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 Peregrine wrote:
An anti-tank missile will reduce a primarch-size being to a bloody mist. It doesn't matter how good you are at combat when a random soldier with a missile shoots you from a mile away, or calls in an artillery strike on you, or a bomber drops a tactical nuke on your battlefield, or whatever.

You would expect primarchs to survive better than regular human though in any case. Aside from their superhuman toughness, and lightning reflexes, they also had tactical smarts, keen sense and awareness. They didn't survive a thousand battles just by luck, or just because the plot needed them to. They were designed that way.

It begs the question. If a primarch could be taken out by 1 guy with an anti tank weapon, and a bit of luck... Why would the Emperor even bother to make primarchs? Let alone invest so much time and energy into finding them.

Peregrine wrote:Of course it won't be direct hits. It will be barely dodging in time, or the magic shield just barely holding, or whatever. The point is that main characters, no matter who they are, no matter what genre they are in, always survive better than lesser characters.

Which means that when Primarchs take direct hits and ignore them, it's a statement that they are tough enough to not only survive but be unharmed by it. There's no plot device protecting them. They are not just blobs of meat. They were made with the power of the Warp. They are far beyond normal creatures, and so get to ignore normal guidelines about the toughness of man sized creatures.

Perhaps the Emperor isn't all he's cracked up to be. Perhaps the only reason he could beat up the Primarchs is genetic-behavioral patterning that he put into them during their creation.

What other badasses did the Emperor man-handle? None.

Perhaps the Emperor was also a predatory child molester who raped Horus while he was still a fetus, and repressed memories of this incident are the real reason for Horus's rebellion.

But to answer your question, the Emperor personally slew the leader of this Waaagh in question.

And maybe Gork and Mork had a side bet going on the uber-warboss to snipe emperor pinkies head, just sounds like a foreshadow event to display how far horus will fall..

Save his daddy..and eventually betray his daddy, and get wiped from existance for it.

Its all legendary stuff anyway, kinda like 40k version of the Iliad or the Odyssey. Based on history , but full of the actions of gods, and their pawns.

rems01 wrote:Heresy Betrayal sheds more light on this event.

To paraphrase the Emperor with a force of Custodes led the Luna Wolves and Horus on an attack on an Ork planet. Now this ork planet was rather special, it was entirely artificial, constructed from scrap etc and held together through some piece of Dark Age gravity tech. It was essentially a planet sized space hulk or ork rok.

On this planet the orks were of an immense size, nobs were as large as dreadnoughts. So a warboss of these was truly terrifying.

During the battle the emperor and his custodes become separated from the Luna Wolves and surrounded by orks. Battling for hours the Emperor is temporarily dazed/overcome be the sheer amount of firepower etc directed at him. (I assume his psychic shields gave out under the immense stress they were under). In his moment of weakness a warboss of these exceptional orks wrapped his paws around the emperor's neck. An instant later Horus was there and cut the ork's arms off.

It never says that the emperor was choking to death, or in mortal peril.

Re-quoting for emphasis.


I can't believe it took so long for the 'answer' to come up, or that people debated the toughness of the Emperor without raising, or knowing, it.
To me, it seems like this elaboration/re-writing of the 'emperor choked by an ork' fluff was to deliberately clear up the incident and show the power of the big E, and that he wasn't choked by some random run of the mill ork.

What a ridiculous argument.

Daemon Princes can sunder tanks with casual effort; we know for a fact that Primarchs can not only tank the attacks of Daemon Princes, but physically overpower them in return. Sanguinus took a point blank hit from Ka'Banda that instantly incinerated the 500 Blood Angels that were fighting on the battlefield around them, leaving a massive crater in the middle of the battlefield. Sanguinus was knocked unconscious, but basically unharmed. 24 hours after taking that point-blank hit, he wakes the feth up, goes to Ka'Banda's house and physically dominates him with, literally, his bare hands, after one-shotting a Keeper of Secrets without even looking at him.

When Fulgrim's captains fought him before trying to exorcise the daemon from him, one of his captains, who was wearing terminator armor, punched him in the back of the head with a power fist- it did nothing- and that was after Fulgrim had been shot multiple times with poison darts that were capable of instantly killing normal astartes. After the terminator's power-fist bounced harmlessly off of Fulgrim's head, it took Fulgrim's noise marine captain resting the barrel of a blast master cannon against his ear, and then firing it at point-blank range, to finally knock Fulgrim unconscious. Not kill him, mind you, all it did was knock-him out. The Primarch woke up 10 minutes later. The force of the blast from the Blast-Master brought all the captains in the surrounding area to their knees in pain, and shattered the stone pillars housed through the room. Fulgrim was basically unharmed from this. He wasn't even wearing armor, he was wearing a loin-cloth, lol.

