. If you're going to go all fluff bunny and "everything is awesome" then why the hell are you posting in a "is it competitive?" thread. Not to mention you completely glazed over the units that I said were good. Never did I say it couldnt win, its just not tops. There are such thing as bad choices in a book that have no purpose.

Horrors really need Herald support. Prescience is all but mandetory, while rolling up Misfortune and hitting your intended target with it, well, your opponent can pretty much just remove that unit should they fail their deny rolls!
I had 18 Horrors + Herald (without Prescience since I blew my Ld10 test! >.< ), simply erase an entire Deathwing command squad in one turn. 4D6/S6 + 3D6/S6 + 2D6/S4 auto-hits hurts no matter who you are.

Another good idea for your Horrors is to simply max-out Lesser Rewards on both the unit's Iridescent Horror & attached Herald. Gives you a pretty solid shot at generating at least one, if not two 'Corrosive Breath' results.
That first unit that then tries to assault you gets nailed with 2D3/S5 auto-hits from Wall of Death and then takes an additional 2D6/S4 auto-hits from the Blasted Standard. Should give you pretty solid odds of stopping that first assault and give you another turn of Flickering Fire fun!

I'm also wanting to try a unit of 18 led by a Herald w/Greater Locus of Change for the D6 strength. Sure it can backfire with a paltry S1 or 2 result, but imagine suddenly facing S6 Pinkies! More for laughs than 'uber competitiveness, but still could be a nasty surprise for what your opponent initially thought would be an easy assault victory!

Experiment 626 wrote:
Horrors really need Herald support. Prescience is all but mandetory, while rolling up Misfortune and hitting your intended target with it, well, your opponent can pretty much just remove that unit should they fail their deny rolls!
I had 18 Horrors + Herald (without Prescience since I blew my Ld10 test! >.< ), simply erase an entire Deathwing command squad in one turn. 4D6/S6 + 3D6/S6 + 2D6/S4 auto-hits hurts no matter who you are.

So, the point total of what you used was... and it killed?

Honestly, pink horror shooting is not good. Okay, so if you stick multiple debuffs on an opponent, any volume of fire will beat it. But when you do the math, Pink horrors have worse shooting than firewarriors (a similar craptacular assault unit that dies if looked at and is intended just to shoot stuff, at a very similar point-per-model cost). And firewarriors aren't even considered competitive. Plus, Pinkies need to pass a Ld test and a Deny the witch as well. And the firewarriors double in effectiveness at 15", and outrange the pink horrors as well.

Plus, as a psychic power, you're pretty much unable to overwatch, right? So you lose that too.

Sure, you can spend more points and get more additional models that can stack more additional debuffs on enemies or buffs on the horrors and you will actually kill something once in a while. But to say their shooting is good is an overstatement. It's not, your empirical story not withstanding.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Have you tried actually playing a game with the army before doom-and-glooming it?
- T3 at face value is easy to kill, but those infantry units are either much faster, (Slaanesh w/extra run distance, Khorne w/6"+D6" charge banner), or else more resiliant through some save re-rolls. Plus they come in huge units.
So yes, 10/T3 chumpies will die fast. Only an absolute dumb*** is going to take their units at minimum size!

- No grenades? So what, either bring bigger units to absorb a few early casulties or else charge in with multiple units. Orks somehow still manage desipte being initiative crap, and T4/6+ is about as resiliant as T3/5++.

- Skullcannons have a 36" range. Again, unless you're just an idiot and don't know how to play the army, your cannons will be largely ignored in favour of the multiple cavalry/beast/jump/jetbike units you're shoving down your opponent's throat.
And even if your opponent chooses to shoot that av12 chariot? Good for them, they're ignoring the other 'X/Y/Z' threats that are likely going to do far more damage anyways.

- The funny thing about "standard anti-horde tactics" I find is that most people still completely ignore those relevent upgrades in favour of the new Plasma-spam or age-old Melta-spam. Meltaguns will not get more than 1 turn of shooting against our main hitters btw.
And no decent ranged shooting? Sure, we've got nothing beyond Horrors + Tzeentch Heralds, Screamers with their slash attacks, Skullcannons, Defilers, Burning Chariot (once it gets FAQ'd)... We may not be a gunline, but you're silly to think Daemons are completely impotent at range.

- Our MC's are expensive yes, but they're also pretty godly too. A GUO can become pretty much unkillable. A Keeper doesn't even really need upgrades to be honest. For an additional 30pts on top of it's base cost a Lord of Change can be made into a decent combat monster while a 'Thirster comes standard with weapons & a 3+ save.
Princes are good and flexible, but will pay more to come close to what a Greater can achive.
They're hardly 'bad' choices, they simply aren't instant face-beaters who can solo half an army like they have been in the past.

- Don't EVER doubt a Daemon player's ability to roll a disgusting number of 5++ saves...
Plus, every single MC can take a pair of Greater Rewards which give you some very decent protection. Just don't be a dumb*** and run your MC's into full squads of Grey Knights...

