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Now that you all have your grubby little mits on the Daemon Codex, are you still mad Bro?
Personally, I think this codex is spectacular. I miss the poetry of the last Daemon codex's fluff writing, but in terms of a fun and interesting rule set, this one is absolutely wonderful.
I'd dare say, this book is right up there with his work on the last Orks book.
Thoughts?

It aint gonna fix all those issues in CSM, though some things are alright in it.

Still mad, but not much. Mostly because I sort of lost my expectations.

I didn't like the CSM book, and now that CD brings almost no synergy with it, doubles down on the random table-based mechanics and neglects 6+ years of amazing BL fluff, I see no reason to change my mind.

Of course, it may not be his fault. There could have been a GW suit over his shoulder going "Hey Phil, no swapping ICs between chaos battle brothers. It's icky. And don't go advancing no fluff either! It's still the 13th Black Crusade and nothing is ever resolved, got it?"

It's nowhere near as bad as Space Wolves or Dark Eldar, so I guess having Cruddace babysit him did help it.

 Sephyr wrote:

Of course, it may not be his fault. There could have been a GW suit over his shoulder going "Hey Phil, no swapping ICs between chaos battle brothers. It's icky. And don't go advancing no fluff either! It's still the 13th Black Crusade and nothing is ever resolved, got it?"

According to yakface, "the suits" don't do that. They have no creative input, since most of them simply don't care about what the design studio produce. An exception to this is certain new products - flyers and buildings in 6th, for example. Management don't explicitly say that their rules have to be powerful, but it's understood by the design studio that they do. That was my take on what yakface said, anyway.

I never was angry at kelly. The 5th ed. Dark Eldar Codex was the best codex GW has put out in quite a while.

This codex does not absolve him for the sin of the CSM codex.

I feel like small things demonstrate that he and Cruddace either fail at games design, or just don't care. Ambiguities of wording continue to crop up, and the Burning Chariot demonstrates either a fundamental lack of understanding of the rules or a continued inability to evaluate costs with any degree of reasonable logic.

I was never mad at him in the first place. From the sound of CSM players, they are just mad the new codex wasn't the auto-win the 3.5 edition apparently was. Yes there are problems with the codex no doubt (basic CSMs should be at least 1 point cheaper, either that or get VotLW standard) but you also get the most powerful flyer in the game that seriously rivals the vendetta for its Its a good (not great) codex that has enough variance to overcome most of its flaws.

Daemons on the other hand is an amazing codex that seems to have taken what was once the laughing stock army of 40k and make nearly all mono-god lists viable again, not just Tzeentch. The entire codex is saved from being potentially game-breaking by the Warp Storm table and Daemonic Instability. Overall a fun, fluffy, and with the right builds, scary good codex.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I was never mad at him in the first place. From the sound of CSM players, they are just mad the new codex wasn't the auto-win the 3.5 edition apparently was. Yes there are problems with the codex no doubt (basic CSMs should be at least 1 point cheaper, either that or get VotLW standard) but you also get the most powerful flyer in the game that seriously rivals the vendetta for its Its a good (not great) codex that has enough variance to overcome most of its flaws.

Daemons on the other hand is an amazing codex that seems to have taken what was once the laughing stock army of 40k and make nearly all mono-god lists viable again, not just Tzeentch. The entire codex is saved from being potentially game-breaking by the Warp Storm table and Daemonic Instability. Overall a fun, fluffy, and with the right builds, scary good codex.

No, that's not what people were upset about at all. People were upset that it was a bland codex, when it could have been so much better.

There is also nothing wrong with Mono-Tzeentch in the Daemon codex.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I was never mad at him in the first place. From the sound of CSM players, they are just mad the new codex wasn't the auto-win the 3.5 edition apparently was. Yes there are problems with the codex no doubt (basic CSMs should be at least 1 point cheaper, either that or get VotLW standard) but you also get the most powerful flyer in the game that seriously rivals the vendetta for its Its a good (not great) codex that has enough variance to overcome most of its flaws.

I'd trade the Helldrake for real cult terminators, a decent Land Raider and better single-legion support in a heartbeat and never look back, even if the change lost me every game from now until 7th edition.

Also, your points contradict each other. 'You guys are just mad your book is not OP, and your flyer is waaay too strong!"

The CSM book is less flexible than DA, GK (!) and even Necrons regarding the types or army it can actually field. That's my beef, not the fact that it can't point-and-click whole IG gunlines away.