In Angel Exterminatus, a Raven Guard snipes Fulgrim in the head with a custom made sniper rifle. The bullet enters Fulgrim's skull from the left-hand side, goes through his brain, and lodges itself in the right hemisphere of his brain. While Fabius Bile is digging in Fulgrim's skull trying to get the bullet out, Fulgrim is conscious and talking to Perturabo. As soon as Fabius takes the bullet out, Fulgrim gets to his feet and laughs it off.

Yet people genuinely believe that an RPG or other heavy weapon would one-shot a Primarch? Stop being silly, guys.

So are Primarchs now nearly indestructible? For the sake of argument, do they have bullet proof heads or do they actually need a helmet? What's to stop a sniper shooting them through the head? If one was momentarily dazed and you put a gun right to his temple and tried to blow his brains out, that would work right? They aren't indestructible, they're still human, or so the fluff was that I grew up with. All this 'took a energy blast to the chest that killed 500 people around him' stuff seems so OTT. I thought primarchs were prided for their intelligence and leadership, not for being able to rip tanks in half like telephone directories.

It isn't OTT because it's the only way it makes sense without plot armor.

If Primarchs could be killed by something as ordinary as sniper rounds to the head, or a shotgun to the face, none of them would have lived long enough to even make it to the Horus Heresy- they would have all been killed off eventually during the Great Crusade, considering the caliber of enemies they fight.

As far as "are they invulnerable". Well. Fast-forward to the 41st millennium, how many Primarchs are around? Exactly. They obviously are not invulnerable.

Fluff depends on who wrote it. There are too many different answers to find the correct one. Until forgeworld release the rules for them, we will not have a clear answer.

Sanguinius has been breaking the backs of Bloodthirsters over his knees since ages ago.

But this is some recent development, right guys? lol


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a b3ached whal3 wrote:
Fluff depends on who wrote it. There are too many different answers to find the correct one. Until forgeworld release the rules for them, we will not have a clear answer.

Forgeworld sort of has.

They're Greater Daemons+.

Oh, and im guessing they had some pretty badass technology, e.g rerollable 2+ invun sort of thing, to explain how much they survive.

BlaxicanX wrote:
It isn't OTT because it's the only way it makes sense without plot armor.

If Primarchs could be killed by something as ordinary as sniper rounds to the head, or a shotgun to the face, none of them would have lived long enough to even make it to the Horus Heresy- they would have all been killed off eventually during the Great Crusade, considering the caliber of enemies they fight.

As far as "are they invulnerable". Well. Fast-forward to the 41st millennium, how many Primarchs are around? Exactly. They obviously are not invulnerable.

So lets say it happens and you shot a primarch in the head does it just bounce off like a BB or disappear because the plot armor wouldn't let it happen because it would kill him?

Why not both? The way I see it, Primarchs are incredibly powerful and durable beings, at least equal to Greater Daemons or Daemon Princes; but they also have plot armour, on top of this.

a b3ached whal3 wrote:
Oh, and im guessing they had some pretty badass technology, e.g rerollable 2+ invun sort of thing, to explain how much they survive.

Nope. We've seen the rules for the first four primarchs (including Horus) and they're roughly MC-level durability with eternal warrior and normal character-level invulnerable saves. They have a lot of nice weapons and special rules, but an equal point value in dedicated MC killers will take one down pretty easily. An entire 40k-size army focusing on one will easily remove it in a single shooting phase.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Yet people genuinely believe that an RPG or other heavy weapon would one-shot a Primarch?

Yes. This is simple physics here, heavy weapons that turn tanks into smoking wrecks do even worse things to meat. The only way to have a primarch survive that kind of fire is if their bones/internal organs/etc are all made out of tank armor. And since we see primarchs that look like giant humans with normal human flesh/blood/etc it just isn't possible. Nitpick all you want about whether it would take an RPG or something heavier, but a battlefield is full of things that will do the job. And if all else fails there's always nukes/orbital bombardment/etc.

Stop being silly, guys.

Or we could stop being silly and taking the events literally. The most reasonable explanation is that the stories of the primarchs (and a lot of space marines in general) are in-universe propaganda and/or legends where events are wildly exaggerated for dramatic effect, when they aren't just being made up entirely.