- Bloodcrushers are much, much better than before actually. First off, they're CAVALRY! So I honestly hope you can shoot down the entire unit in one turn, because it will be in your face on turn 2. They also can deploy normally, so there's no more sitting around with twiddling of thumbs waiting to charge. They also can now take a 10pts ap2 Master-crafted CCW on the Bloodhunter, who will demolish any silly little power fist Sergeant you through him up against. Again just play intelligently with them and they'll rape face. (ie: don't charge 2+ saves w/S8 attacks!)
Flamers are simply no longer instant 'erase everything' buttons. Hitting any non-T5+ unit with 9 S4/ap4 templates will still erase most things however. Just don't expect 3 of them to auto-kill a full squad of Plague Marines or such anymore. They're balanced now, so why the hate?!
Chariots in a vacuum look pretty bad. Skullcannons backing up masses of Khorne Hounds w/mounted Heralds, a unit or two of 'Crushers, a Grinder and hordes of Bloodletters will be scary. (what do you honestly shoot first?!) A Divination Tzeentch Herald on chariot is an interesting option since he can zip about as a fast skimmer and provide buffs where needed, while being protected by a 4++ jink/re-rolling 1's.

- The only really awful anti-psychic gear to be worried about are Eldar Runes, (which will likely get re-written later this year with their new codex), SW's, (and you have plenty of good options for hunting down those Rune Priests), and Grey Knights (who are borderline broken against Daemons anyways!)
And with Ld10, Tzeentch is less afraid of Eldar Runes than the others since 10 is the average roll on 3D6 - so it's still worth risking 1 chumpie for your Horror units to try and get their shooting off.


Daemons don't have any blaitent OMG must spamz!!1!11! options, but outside of the Burning Chariot issue which needs FAQ'ing, there aren't really any terd choices either.
The randomness can be controlled somewhat - especially the Warpstorm table, and the ability to tailor Rewards to opponents at the start of the game is pretty freaking amazing!

Daemons aren't a spam-happy 5th edition book. They're a balanced 6th edition book with plenty of good flavour.

You really need to relax dude, you fly off the handle when anyone says GW or something they make is bad. The thread is called "are daemons competitive?" and the I just pointed out what I thought was bad using my experience from playing for years. If you're going to go all fluff bunny and "everything is awesome" then why the hell are you posting in a "is it competitive?" thread. Not to mention you completely glazed over the units that I said were good. Never did I say it couldnt win, its just not tops. There are such thing as bad choices in a book that have no purpose.

You are in NO position to tell someone to calm down after you have been decrying a codex a failure when it hasn't even been out for a week. And since you have provided no counter-points to his arguments, I'm just gonna assume you're just mad you got owned.

 Redbeard wrote:

So, the point total of what you used was... and it killed?

Honestly, pink horror shooting is not good. Okay, so if you stick multiple debuffs on an opponent, any volume of fire will beat it. But when you do the math, Pink horrors have worse shooting than firewarriors (a similar craptacular assault unit that dies if looked at and is intended just to shoot stuff, at a very similar point-per-model cost). And firewarriors aren't even considered competitive. Plus, Pinkies need to pass a Ld test and a Deny the witch as well. And the firewarriors double in effectiveness at 15", and outrange the pink horrors as well.

Plus, as a psychic power, you're pretty much unable to overwatch, right? So you lose that too.

Sure, you can spend more points and get more additional models that can stack more additional debuffs on enemies or buffs on the horrors and you will actually kill something once in a while. But to say their shooting is good is an overstatement. It's not, your empirical story not withstanding.

The total unit combo cost me 337pts. (18 Pinkies w/Iridescent Horror + Lesser Reward, Blasted Standard + Herald w/Lv3, Greater Reward, Locus of Conjuration)
The Deathwing Command Squad was at least 300pts. (I can't remember entirely what upgrades they had - but there was a cyclone launcher, banner, champion, a pair of hammer/shields)

So yes, it was pretty much an even trade.
And like I said, I had failed my Prescience test. If I'd had my re-rolls to-hit, then Belial would have very likely died as well! Instead he suffered a wound and gained a 6+ FnP that had no impact on the rest of the game. (he actually killed 90pts worth of Horrors and then got bogged down in the most epic-fail challenge of all time against my 3++ Tzeentch CSM Sorcerer... 8 rounds of nothing but whiffles vs passed invulns! )
That Horror unit that killed the command squad then went on to kill 3 more Deathwing Termies + 1 Deathwing Knight before being wiped out in combat. So overall, they killed more than their pts in terms of total models killed.

And yes, with *just* the psychic powers, there's no Overwatch. So if you want it, then just stick to Lesser Rewards since rolling a 3 on the chart gives you a S5/ap5 template weapon. Then you can save-up your Blasted Standard and use it as part of the Overwatch reaction.

