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Have you considered, perhaps, not playing that way? Many games can be broken if you make it your mission to do so.

 King Crow wrote:
Hi guys,

My second and less important question is, are they any easier to play than 40k? I've read the 5th ed rulebook almost twice and I still have trouble playing the game. There are simply to many rules for a casual gamer like me.

I hope i posted in the right spot, and i look forward to everyones response!

The fact that you think 40ks rules are hard to get, excludes most games sorry. 40k has a super simple design, that is what makes it so stupidly boring to play. Magic, warmachine/hordes, malifux etc are all alot harder to play then 40k
The Games Workshop games are just about finding some super cheesy rule and exlpoting it to the max "rules laywer it to the max!". The core rules are very, very simple... and poorly done, and if you put your mind to it you can find lots of game design flaws, that you can exploit to the max. But If you dont bend the words, or try to find loopholes the core rules are the easiest you will find, if you want a full blown table-top game

I would really want to recomend some games for you, but when you say 40k "simply has to many rules for a casual gamer". When in my mind 40k is the KING of Casual. I can not in good conscience give you any sorry

 Nucflash wrote:

 King Crow wrote:
Hi guys,

My second and less important question is, are they any easier to play than 40k? I've read the 5th ed rulebook almost twice and I still have trouble playing the game. There are simply to many rules for a casual gamer like me.

I hope i posted in the right spot, and i look forward to everyones response!

The fact that you think 40ks rules are hard to get, excludes most games sorry. 40k has a super simple design, that is what makes it so stupidly boring to play. Magic, warmachine/hordes, malifux etc are all alot harder to play then 40k
The Games Workshop games are just about finding some super cheesy rule and exlpoting it to the max "rules laywer it to the max!". The core rules are very, very simple... and poorly done, and if you put your mind to it you can find lots of game design flaws, that you can exploit to the max. But If you dont bend the words, or try to find loopholes the core rules are the easiest you will find, if you want a full blown table-top game

I would really want to recomend some games for you, but when you say 40k "simply has to many rules for a casual gamer". When in my mind 40k is the KING of Casual. I can not in good conscience give you any sorry

While I agree that 40K is not a terribly complex game, there are still games that are quite a bit simpler. I don't know much about DUST Warfare, but I've heard it's pretty straightforward.

Just want to point out that: Simple design =/= bad design. It's good to have a simple core mechanic to build your game off of.

The best games are the ones that have a lot of depth without a lot of complexity.

See, while Warhammer doesn't have much complexity, it doesn't have too much depth either.

Infinity, for the sake of comparison, has simple design (d-20 roll-under), but lots of depth due to the flexibility of the order pool and emphasis on positioning.

I think the OP may be a little confused with all the special rules 40k uses to try and make the game "deeper."


To the OP: I'd recommend games like X-wing, and Infinity (both those rules are fairly intuitive, in my opinion).

 King Crow wrote:
Ugavine, what games have you found?

Only what has already been mentioned here, Warmachine, Mantic, etc.

But I'm still very happy with 40K and it's only the odd model I from GW I find over-priced, generally I'm fine with their prices.

For other games I've turned to skirmish games. I already own lots of Star Wars Minis and have started playing Heroclix. I'm also trying to get into Dark Potential and 7TV. 7TV is the game that is really grabbing my attention, it's just a matter of getting some others at the club interested in it.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Monster Rain wrote:
X-Wing is the second best miniatures game of all time, after 40k.

You must use some really funky definition of "best"

My group broke X-wing by... the 5th game or so. Nobody feels like playing it after that.

Care to explain?

Dark potential looked cool, but also overpriced if i read correctly.

Also! I would like to clear up some of my specifications for those I confused. My perfect game (I am aware my perfect does NOT exist, but it will clarify what I want out of the game) is probably 28mm models with some modeling and painting required. With easy and simple rules to play (I understand this means lack of depth to gameplay) cheaper prices than 40k and smaller scale battles down to a minimum of squad on squad combat. I really love sci-fi so that would be an ideal requirement.

P.S. How is warpath? I've looked into it and it looks pretty cool too.

 RatBot wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:

 King Crow wrote:
Hi guys,

My second and less important question is, are they any easier to play than 40k? I've read the 5th ed rulebook almost twice and I still have trouble playing the game. There are simply to many rules for a casual gamer like me.

I hope i posted in the right spot, and i look forward to everyones response!