Also, I agree that DE was the best codex in a long, long while before 6th sent it down the drain.

Only reason i'm sad, is my nurgle unit's are not as good as they were. Khorne got great again, but...eh, I've always been a bit of a Khorne-hater, might have to change my tune on it.

But, after playing it, I will admit, it's seriously fun to play, and my army isn't -bad-, it's just not as insanely good as it was

Plus, the one change that made me beyond happy? Having an army on the table turn one. I never got to see my army properly laid out before now with the deepstriking last book. So when I saw it, it was a little fangasm moment. I had a proper army

The Daemon book doesn't mean much to many CSM players, as that mistake will take yet another edition to rectify.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I was never mad at him in the first place. From the sound of CSM players, they are just mad the new codex wasn't the auto-win the 3.5 edition apparently was.

Then you obviously never actually read what people's issues actually were, or were very selective in what you paid attention to

The dark eldar codex is a master piece of a codex. The fluff is amazing and the discription of Commagh is suitably dark and enigmatic. All the units are good (Mandrakes who, i ain't heard of no mandrakes?) and the models are FANTASTIC. So no, im not mad at kelly, i revere him. Compare him to other codex's, grey knights are terribly designed and balanced and dont get me started on the fluff. Cruddance buffed IG into the stratasphere, you want him to write all the codex's?

I wont let ward touch my codex, as his armies are about making armies out of units. Kelly's (well, the DE and eldar at least) are about making units into armies.

Since the 40k and WHFB have pretty much the same crunch, just effecting their systems different, is it fair to say that Chaos Daemons as a whole was written by Kelly, Cruddace & Ward?

Chaos daemons look very interesting I am reserving my judgment on them til I play a few games with/against them.

As for the CSM codex, that was clearly a missed opportunity. With the HH series going strong and with 6 SM codex it surely was time to have a beefed up CSM with tons of character and special rules to make a Traitor Legion list.
Instead we got a bland book with some truly god awful units and some stupidly OP ones.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
The dark eldar codex is a master piece of a codex. The fluff is amazing and the discription of Commagh is suitably dark and enigmatic. All the units are good (Mandrakes who, i ain't heard of no mandrakes?) and the models are FANTASTIC. So no, im not mad at kelly, i revere him. Compare him to other codex's, grey knights are terribly designed and balanced and dont get me started on the fluff. Cruddance buffed IG into the stratasphere, you want him to write all the codex's?

I wont let ward touch my codex, as his armies are about making armies out of units. Kelly's (well, the DE and eldar at least) are about making units into armies.

To be fair, Kelly also wrote the abomination of the Space Wolves codex, and the IG codex that Cruddace wrote, its power rests on a few units, with much of the rest of the book being mediocre at best

Kelly also still has his major issue of "Must have vs OH GOD ITS HORRIBLE."

There's like no middle ground in his codex. There's good, and then there's Horrible.

The Dark Eldar codex is pretty balanced in my opinion, it's just that 6th ed doesn't seem to work well with it.



I don't think Phil wrote the IG book...

I have no idea why some people dislike Codex: CSM, but I've skipped a codex or 2 so I'm not intitled to give an opinion on that imho
I'm going to check out the Codex: CD tomorrow, and prolly gonna add it as an allied army to my Chaos Marines, all Khorne offcourse

I was a bit dubious about the new codex at first but after I played my first game with it last night, I like it. It didn't seem too powerful or too weak. In my opinion it's a very good codex. I just wish they didn't nerf skulltaker.

 edbradders wrote:
I was a bit dubious about the new codex at first but after I played my first game with it last night, I like it. It didn't seem too powerful or too weak. In my opinion it's a very good codex. I just wish they didn't nerf skulltaker.

I think that's one aspect that I really not to pleased with. Popular units from the last edition seem to have been unfairly nerfed to unless levels. I can understand that they want you to buy new models, that sucks but w/e it's GW business Style.
It nerfs like what happened to Blood Crushers, Flamers, Skulltaker, Epi, The Changling etc that make great units into either worthless or stupidly over costed.

I think of it like this, he did 1 bad codex. How many bad or fethed up or op codexs has he shall not be named done

theninjabadger wrote:
I think of it like this, he did 1 bad codex. How many bad or fethed up or op codexs has he shall not be named done

Lets see.