Unless you're shooting at an actual psyker or within range of a runice weapon, or going against an Farseer, DtW is hardly an issue. (6+ is never to be relied upon - again, my buddy failed every single Deny roll the entire game since his Libby was stuck fighting Fiends & then Bloodletters)



Horrors may not be the single greatest shooters out there. They're certainly not worthless crap like alot of people are trying to suggest.

And the question of a codex being competitive or not isn't simply "is this book top dog/near top dog?" That's a pretty simplistic view.
The question should be, are Daemons able to win games with a variety of playstyles, or they stuck being shoehorned into 1 or 2 'powerbuilds' to keep pace?
The answer is, yes, Daemons have lots of potential and can compete against most any army using a variety of builds. They may not roflstomp like GK's or SW's did in 5th, or Necrons currently are in 6th, but they're nowhere near as bad as their old rules or Tyranids in 5th!

Seriously, if you guys are wanting to whine about Daemons, go look at how awful the Fantasy book turned out! Now there's a case for checklisting "ZOMG Amazing!" vs "Why-oh-why does this even exist?"

Comparing horrors to fire warriors and ignoring fearless/inv/not losing firepower to casualties. Is slightly silly.

Pink Horrors are not spectacular, but they are certainly useful. They perform, GASP, exactly as you'd expect a unit that costs as little as they do to perform. Not game winners/breakers, but certainly worth the trouble to put out on the table. Given that they can reroll save rolls of 1, it makes them a bit more durable. They are also very good at taking out light armour (they destroyed a ghost ark and put a hull point on an annihilation barge in the game I played this week).

Has anyone considered taking them in min sized units and taking some of the more powerful tzeentch powers such as bolt of change to use as tank hunters? Its situational at best, but an intriguing option I might try out (I have 30 of the dang things after all).

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Pink Horrors are not spectacular, but they are certainly useful. They perform, GASP, exactly as you'd expect a unit that costs as little as they do to perform. Not game winners/breakers, but certainly worth the trouble to put out on the table. Given that they can reroll save rolls of 1, it makes them a bit more durable. They are also very good at taking out light armour (they destroyed a ghost ark and put a hull point on an annihilation barge in the game I played this week).

Has anyone considered taking them in min sized units and taking some of the more powerful tzeentch powers such as bolt of change to use as tank hunters? Its situational at best, but an intriguing option I might try out (I have 30 of the dang things after all).

I've considering that since in a Tzeentch-based Daemonzilla list I'm coming up with I'm only bringing in 2x10 Horrors just to fulfill FoC requirements, so they might as well be able to pack a punch.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Pink Horrors are not spectacular, but they are certainly useful. They perform, GASP, exactly as you'd expect a unit that costs as little as they do to perform. Not game winners/breakers, but certainly worth the trouble to put out on the table. Given that they can reroll save rolls of 1, it makes them a bit more durable. They are also very good at taking out light armour (they destroyed a ghost ark and put a hull point on an annihilation barge in the game I played this week).

Has anyone considered taking them in min sized units and taking some of the more powerful tzeentch powers such as bolt of change to use as tank hunters? Its situational at best, but an intriguing option I might try out (I have 30 of the dang things after all).

I've been thinking instead of trying for the other Tzeentch powers on a chariot Herald as he gains insane mobility and can be quite resilient with a 4++ jink/re-rolling 1's.
Since Bolt is a Beam type power, it's unaffected by the snap-shot rule. Just line it up and blow gak up! Get him lined-up facing down the opponent's flank, and you could do some serious damage to rear line units like artillery/heavy weapons or else hit vehicles on their weaker flanks.

Sure you can do similar on a Disc, but hey, the chariot looks way cooler and has some added potential for throwing into combat with small squads due to its multiple HoW hits + Herald attacks.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Pink Horrors are not spectacular, but they are certainly useful. They perform, GASP, exactly as you'd expect a unit that costs as little as they do to perform. Not game winners/breakers, but certainly worth the trouble to put out on the table. Given that they can reroll save rolls of 1, it makes them a bit more durable. They are also very good at taking out light armour (they destroyed a ghost ark and put a hull point on an annihilation barge in the game I played this week).

Has anyone considered taking them in min sized units and taking some of the more powerful tzeentch powers such as bolt of change to use as tank hunters? Its situational at best, but an intriguing option I might try out (I have 30 of the dang things after all).

I've considering that since in a Tzeentch-based Daemonzilla list I'm coming up with I'm only bringing in 2x10 Horrors just to fulfill FoC requirements, so they might as well be able to pack a punch.

I'm actually expecting that most "competitive" (I only say that because I view competitive as being more likely to win, I think competitive 40k is ridiculous) Chaos Daemon lists are going to be pretty sparse on the troops side except for Slaanesh or Nurgle.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Pink Horrors are not spectacular, but they are certainly useful. They perform, GASP, exactly as you'd expect a unit that costs as little as they do to perform. Not game winners/breakers, but certainly worth the trouble to put out on the table. Given that they can reroll save rolls of 1, it makes them a bit more durable. They are also very good at taking out light armour (they destroyed a ghost ark and put a hull point on an annihilation barge in the game I played this week).