The fact that you think 40ks rules are hard to get, excludes most games sorry. 40k has a super simple design, that is what makes it so stupidly boring to play. Magic, warmachine/hordes, malifux etc are all alot harder to play then 40k
The Games Workshop games are just about finding some super cheesy rule and exlpoting it to the max "rules laywer it to the max!". The core rules are very, very simple... and poorly done, and if you put your mind to it you can find lots of game design flaws, that you can exploit to the max. But If you dont bend the words, or try to find loopholes the core rules are the easiest you will find, if you want a full blown table-top game

I would really want to recomend some games for you, but when you say 40k "simply has to many rules for a casual gamer". When in my mind 40k is the KING of Casual. I can not in good conscience give you any sorry

While I agree that 40K is not a terribly complex game, there are still games that are quite a bit simpler. I don't know much about DUST Warfare, but I've heard it's pretty straightforward.

I agree with RatBot... a lot of 40k rules are overly complicated for what they do. Wound Allocation for example is still something that they don't seem to have gotten right yet.
40k: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/WoundAllocation6E.pdf
Dust Warfare: Remove whichever models you want
I think one of the problems with 40k is that 'special rules' are inseparable from the core rules. GW has worked hard to get it to a relatively comprehensive list, but this is still a dozen pages long and very few units are without at least one special rule, and they still interact very strangely with each other in many very common situations. The special rules are additions to the core rules, and so don't necessarily function very smoothly.
I really like Dust Warfare's way of making the special rules simply to be modifications of the core rules by augmenting or denying bonuses/penalties. It does have a few quirks but I really recommend it as a game system, and I think it is one of the few that lets you play company-level combat with 28mm models.

 Nucflash wrote:

 King Crow wrote:
Hi guys,

My second and less important question is, are they any easier to play than 40k? I've read the 5th ed rulebook almost twice and I still have trouble playing the game. There are simply to many rules for a casual gamer like me.

I hope i posted in the right spot, and i look forward to everyones response!

The fact that you think 40ks rules are hard to get, excludes most games sorry. 40k has a super simple design, that is what makes it so stupidly boring to play. Magic, warmachine/hordes, malifux etc are all alot harder to play then 40k
The Games Workshop games are just about finding some super cheesy rule and exlpoting it to the max "rules laywer it to the max!". The core rules are very, very simple... and poorly done, and if you put your mind to it you can find lots of game design flaws, that you can exploit to the max. But If you dont bend the words, or try to find loopholes the core rules are the easiest you will find, if you want a full blown table-top game

I would really want to recomend some games for you, but when you say 40k "simply has to many rules for a casual gamer". When in my mind 40k is the KING of Casual. I can not in good conscience give you any sorry

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here on a point. 40k's basics are stupid easy, but then you get the dream within the dream where the main rulebook has 40-50 universal special rules, each codex comes with usually 3-5 army rules and each model can have it's own set of rules. That means one model can be under the effect of over half a dozen rules at a time and that's not counting psychic powers. 6th ed arguably slowed the game down because they threw even more rules in the mix. 40k requires a large amount of memorization to play on a competent level.

 King Crow wrote:


P.S. How is warpath? I've looked into it and it looks pretty cool too.

Take a look for yourself, it's free:

http://gallery.mailchimp.com/e62f0c35454fa3ba687404d69/files/Warpath_II_Rules.pdf

With easy and simple rules to play (I understand this means lack of depth to gameplay)

I'd disagree with that. Simple rules can be a symptom of a shallow game, but they can also simply be elegantly designed to make a deep game easy to play (the inverse of 40k IMHO)

 Surtur wrote:

 Nucflash wrote:

 King Crow wrote:
Hi guys,

My second and less important question is, are they any easier to play than 40k? I've read the 5th ed rulebook almost twice and I still have trouble playing the game. There are simply to many rules for a casual gamer like me.

I hope i posted in the right spot, and i look forward to everyones response!