 Peregrine wrote:
Yes. This is simple physics here

Fluff doesn't care about physics, not even a little bit. There are numerous feats within the fluff that show Primarchs easily taking damage that would destroy a tank and shrugging them off. Whether that's consistent with real-life or not is incredibly irrelevant. Welcome to Sci-Fi/Fantasy, the land where planets can talk and demons jump out of people's heads.

Furthermore, what you're arguing isn't "physics". Primarchs look they're wearing normal human skin so their skin must have X amount of durability" is not related to the field of physics at all.

Oh god, I hate this BL crap! Yes, in the past we had stories about Primarchs doing crazy things. Usually they were represented as legends from distant past and could be regarded as such to be be mythical representations of events. Now HH books have taken all that literally, and written Primarchs to be some lame superheroes that punch tanks and have bulletproof skin.

As for Emperor and the Ork, this never seemed strange to me. Ork bosses can be really huge and powerful so it makes sense one could threaten Emperor.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Fast-forward to the 41st millennium, how many Primarchs are around? Exactly. They obviously are not invulnerable.

You mean the 7 ones who are Daemon Princes + 1 who is missing/in disguise with other 4 who are missing + 1 who is sleeping in a fortress and the final one who is in stasis. I don't see that most of them are dead here....


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 Peregrine wrote:
An entire 40k-size army focusing on one will easily remove it in a single shooting phase.

And in the meantime his entire 40k army will blast your into oblivion while you are trying to kill just him.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Sorry, but Primarchs are explicitly at least on par with Greater Daemons, who explicitly can "smash through tanks". This isn't an instance of differing interpretations. This is an instance of you being wrong.

Actually it is a case of differing interpretations. I've not read, nor do I wish to read, the BL Horus Heresy books and I've no wish to delve into 30k. For me the Horus Heresy is a collection of myths, legends, extorted tales of deeds, heroism, darkness, woe, sacrifice, suffering and ultimately 'victory' for the Imperium & the God-Emperor. For me the Horus Heresy is shrouded in mystery, the tales of it bloated and exaggerated, the few names remembered, where they are remembered, are used to frighten children into obedience. The Primarch's, where people know of them, are seen as demi-Gods, the disciples of the great and holy God-Emperor, unmatched in battle, incredible leaders of humanity, strong and powerful individuals - and whilst they were powerful compared to humans/Astartes, the tales of their prowess are exaggerated for religious propaganda, when in reality they were incredibly powerful compared to a human or Astartes but not on par with Greater Daemons.

 Crimson wrote:
Oh god, I hate this BL crap! Yes, in the past we had stories about Primarchs doing crazy things. Usually they were represented as legends from distant past and could be regarded as such to be be mythical representations of events. Now HH books have taken all that literally, and written Primarchs to be some lame superheroes that punch tanks and have bulletproof skin.

Well said sir.

 Crimson wrote:
As for Emperor and the Ork, this never seemed strange to me. Ork bosses can be really huge and powerful so it makes sense one could threaten Emperor.

Well Gharkul Blackfang was an enormous Ork Warboss whom the Emperor struck down personally. Wasn't he about 30ft high or so?

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
they were incredibly powerful compared to a human or Astartes but not on par with Greater Daemons.

So why was Sanguinius then able to hold back 3 Legions + daemons for days all alone if he was so weak? ( Eternity Gate last stand )

 Peregrine wrote:

Yes. This is simple physics here, heavy weapons that turn tanks into smoking wrecks do even worse things to meat. The only way to have a primarch survive that kind of fire is if their bones/internal organs/etc are all made out of tank armor. And since we see primarchs that look like giant humans with normal human flesh/blood/etc it just isn't possible. Nitpick all you want about whether it would take an RPG or something heavier, but a battlefield is full of things that will do the job. And if all else fails there's always nukes/orbital bombardment/etc.

a b3ached whal3 wrote:
Until forgeworld release the rules for them, we will not have a clear answer.

I don't think 'in game' rules are a reliable representation of reality. They are an abstraction. For example: weapon ranges are only a a tiny fraction of what they should be. Vehicles also appear to move incredibly slowly relative to troops, even things like jet bikes and flyers would barely overtake a bicycle at top speed. Things in game have to be toned down and balanced out to make them playable.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
they were incredibly powerful compared to a human or Astartes but not on par with Greater Daemons.