Has anyone considered taking them in min sized units and taking some of the more powerful tzeentch powers such as bolt of change to use as tank hunters? Its situational at best, but an intriguing option I might try out (I have 30 of the dang things after all).

I've considering that since in a Tzeentch-based Daemonzilla list I'm coming up with I'm only bringing in 2x10 Horrors just to fulfill FoC requirements, so they might as well be able to pack a punch.

I'm actually expecting that most "competitive" (I only say that because I view competitive as being more likely to win, I think competitive 40k is ridiculous) Chaos Daemon lists are going to be pretty sparse on the troops side except for Slaanesh or Nurgle.

Bloodletters are now good for their points. Horrors are really the only iffy troop choice this edition...

An Internet cookie to the first person who outflanks Nurglings!

Seriously though, they could become really useful as an early game fire screen.

Lilrys wrote:Comparing horrors to fire warriors and ignoring fearless/inv/not losing firepower to casualties. Is slightly silly.

Horrors most certainly do lose firepower to casualties. As you lose horrors, you lose warp charge, as you lose warp charge, your primaris power does less, or if you had the 2 charge power, you may lose all your firepower completely.

You can always pick something that's different between two units, that doesn't mean comparisons are silly. So Firewarriors don't have inv saves, they've got a better save against small arms, and can use cover to get a 5+ vs. big guns. They may not be fearless, but they double their damage output within 15". Horrors can't use a transport. Everything horrors shoot at have a flat 6+ save to ignore ALL damage.

The point is, as a shooty unit, they're not putting out as much shooty as another shooty unit in the game that's widely considered to be underpowered. If you're not doing as much as the underpowered unit, maybe you're not that hot.

I'm really not loving design philosophy of "hey, we made this worse, but it's also cheap, so that's ok!" I haven't gotten a chance to try out the new Horrors yet, so I'm sure they're not that bad, but it just seems a little disheartening that on average, a 20-man squad is only putting out 14 shots.

I really can't wait to throw down the new Lord of Change, that thing is going to be a beatstick and a support powerhouse slinging Divination around at the same time. The sheer amount of Divination that's gonna be be available is ridiculous, hopefully between the LoC and three Heralds, I can get one or two of the 4++ powers. Those combined with a Grimoire of True Names can help boost the durability of the army pretty well.

I've shelved my Daemon Army. All 225 models. I'll play my Nids, Orks, and IG for my horde army as they to me are far superior in what they are designed for.

The 6th ED game mechanics makes the entire game process slower than 5th ED. The New codex involves more randomness and more charting to cause the game to go even slower. Maybe I'll keep 125 models in my display case. But that's it. Good luck with your army. Maybe it will be fun for you, but right now it is not fun for me to run an army in a set of rules and game mechanics that makes the game for me to go slower.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:


Have you tried actually playing a game with the army before doom-and-glooming it?
- T3 at face value is easy to kill, but those infantry units are either much faster, (Slaanesh w/extra run distance, Khorne w/6"+D6" charge banner), or else more resiliant through some save re-rolls. Plus they come in huge units.
So yes, 10/T3 chumpies will die fast. Only an absolute dumb*** is going to take their units at minimum size!

- No grenades? So what, either bring bigger units to absorb a few early casulties or else charge in with multiple units. Orks somehow still manage desipte being initiative crap, and T4/6+ is about as resiliant as T3/5++.

- Skullcannons have a 36" range. Again, unless you're just an idiot and don't know how to play the army, your cannons will be largely ignored in favour of the multiple cavalry/beast/jump/jetbike units you're shoving down your opponent's throat.
And even if your opponent chooses to shoot that av12 chariot? Good for them, they're ignoring the other 'X/Y/Z' threats that are likely going to do far more damage anyways.

- The funny thing about "standard anti-horde tactics" I find is that most people still completely ignore those relevent upgrades in favour of the new Plasma-spam or age-old Melta-spam. Meltaguns will not get more than 1 turn of shooting against our main hitters btw.
And no decent ranged shooting? Sure, we've got nothing beyond Horrors + Tzeentch Heralds, Screamers with their slash attacks, Skullcannons, Defilers, Burning Chariot (once it gets FAQ'd)... We may not be a gunline, but you're silly to think Daemons are completely impotent at range.

- Our MC's are expensive yes, but they're also pretty godly too. A GUO can become pretty much unkillable. A Keeper doesn't even really need upgrades to be honest. For an additional 30pts on top of it's base cost a Lord of Change can be made into a decent combat monster while a 'Thirster comes standard with weapons & a 3+ save.
Princes are good and flexible, but will pay more to come close to what a Greater can achive.
They're hardly 'bad' choices, they simply aren't instant face-beaters who can solo half an army like they have been in the past.