The fact that you think 40ks rules are hard to get, excludes most games sorry. 40k has a super simple design, that is what makes it so stupidly boring to play. Magic, warmachine/hordes, malifux etc are all alot harder to play then 40k
The Games Workshop games are just about finding some super cheesy rule and exlpoting it to the max "rules laywer it to the max!". The core rules are very, very simple... and poorly done, and if you put your mind to it you can find lots of game design flaws, that you can exploit to the max. But If you dont bend the words, or try to find loopholes the core rules are the easiest you will find, if you want a full blown table-top game

I would really want to recomend some games for you, but when you say 40k "simply has to many rules for a casual gamer". When in my mind 40k is the KING of Casual. I can not in good conscience give you any sorry

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here on a point. 40k's basics are stupid easy, but then you get the dream within the dream where the main rulebook has 40-50 universal special rules, each codex comes with usually 3-5 army rules and each model can have it's own set of rules. That means one model can be under the effect of over half a dozen rules at a time and that's not counting psychic powers. 6th ed arguably slowed the game down because they threw even more rules in the mix. 40k requires a large amount of memorization to play on a competent level.

He wants to play Casualy.. And, what you are talking about now is, going into the fine lines and bending every word and trying to Mini Max the potential of a Unit. But I said the "Basics" of warhammer 40k . And what i mean by that is Moving the models, you dont have to care about facing.. You can measure everything before you shoot in 6th ed. Glancing hit you take away a hull point... You roll X six sided dices to hit you roll to wound you roll for armour saves... I can play 40k casualy in Zombie mode, it requires zero thought.. just move mesure.. shoot.. run Charge etc... pile in models.

All the Extra rules are "BROKEN Exploits".. The best way to play 40k is casualy... Because if you give it any serious effort you soon find out that it has Zero balance and is the most "luck based" game on the market...

Just an example.. vanilla marines 5 for 100 points.. basic bolter, power armour and close combat weapon.. Gray knights get Storm bolter and Power weapon for the same price LOL... were is the Balance??? I cant see it help me... Why do you keep playing this crap... I dont understand please help me....

And to the OP.. if you can find a few friends that want to learn a more straight forward game.. There are alot of them out there.. But they often have More basic rules then 40k... But you dident state if it was the basics of the game you found difficult or the fact that the rules are spread all over and you have to look through diffrent books... a basic game of 40k if you dont try and cheese and exploit and find loopholes to sabotage and win the game with.. 40k is the easiest Basic system I have played...

Warmachine is a good system but it has alot more, strategic elements to it and you have to think alot more about how you move and what you do on the Tabe-top when playing.. If you are happy with playing it smale scale though its cheaper to do so with then 40k...

I highly recommend Malifaux.

The cost of entry to that game is about 30-40 dollars. The cost of one of their box sets and the free pdf download of the rules offered on their site. Or you can just buy the mini rulebook for 15 dollars if you want a hard copy.

A typical game of Malifaux will end up being between 25-40 points. The 35 crew i usually run cost me a starter box, and 3 blisters. Super Cheap. Just note that you benefit greatly from having more models from the same faction (guild, ressers, arcanists, neverborn, or outcasts) since crews are built after the objective is determined! But its not a big deal, I have been playing with largely the same crew every game and they seem capable of handeling themselves at doing whatever.

The other issue with Malifaux is that its not sci-fi per say. Its more like Weird West. You've got your zombie raising victorian irish pimp, your gritty cowgirl with a samarai sword, a whole bunch of steampunk, some shark mouthed teddy bears, and of course hillbilly gremlins for good measure.

I really enjoy Malifaux's rules system as well, the card mechanic gives you a lot more control over your luck by giving you a hand. If you flip a bad card, often you can play one from your hand to help you get a crucial attack off, but at the same time you only have so many cards in your hand so you need to be careful not to waste them! It adds an element of depth that is sorely lacking in most dice games.

 Nucflash wrote:

He wants to play Casualy.. And, what you are talking about now is, going into the fine lines and bending every word and trying to Mini Max the potential of a Unit. But I said the "Basics" of warhammer 40k . And what i mean by that is Moving the models, you dont have to care about facing.. You can measure everything before you shoot in 6th ed. Glancing hit you take away a hull point... You roll X six sided dices to hit you roll to wound you roll for armour saves... I can play 40k casualy in Zombie mode, it requires zero thought.. just move mesure.. shoot.. run Charge etc... pile in models.

All the Extra rules are "BROKEN Exploits".. The best way to play 40k is casualy... Because if you give it any serious effort you soon find out that it has Zero balance and is the most "luck based" game on the market...

Just an example.. vanilla marines 5 for 100 points.. basic bolter, power armour and close combat weapon.. Gray knights get Storm bolter and Power weapon for the same price LOL... were is the Balance??? I cant see it help me... Why do you keep playing this crap... I dont understand please help me....