So why was Sanguinius then able to hold back 3 Legions + daemons for days all alone if he was so weak? ( Eternity Gate last stand )

As I said, religious propaganda, one of the God-Emperor's disciples actions being exaggerated. I view it from the perspective of 40k, not the time when it happened. Don't forget that Greater Daemons are beings of PHENOMENAL power, the very physical & warp-infused manifestation of their God who can sunder entire planets on their own without effort - I just said that Primarch's, whilst powerful, are not as powerful as them.

Sorry but the idea of it all is just as stupid as superman getting shot in the eye in that terrible movie, I can buy a primarch never getting shot in the face or getting hit with what ever the feth because of his "experience" but I cant buy that if it happened they just shrug bullets and rockets to the face off, its to much for me even for scifi and even for poorly written scifi.

I don't mean to start a flame war, but I think this is simply the kind of thing, you open to interpretation. Some will say the primarch's are protected by luck, reflexes, and plot armour like me, because it makes them that much cooler when they still kick so much ass, despite not being immortal and indestructable.

Other's, will say that primarch's are essentially super saiyan. who can slap aside tankrounds, armwrestle with bloodthirsters, and carve through standard marines as if they were grot's

I personally find this interpretation well over the top, but if you like it, more power to you. This hobby is about enjoying it, and if that means different interpretations of the fluff, so be it

 vir6 wrote:
Sorry but the idea of it all is just as stupid as superman getting shot in the eye in that terrible movie, I can buy a primarch never getting shot in the face or getting hit with what ever the feth because of his "experience" but I cant buy that if it happened they just shrug bullets and rockets to the face off, its to much for me even for scifi and even for poorly written scifi.

My guess would be that a Primarch could easily lose an eye to a stray bullet or some such. But I don’t think such a wound would have a long term effect on a Primarch, as they can regenerate their flesh, bones and organs at a staggering speed.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
As I said, religious propaganda, one of the God-Emperor's disciples actions being exaggerated.

But the difference here is that is not propaganda but actual historical events as we as the 3'rd person ( read: readers of the story ) can actually see what happened. We also have the proof that they are much more powerful than grater daemons - Sanguinius broke back of Ka'Bandha - who is described as described as the mightiest of Khorne's servants ( codex: Blood Angels p. 18 ) and Fulgrim who chocked Avatar of Khaine to death with his bare hands ( Fulgrim ).

But this is pointless, people who think that Primarchs are weak will always think that even if GW themselves state that they are as powerful as gods and indestructible as black holes. People can have their own opinion on the matter but please do not place your personal opinion against other one's personal opinion - especially if fluff always go in the way of other one's personal opinon ( the one that says that Primarchs are living Gods ).

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
they were incredibly powerful compared to a human or Astartes but not on par with Greater Daemons.

So why was Sanguinius then able to hold back 3 Legions + daemons for days all alone if he was so weak? ( Eternity Gate last stand )

As I said, religious propaganda, one of the God-Emperor's disciples actions being exaggerated. I view it from the perspective of 40k, not the time when it happened. Don't forget that Greater Daemons are beings of PHENOMENAL power, the very physical & warp-infused manifestation of their God who can sunder entire planets on their own without effort - I just said that Primarch's, whilst powerful, are not as powerful as them.

Sanguinius' fight with Ka'Bandha seems to be quite firmly lodged in the canon, and has been long before BL existed. It is even mentioned in one of the 2nd edition short stories in the memories of a Chaos lord.

Also you have ask yourself if the Primarchs weren't at least as powerful as Greater Daemons, then why did the Emperor bother making them, and why did Chaos fear them so much? The whole thing only makes sense if you concede that they were also beings of PHENOMENAL power.


EDIT:
Also I think we should remember that primarchs probably recovered from most wounds in seconds (if regular marine healing is anything to go by). Penetrating shots to the head might be something they can struggle through.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:


But the difference here is that is not propaganda but actual historical events as we as the 3'rd person ( read: readers of the story ) can actually see what happened.

Perspective doesn't matter. We had this discussion on another thread yesterday. Odyssey is written from point of view of Odysseys, does not mean it is not a legend.

Here is what BL editor has to say on the subject:

"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Editor, Black Library

 Crimson wrote:
Here is what BL editor has to say on the subject:

"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne, Editor, Black Library

Which is essentially him copping out and refusing to commit to anything, in the event of bad continuity or things being revised. However since this board is about fluff. I think we need to accept the cannon as being truth, in order to discuss it. To turn up and say 'it's all lies' undermines the whole idea.