- Don't EVER doubt a Daemon player's ability to roll a disgusting number of 5++ saves...
Plus, every single MC can take a pair of Greater Rewards which give you some very decent protection. Just don't be a dumb*** and run your MC's into full squads of Grey Knights...

- Bloodcrushers are much, much better than before actually. First off, they're CAVALRY! So I honestly hope you can shoot down the entire unit in one turn, because it will be in your face on turn 2. They also can deploy normally, so there's no more sitting around with twiddling of thumbs waiting to charge. They also can now take a 10pts ap2 Master-crafted CCW on the Bloodhunter, who will demolish any silly little power fist Sergeant you through him up against. Again just play intelligently with them and they'll rape face. (ie: don't charge 2+ saves w/S8 attacks!)
Flamers are simply no longer instant 'erase everything' buttons. Hitting any non-T5+ unit with 9 S4/ap4 templates will still erase most things however. Just don't expect 3 of them to auto-kill a full squad of Plague Marines or such anymore. They're balanced now, so why the hate?!
Chariots in a vacuum look pretty bad. Skullcannons backing up masses of Khorne Hounds w/mounted Heralds, a unit or two of 'Crushers, a Grinder and hordes of Bloodletters will be scary. (what do you honestly shoot first?!) A Divination Tzeentch Herald on chariot is an interesting option since he can zip about as a fast skimmer and provide buffs where needed, while being protected by a 4++ jink/re-rolling 1's.

- The only really awful anti-psychic gear to be worried about are Eldar Runes, (which will likely get re-written later this year with their new codex), SW's, (and you have plenty of good options for hunting down those Rune Priests), and Grey Knights (who are borderline broken against Daemons anyways!)
And with Ld10, Tzeentch is less afraid of Eldar Runes than the others since 10 is the average roll on 3D6 - so it's still worth risking 1 chumpie for your Horror units to try and get their shooting off.


Daemons don't have any blaitent OMG must spamz!!1!11! options, but outside of the Burning Chariot issue which needs FAQ'ing, there aren't really any terd choices either.
The randomness can be controlled somewhat - especially the Warpstorm table, and the ability to tailor Rewards to opponents at the start of the game is pretty freaking amazing!

Daemons aren't a spam-happy 5th edition book. They're a balanced 6th edition book with plenty of good flavour.

You really need to relax dude, you fly off the handle when anyone says GW or something they make is bad. The thread is called "are daemons competitive?" and the I just pointed out what I thought was bad using my experience from playing for years. If you're going to go all fluff bunny and "everything is awesome" then why the hell are you posting in a "is it competitive?" thread. Not to mention you completely glazed over the units that I said were good. Never did I say it couldnt win, its just not tops. There are such thing as bad choices in a book that have no purpose.

You are in NO position to tell someone to calm down after you have been decrying a codex a failure when it hasn't even been out for a week. And since you have provided no counter-points to his arguments, I'm just gonna assume you're just mad you got owned.

Not a failure. it has glaring weaknesses and some screwy mechanics, and I did so with a calm demeanour.

I offer no counter points because his list consists of a high amount of "maybe" "if" "could" "probably" which show how competitively inclined he is, again its a thread about how competitive it is, not if it cant beat on noobs and average generals. Experiment262 (and you apparently) have a problem reading tone, I pointed out potential flaws in the army and it probably isnt top teir from my POV using years of experience and he countered it with things that dont work in game. "Anti green tide tactics dont work because I have meltaguns" "crushers are better because they are calvary" "skull cannons are totally fine", Its pointless to debate with people that cant accept things arent good. Pointing out his flawed tactical knowledge is a waste of my time because its not going to suddenly make him understand, its a pointless endeavour to argue with someone when you already know what they are going to say. I call "BS" on what I think is a problem being either a game mechanic/rule or the ethics of GW, Experiment262 flips his lid nearly every time I do and writes overly agressive posts as if Im yelling at him. I'm sure I could point out how people dont use aegis lines and LOS properly and he'd lose his mind.

Reality is, daemons suffer from marine tax (no grenades) like many other books have shown, will suffer massively from speed bumping and anti horde tactics. Their MCs are very expensive for only a 5++, thats 8-9 wounds, 15 if they have 3+ armour and a 200-300pt price tag. It has issues with fiiting in the toys and still having enough troops. Losing combat isnt an option for this book, its essentially a different version of "no rethreat" which Im sure many of you can remember can murder units. Its like nids in 5th (certianly feels like the same arguements) they can win but because of the effort involved you wont see them as much as the armies that dont have self damaging rules and consistent results.


EDIT: Also I said I liked some of the units, but I dont see the posts agreeing about the potentially awesomeness of that.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
I've shelved my Daemon Army. All 225 models. I'll play my Nids, Orks, and IG for my horde army as they to me are far superior in what they are designed for.