And to the OP.. if you can find a few friends that want to learn a more straight forward game.. There are alot of them out there.. But they often have More basic rules then 40k... But you dident state if it was the basics of the game you found difficult or the fact that the rules are spread all over and you have to look through diffrent books... a basic game of 40k if you dont try and cheese and exploit and find loopholes to sabotage and win the game with.. 40k is the easiest Basic system I have played...

Warmachine is a good system but it has alot more, strategic elements to it and you have to think alot more about how you move and what you do on the Tabe-top when playing.. If you are happy with playing it smale scale though its cheaper to do so with then 40k...

I don't think we're really talking about balance or min-maxing or competitive play. We're just saying that a lot of 40k rules are quite complex, and its very difficult if not impossible to separate the 'special rules' from the 'rules that you need to play a basic game'. Look at anything other than a standard infantry model - a light skimmer or a walker or a jump-infantry - and the laundry list of special rules that they come with.
You bring up vehicles and hull points and say it is simple. Sure its ok and its better than it used to be; but its still a completely different set of rules for vehicles than infantry in nearly every way; you don't even roll to wound the same. Its personal taste whether that is legitimate abstraction (vehicles are different to infantry) or needless complexity (see other games where vehicles and infantry have much more overlap of rules). There are bonuses for or against all of those rolls which are added by special rules or gained by how fast you moved or whatever.
You say 'just roll X dice, to hit and to wound and take saves', yet the wounding process is pretty complicated even in the most typical situation. Very very few units these days consist of uniform models (have at least a sergeant) and very few units shoot uniform weapons (one special weapon per squad is very common), so you run in to the whole shenanigans with model placement and often end up rolling one die at a time to take saves. That's not min-maxing or being competitive - its just a very typical occurrence.
Play any game and have a look at the actual leadership rules you use, not just the basic ones. How many rolls do you make that stand their intended course? Half the armies I fight against these days are stubborn or fearless or get-back-in-the-fight or ATSKNF or 3-dice-and-pick-the-lowest/highest. Common occurrences of additional rules, make it more complicated than it needs to be.

Judge Dredd? Mongoose have released some free rules to be able to play bigger games.

 King Crow wrote:
Dark potential looked cool, but also overpriced if i read correctly.

Also! I would like to clear up some of my specifications for those I confused. My perfect game (I am aware my perfect does NOT exist, but it will clarify what I want out of the game) is probably 28mm models with some modeling and painting required. With easy and simple rules to play (I understand this means lack of depth to gameplay) cheaper prices than 40k and smaller scale battles down to a minimum of squad on squad combat. I really love sci-fi so that would be an ideal requirement.

P.S. How is warpath? I've looked into it and it looks pretty cool too.

So, I'ma go ahead and vote infinity. I'ma do it.

Infinity's core mechanics are easy to grasp, and I've been able to get some mid-sized battes in for about $70. One more pack or so and I can sport an entire army.

The scale is waay smaller that 40k. It's more like two SWAT or special forces teams going at it then squad on squad combat. Although, you are able to link troops into a fireteam,

What special rules there are are layers and thus easier to keep track of. For example, Airdrop deployment 2 allows the unit to come int off the side of the board, while Airdrop deployment 3 allows the unit to come on the board anywhere from above, like deepstriking.

And the mini's are sci-fi. Really cool sci-fi.

Go for MERCS. A full faction is about the same price as a box of Marines. It's sci-fi/modern combat, the rules are tight and takes about 30 minutes to learn. And though the models are very pretty, nothing stops you from proxying your 40k stuff.

The fluff sucks rock hard but it's a good game.

I would actually advise AGAINST Infinity, especially for a casual gamer. The models are fantastic and the concept great, but even among veteran players there is a LOT of digging through the rulebook, debating on AROs, questioning the Spanish-to-English translation, etc. I'd have to say its much better suited for people with lots of wargaming experience and whom already have the basic concepts down pat.

Warpath, while I've never played, looks like a good choice. Especially since the models are so cheap - low barrier of entry and low risk if you don't like it

 King Crow wrote:
Hi guys,
I've been collecting and painting for a long time but i have never played 40k before. While I wanted to get into the game the prices are just reaching that point that where I'm starting to think "even if I did get into the game would it be worth all the money?" between the codicies, models, rulebooks, accessories, game boards. I just don't think I want to shell the money anymore. I'll still enjoy painting and modeling occasionally and maybe the occasional skirmish, but that'll be about it.