Eldar (4th edition skimmerspam)
Space Wolves

vs

Necrons
Grey knights (5th edition paladins/purifiers)

About equal really.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

theninjabadger wrote:
I think of it like this, he did 1 bad codex. How many bad or fethed up or op codexs has he shall not be named done

Lets see.

Eldar (4th edition skimmerspam)
Space Wolves

vs

Necrons
Grey knights (5th edition paladins/purifiers)

About equal really.

True Kelly has done some real head scratchers. But no one matches the nuttiness that is Cruddance.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
From the sound of CSM players, they are just mad the new codex wasn't the auto-win the 3.5 edition apparently was.

That is 100% the reason behind their complaints.

theninjabadger wrote:
I think of it like this, he did 1 bad codex. How many bad or fethed up or op codexs has he shall not be named done

I wasn't aware that the fail-a-thon of Chaos 3.5, Eldar 4th, Space Wolves and Dark Eldar 5th and CSM 6th were counted as one Codex only.

Oh.. and DreadFleet!

 Harriticus wrote:
I never was angry at kelly. The 5th ed. Dark Eldar Codex was the best codex GW has put out in quite a while.

what? The 6th edition DE codex is crap. So many broken units


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
From the sound of CSM players, they are just mad the new codex wasn't the auto-win the 3.5 edition apparently was.

That is 100% the reason behind their complaints.

not at all the reason behind my complaints


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
The dark eldar codex is a master piece of a codex. All the units are good (Mandrakes who, i ain't heard of no mandrakes?) and the models are FANTASTIC.

Mandrakes
Archon Court
Hellions
Scourges
Cronos
Bloodbrides
Grotesques
Haemi Ancients
MANDRAKES

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

theninjabadger wrote:
I think of it like this, he did 1 bad codex. How many bad or fethed up or op codexs has he shall not be named done

Lets see.

Eldar (4th edition skimmerspam)
Space Wolves

vs

Necrons
Grey knights (5th edition paladins/purifiers)

About equal really.

You can't blame Kelly for Eldar since the entire book was re-written on him after he went on a 3 month sabatical. He was actually really ped-off when he found out later on that Jervis/Alessio had gone and done a completely new direction on his codex.
So really, if you're going to blame Kelly for Eldar, then add Jervis & Alessio's names above his.

So really, the only 'fail' codex Kelly's produced was 5th ed SW's since they played the mech-spam game better than most AND had a pair of undercosted units.
Orks, Dark Eldar, CSM's & Daemons are all roughly on an even playing field against eachother. I'd rather face any of those than the tripe like GK or Necron spam which is simply annoying and feels like I'm being trolled.


The new Daemons are great fun!
I love the fact that my army doesn't feth me over on a single dice roll any more, and there's few if any real 'OMG! Must spam x1000000!!!" nor any real terds.

Flamers are still brutal in big squads btw. I don't give a flying fart what you are - if you're T4 and taking 7-9 templates to the face, things are gonna die in droves! If anyone is upset that Flamers are no longer an instant beatstick vs everything, then too bad for them - they were broken with Breath + Eternal Warrior and multiple wounds.
Likewise, Screamers still have a good role to play, you simply can't throw them into power fists anymore and not care. But they still cause a good amount of hits with their slash attacks when they move, they're difficult to shoot down due to Jink+Daemon of Tzeentch and they ca neat vehicles/kill off non-S8 2+ saves with reliability. What more could you want?!

The new Warpstorm table is a blast! I don't care if there's a 2% chance that it might do something horrible to me. It's nowhere near as crippling and fethed up as our old crappy 'Daemonic Assault' rules that had a solid 33% chance to screw you over!
And if some people can't stand it? Well, tough luck mate - it's a big part of the background of what happens when large numbers of Daemons break through into the material realm. It's about time GW made Daemons what they should be - chaotic!

theninjabadger wrote:
I think of it like this, he did 1 bad codex. How many bad or fethed up or op codexs has he shall not be named done

Kelly also did 4E Eldar, which, for their time, were pretty ridiculous until 5E rolled around and re-did the skimmer and LoS rules and re-balanced non-skimmer tanks.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
From the sound of CSM players, they are just mad the new codex wasn't the auto-win the 3.5 edition apparently was.

That is 100% the reason behind their complaints.

/sigh...

One day people will bother to actually read the issues people have with the book. But it is not this day...

I genuinely do not understand the DE hate here. I think that it may be the best codex GW has ever released. The units fit the theme, things are generally very well internally balanced, and the army works cohesively.

What's so awful about that?