The 6th ED game mechanics makes the entire game process slower than 5th ED. The New codex involves more randomness and more charting to cause the game to go even slower. Maybe I'll keep 125 models in my display case. But that's it. Good luck with your army. Maybe it will be fun for you, but right now it is not fun for me to run an army in a set of rules and game mechanics that makes the game for me to go slower.

Spoken like someone who hasn't actually played using the new codex. The "it's gonna make the game drag" nonsense really needs to stop. My first game with that army (mind you, not just the first game with the codex, but with the entire army!), we managed to get through 7 turns at 1500 points in about 3 hours. The Warp Storm table added a whole 90 seconds to the process. The biggest drag was in the pre-game when I had to roll up all of the rewards and psychic powers (added about ten minutes because I didn't know what was what), and the fact that I had to keep looking up units and their abilities.

Has anybody noticed that C:CD is the first codex that totally disregards the WYSIWYG mentality? Random wargear means no way to enforce WYSIWYG.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:


You are in NO position to tell someone to calm down after you have been decrying a codex a failure when it hasn't even been out for a week. And since you have provided no counter-points to his arguments, I'm just gonna assume you're just mad you got owned.

Not a failure. it has glaring weaknesses and some screwy mechanics, and I did so with a calm demeanour.

I offer no counter points because his list consists of a high amount of "maybe" "if" "could" "probably" which show how competitively inclined he is, again its a thread about how competitive it is, not if it cant beat on noobs and average generals. Experiment262 (and you apparently) have a problem reading tone, I pointed out potential flaws in the army and it probably isnt top teir from my POV using years of experience and he countered it with things that dont work in game. "Anti green tide tactics dont work because I have meltaguns" "crushers are better because they are calvary" "skull cannons are totally fine", Its pointless to debate with people that cant accept things arent good. Pointing out his flawed tactical knowledge is a waste of my time because its not going to suddenly make him understand, its a pointless endeavour to argue with someone when you already know what they are going to say. I call "BS" on what I think is a problem being either a game mechanic/rule or the ethics of GW, Experiment262 flips his lid nearly every time I do and writes overly agressive posts as if Im yelling at him. I'm sure I could point out how people dont use aegis lines and LOS properly and he'd lose his mind.

Reality is, daemons suffer from marine tax (no grenades) like many other books have shown, will suffer massively from speed bumping and anti horde tactics. Their MCs are very expensive for only a 5++, thats 8-9 wounds, 15 if they have 3+ armour and a 200-300pt price tag. It has issues with fiiting in the toys and still having enough troops. Losing combat isnt an option for this book, its essentially a different version of "no rethreat" which Im sure many of you can remember can murder units. Its like nids in 5th (certianly feels like the same arguements) they can win but because of the effort involved you wont see them as much as the armies that dont have self damaging rules and consistent results.


EDIT: Also I said I liked some of the units, but I dont see the posts agreeing about the potentially awesomeness of that.

I have to ask, have you actually tried playing a game or two with the new codex?
Theoryhammer/mathhammer and on-paper observations and predictions are fine and dandy, but it's still looking at things in a vacuum.

Daemonic Instability is not as bad as 'No Retreat!' was since that rule never took Ld into account. So now unless you're fighting something that was easily going to rape you to begin with, you have a shot at losing nothing. (or even gaining back everything that died that round)
Sure, boxcars is an auto-pooched, but it's still only a 2.7% chance and is still just as disastrous a roll for every other non-marine army anyways.
But then you're ignoring that DI is better than even ATSKNF in the shooting phase since you can't force Daemons to fall back or pin them. You need to wipe-out a unit entirely or odds are, the survivors are going to assault you, or else you need to phsyically go dig them off of any objectives they're camping on.

The army does not have that many issues fitting in adequit Troops + toys. For 1080pts a Daemon army can put 120 Horrors/Daenonettes/Plaguebearers on to the table. Sure you're not going to actively see that in a real game, but the point is, the Troops are cheap cheap as chips for what you're getting. Even 40 Plaguebearers + 20 'Nettes is good enough for most 1500-1750pts games. That's plenty of pts left to fit in support elements such as a pair of Grinders, a couple Heralds and Seekers/Screamers/Khorne Dogs.

People also seem to dismiss that fact that the entire Daemon army can now deploy as normal - a massive buff over the old codex. Coupled with how fast the army is, opponents are going to be faced with easily having at least 2-3+ units assaulting on turn 2 against non-mono Nurgle armies.
As for the random aspect, it's as much an advantage as it is a potential disadvantage. Opponent's cannot know just by looking across the table how the army is going to function. Will that GUO be T8-10? Will that Slaaneshii Herald have S9? Are those Horror units going to be able to stop my first assault dead in it's tracks? What ccw's will the characters have? Is that LoC going to suddenly become a combat beast? What Greater Rewards will that Prince have?
The Daemon player on the other hand likely has thought through the possible combos they can roll up and thus is much better prepared to utilise whatever additions their units/characters gain. This alone will make Daemons difficult to counter because what works well with one series of upgrades will fall flat against a different series of abilities/rewards.