It sounds like you would be best suited for a skirmish size game like Infinity, Malifaux or WM/H; cost of 40k aside. But keep in mind these games aren't like 40k. They are smaller in scope, with usually only a few models on the table at a time.

This brings me to my main point. Are there any other sci-fi wargames out there that are significantly cheaper than 40k?

Yes, all of them, but there are none that are similar to 40k enough that I'd consider them an apples and apples alternative. That doesn't mean they aren't fun.

My second and less important question is, are they any easier to play than 40k? I've read the 5th ed rulebook almost twice and I still have trouble playing the game. There are simply to many rules for a casual gamer like me.

Short answer, yes, all of them, longer answer, it depends. Did you ever read 6th edition? It's a great improvement. Again, since we are dealing with skirmish level games they are by their very nature going to be easier. But, YMMV... Infinity is a very fun skirmish game, and the rules are easy to learn but can take a while to completely master. WM/H uses cards which allow you to quickly glance at rules on the fly and get back to the game. However, experience goes a long way with ANY system. Experienced Infinity players don't stale-mate either other, experienced WM/H players don't really use their cards but for tracking damage, and experienced 40k players don't even need to open their codex or rule books during a game.

Also! I would like to clear up some of my specifications for those I confused. My perfect game (I am aware my perfect does NOT exist, but it will clarify what I want out of the game) is probably 28mm models with some modeling and painting required. With easy and simple rules to play (I understand this means lack of depth to gameplay) cheaper prices than 40k and smaller scale battles down to a minimum of squad on squad combat. I really love sci-fi so that would be an ideal requirement.

I would give Infinity a close look if there is a community in your area. It is squad on squad, and has the feel of playing Halo teams, but on a table top. It's also not YGIG, but you go, I respond, I go, you respond. The models have a more true sci-fi feel IMO, than other skirmish games which take on a sci-horror, or a Gothic punk type feel. Some may like that, and even consider it sci-fi, but I don't get the same vibe.

 King Crow wrote:
Dark potential looked cool, but also overpriced if i read correctly.

Also! I would like to clear up some of my specifications for those I confused. My perfect game (I am aware my perfect does NOT exist, but it will clarify what I want out of the game) is probably 28mm models with some modeling and painting required. With easy and simple rules to play (I understand this means lack of depth to gameplay) cheaper prices than 40k and smaller scale battles down to a minimum of squad on squad combat. I really love sci-fi so that would be an ideal requirement.

Sounds like you want a -clix style game (Heroclix, MageKnight, etc) or Heroscape (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroscape).

For a clix style game you'll need some clix bases if you don't want to use their figures, for Heroscape you just need to make up some stats or cards for whatever model you want, and get some of the terrain (or play on a hex board). But Heroscape is REALLY simple and easy.

 whitedragon wrote:

 King Crow wrote:
Dark potential looked cool, but also overpriced if i read correctly.

Also! I would like to clear up some of my specifications for those I confused. My perfect game (I am aware my perfect does NOT exist, but it will clarify what I want out of the game) is probably 28mm models with some modeling and painting required. With easy and simple rules to play (I understand this means lack of depth to gameplay) cheaper prices than 40k and smaller scale battles down to a minimum of squad on squad combat. I really love sci-fi so that would be an ideal requirement.

Sounds like you want a -clix style game (Heroclix, MageKnight, etc) or Heroscape (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroscape).

For a clix style game you'll need some clix bases if you don't want to use their figures, for Heroscape you just need to make up some stats or cards for whatever model you want, and get some of the terrain (or play on a hex board). But Heroscape is REALLY simple and easy.

Now... There's no reason to be mean.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/469610.page

Awesome ruleset that combines 40k and Mordheim.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Surtur wrote:
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here on a point. 40k's basics are stupid easy, but then you get the dream within the dream where the main rulebook has 40-50 universal special rules

That would actually be 80 USRs in the main rulebook for 40k.

I'm leaning towards Warpath still.. While Mercs has beautiful models Warpath has just the right scale i'm looking for and models are also pretty good looking too. Especially the coporation. I'm going to read the rules and attempt to understand them and maybe find a few battle reports.

You could give Warzone a go.