Do I think that Daemons are going to outright replace Necrons as the next top/god tier? Probably not because Necrons are the outright best army adapted to 6th edition and gained the most from the new rules.
But I still believe that Daemons, especially in the right hands, will be able to contend extremely well as at its core, it's a well rounded & adaptable army.

Experiment 626 wrote:
[
The army does not have that many issues fitting in adequit Troops + toys.

Actually, it has. The best units are super-duper expensive and the only way to have points for them is to cut the Troops. Because let's be honest, the least appealing part of the Codex is the Troops selection. So at the end of the day, if you want an army that can actually do something, then you should play with min/maxed Troops (3x10 or 2x10) because the rest of your army costs a fortune in points.

Experiment 626 wrote:
[
As for the random aspect, it's as much an advantage as it is a potential disadvantage. Opponent's cannot know just by looking across the table how the army is going to function. Will that GUO be T8-10? Will that Slaaneshii Herald have S9? Are those Horror units going to be able to stop my first assault dead in it's tracks? What ccw's will the characters have? Is that LoC going to suddenly become a combat beast? What Greater Rewards will that Prince have?
The Daemon player on the other hand likely has thought through the possible combos they can roll up and thus is much better prepared to utilise whatever additions their units/characters gain. This alone will make Daemons difficult to counter because what works well with one series of upgrades will fall flat against a different series of abilities/rewards.

Why? Does the Daemon player have some sort of magical dice what will do what he wants? Or what? The Daemon player starts with the same certanity than his opponent: maybe he will get the right stuff... Or maybe not. Maybe his 290 points GUO will have Iron Arm and Warp Speed to wreck face... Or he won't, so his performance will be significantly weaker. And even then, you will have Iron Arm, Warp Speed and all the awesome rewards... And you will roll a 4 on Turn 2, and lose your GUO before he can do anything. The randomness makes Daemons hard to counter, granted. But it also makes them a nightmare to plan ahead. And for a tourney army (where you want your chances as close to 100% as you could) it is a real killing blow.

And I've already played several games with Daemons, so I know what I'm talking about .

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Pink Horrors are not spectacular, but they are certainly useful. They perform, GASP, exactly as you'd expect a unit that costs as little as they do to perform. Not game winners/breakers, but certainly worth the trouble to put out on the table. Given that they can reroll save rolls of 1, it makes them a bit more durable. They are also very good at taking out light armour (they destroyed a ghost ark and put a hull point on an annihilation barge in the game I played this week).

Hmm maybe minimal sized units for objective holding or tank hunting might be worthwhile. The D6 shots power was awful when I played with a large unit, but maybe using them for popping vehicles they might be worth while.

I also totally forgot that they can reroll 1's

 AtoMaki wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
[
The army does not have that many issues fitting in adequit Troops + toys.

Actually, it has. The best units are super-duper expensive and the only way to have points for them is to cut the Troops. Because let's be honest, the least appealing part of the Codex is the Troops selection. So at the end of the day, if you want an army that can actually do something, then you should play with min/maxed Troops (3x10 or 2x10) because the rest of your army costs a fortune in points.

Experiment 626 wrote:
[
As for the random aspect, it's as much an advantage as it is a potential disadvantage. Opponent's cannot know just by looking across the table how the army is going to function. Will that GUO be T8-10? Will that Slaaneshii Herald have S9? Are those Horror units going to be able to stop my first assault dead in it's tracks? What ccw's will the characters have? Is that LoC going to suddenly become a combat beast? What Greater Rewards will that Prince have?
The Daemon player on the other hand likely has thought through the possible combos they can roll up and thus is much better prepared to utilise whatever additions their units/characters gain. This alone will make Daemons difficult to counter because what works well with one series of upgrades will fall flat against a different series of abilities/rewards.

Why? Does the Daemon player have some sort of magical dice what will do what he wants? Or what? The Daemon player starts with the same certanity than his opponent: maybe he will get the right stuff... Or maybe not. Maybe his 290 points GUO will have Iron Arm and Warp Speed to wreck face... Or he won't, so his performance will be significantly weaker. And even then, you will have Iron Arm, Warp Speed and all the awesome rewards... And you will roll a 4 on Turn 2, and lose your GUO before he can do anything. The randomness makes Daemons hard to counter, granted. But it also makes them a nightmare to plan ahead. And for a tourney army (where you want your chances as close to 100% as you could) it is a real killing blow.

And I've already played several games with Daemons, so I know what I'm talking about .

I agree with some of your points, but completely disagree on your stance about troops. Troops in this codex are the heart of the army. After all, I think this is the first codex for 6th edition that has more than 2 core troops choices. And the majority of the elites and fast attack units are not expensive either. The only thing that is costly are the HQ and some Heavy Support selections, which given how effective they are, I would not say they are overcosted. Sure, if you want to do the 5 FMC build, you won't be taking much else, but that's more on the WAAC guy that uses that build than the Codex.