Hello King Crow!!

I found an AWESOME alternative to 40k!

Its called Tommorows War.

Its made by the guys at Ambush Alley Games.

It is NOT scale specific.
It is NOT dependant upon trick lists.
It is NOT sold by a company who makes miniatures.

Line of sight and troop quality make the difference in the game.

It relies upon your ability to make good command decisions.

Check it out. I think you will like it...and BTW it DOES NOT use a point system, ALL games are scenario driven.

Give Warzone a shot, it is a big hit so far in my gaming group, they have a kickstarter on right now as well.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/513277403/mutant-chronicles-warzone-resurrection/

Beta Rules are available so you can try it before you buy it.

I like that Warzone has a lot of cheap cool models. It's a bit overwhelming all the armies you can choose, but it's cool there's all that variety.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I like that Warzone has a lot of cheap cool models. It's a bit overwhelming all the armies you can choose, but it's cool there's all that variety.

 King Crow wrote:
I like that Warzone has a lot of cheap cool models. It's a bit overwhelming all the armies you can choose, but it's cool there's all that variety.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I like that Warzone has a lot of cheap cool models. It's a bit overwhelming all the armies you can choose, but it's cool there's all that variety.

Well, there's only going to be 4 (or 5 if the Kickstarter continues to gain even at its relatively slow rate) to start with, so that should help.

 nolzur wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/469610.page

Awesome ruleset that combines 40k and Mordheim.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Surtur wrote:
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here on a point. 40k's basics are stupid easy, but then you get the dream within the dream where the main rulebook has 40-50 universal special rules

That would actually be 80 USRs in the main rulebook for 40k.

Wow! Here I was guestimating it, and I missed it by 40. I thought I might have been highballing it too. Is it really 80? Sooooo... yeah. 80 USRs that can come into play. I think MCs are subject to like 4 or 5 just by virtue of being MCs.

Nucflash wrote:
He wants to play Casualy.. And, what you are talking about now is, going into the fine lines and bending every word and trying to Mini Max the potential of a Unit. But I said the "Basics" of warhammer 40k . And what i mean by that is Moving the models, you dont have to care about facing.. You can measure everything before you shoot in 6th ed. Glancing hit you take away a hull point... You roll X six sided dices to hit you roll to wound you roll for armour saves... I can play 40k casualy in Zombie mode, it requires zero thought.. just move mesure.. shoot.. run Charge etc... pile in models.

All the Extra rules are "BROKEN Exploits".. The best way to play 40k is casualy... Because if you give it any serious effort you soon find out that it has Zero balance and is the most "luck based" game on the market...

Just an example.. vanilla marines 5 for 100 points.. basic bolter, power armour and close combat weapon.. Gray knights get Storm bolter and Power weapon for the same price LOL... were is the Balance??? I cant see it help me... Why do you keep playing this crap... I dont understand please help me....

And to the OP.. if you can find a few friends that want to learn a more straight forward game.. There are alot of them out there.. But they often have More basic rules then 40k... But you dident state if it was the basics of the game you found difficult or the fact that the rules are spread all over and you have to look through diffrent books... a basic game of 40k if you dont try and cheese and exploit and find loopholes to sabotage and win the game with.. 40k is the easiest Basic system I have played...

Well, the extra rules you are referring to aren't really extra. They're part of the game. If you choose a model affected by these rules, it's not fair to you or your opponent to just ignore the USRs.

I think that 40k is a game you should take casually just because how loose the balance is, but you have to take it seriously enough to read all the rules. And because of this required homework, you desire to take it seriously. I've taken the stance that GW games are not to be taken seriously. I think that you have a problem that because you cannot take the game seriously, it's bad. While I believe they should do things better on their game, the fact remains that you can still just play it with friends and it'll be okay. Though I don't recommend GW games due to their costs and corporate policies, I think that you can still find fun in them.

 King Crow wrote:
I'm leaning towards Warpath still.. While Mercs has beautiful models Warpath has just the right scale i'm looking for and models are also pretty good looking too. Especially the coporation. I'm going to read the rules and attempt to understand them and maybe find a few battle reports.

Also remember that if you don't have a community of players in your area, any game could be awesome, but practically useless. That is, unless you just want to paint up minis and play your wife or something.

I know I already PMed you about it, but thought you'd a game I'd been developing. I'll just attach it here. /shamelessplug