As for your comment about its use as a tourney army, I couldn't agree more. Tourney builds are all based around optimal builds and math-hammer, and despite my personal feelings on that, I understand that alot of people enjoy that sort of thing. This Codex will NOT be a tourney player's friend. I'm sure given time, there will be sturdy builds that can influence the Warpstorm table, but until that time, we will have to continue to see more posts about how horrible the army is because of the random element

My question about tournaments is, will tourney organizers have Daemon players roll their rewards once and keep the results for the entire tourney, or allow them to roll before each game. This is probably the only element that adds time to the game. Not having much shooting tends to equalize that over the course of a game, but it does take time.

It would make sense to treat the gifts just like psychic powers and magic powers in fantasy: you have to know which chart you're rolling on, but you roll at the start of each game to determine your "random" upgrades. I can't see levelheaded TOs going against that. Well, okay, I can. But I think it would be a bad call. Many daemon players with multiple rolls on the chart will often have primary gifts picked without even needing to roll and will likely only have to roll for 1-2 guys.

Rewards are explicitly generated before each game, just like rolling for rulebook psychic powers. I can't see any TO changing that. The process of generating them will get quick with practice. Once you've played your army a bunch of times and know the charts, it'll be quick. Certainly quicker than Tyranid players generating their psychic powers currently.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
I've shelved my Daemon Army. All 225 models. I'll play my Nids, Orks, and IG for my horde army as they to me are far superior in what they are designed for.

The 6th ED game mechanics makes the entire game process slower than 5th ED. The New codex involves more randomness and more charting to cause the game to go even slower. Maybe I'll keep 125 models in my display case. But that's it. Good luck with your army. Maybe it will be fun for you, but right now it is not fun for me to run an army in a set of rules and game mechanics that makes the game for me to go slower.

Spoken like someone who hasn't actually played using the new codex. The "it's gonna make the game drag" nonsense really needs to stop. My first game with that army (mind you, not just the first game with the codex, but with the entire army!), we managed to get through 7 turns at 1500 points in about 3 hours. The Warp Storm table added a whole 90 seconds to the process. The biggest drag was in the pre-game when I had to roll up all of the rewards and psychic powers (added about ten minutes because I didn't know what was what), and the fact that I had to keep looking up units and their abilities.

Has anybody noticed that C:CD is the first codex that totally disregards the WYSIWYG mentality? Random wargear means no way to enforce WYSIWYG.

3 hours for 1500 point army? That is 45 minutes too long Thank you but no. Try 2000 points and see how this nonsense gets bogged down. Like I did.

Have fun with your army. I'll go and play my Nids.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
I've shelved my Daemon Army. All 225 models. I'll play my Nids, Orks, and IG for my horde army as they to me are far superior in what they are designed for.

The 6th ED game mechanics makes the entire game process slower than 5th ED. The New codex involves more randomness and more charting to cause the game to go even slower. Maybe I'll keep 125 models in my display case. But that's it. Good luck with your army. Maybe it will be fun for you, but right now it is not fun for me to run an army in a set of rules and game mechanics that makes the game for me to go slower.

Spoken like someone who hasn't actually played using the new codex. The "it's gonna make the game drag" nonsense really needs to stop. My first game with that army (mind you, not just the first game with the codex, but with the entire army!), we managed to get through 7 turns at 1500 points in about 3 hours. The Warp Storm table added a whole 90 seconds to the process. The biggest drag was in the pre-game when I had to roll up all of the rewards and psychic powers (added about ten minutes because I didn't know what was what), and the fact that I had to keep looking up units and their abilities.

Has anybody noticed that C:CD is the first codex that totally disregards the WYSIWYG mentality? Random wargear means no way to enforce WYSIWYG.

3 hours for 1500 point army? That is 45 minutes too long Thank you but no. Try 2000 points and see how this nonsense gets bogged down. Like I did.

Have fun with your army. I'll go and play my Nids.

Clearly just brashed off what he said, 7 turns with an unfamiliar army and new rules, no matter what army is going to take 45 minutes longer than usual.

Adam - so the first time you played your NIds it didnt take any longer to play? Honestly?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Adam - so the first time you played your NIds it didnt take any longer to play? Honestly?

We all know the sky must fall for at least one person when a codex comes out.

Has anyone thought that a large component of the doom and glooming is that Deamons went from what was really a small elite army, to a horde army with little to no warning?

5th Ed 10 Plaguebearers could stand up to an inordinate amount of firepower.

5th Ed 10 Bloodletters could panhandle anything without fear of loosing combat... ever.

5th Ed 10 Horrors would annihilate a whole unit of 4+ save shmucks.

These units are still good, but now function at a larger size mainly due to GW wanting to sell us more models. Nothing became bad its just the whole army shifted focus from small elite units to large hordes.

But hell that's just my observations....