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easysauce wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
But the model was on the board that turn.

the model is in on the board at the beginning of the turn.

it is is ongoing reserves before the turn ends, it is therefor in ongoing reserves before vector strike is allowed to trigger

what actions are you allowed to perform in ongoing reserves?

Moving is the action that allows the model to Vector Strike. the criteria has been met, therefore the action happens.

AH but the special rule was triggered before the end of the movement , it is carried out at the end of the phase. It is resolved while the model is in ongoing reserves.
Similar to how an interceptor can shoot at models who's movement onto the board happened within it's range.

What actions are you allowed to preform when a FMC moves over a unit?

Yes, so although it is resolved after the model is off the table, the trigger has already occured. Meaning all conditions have been met and you are clear to resolve the action.

@ Rigeld, I just wonder is LOS needed here?
This isn't a shooting attack we can all agree but the wording on Out of Sight is very restrictive.

"If no models in the firing unit can see a particular model,..."

This would lead me to believe that restriction only applies to shooting attacks. I'd actually like to hear a counter to this if you have one. It seems that everyone assumes attacks are either cc or shooting and must follow the rules of shooting if they are not cc.

I understand people use a misquote of page 22 to justify that all attacks need los as "Attacks in close combat work like shots in shooting-..." but the rest of the paragraph explains what that means. I can think of a few examples where a model in a unit can strike blows but not draw los in cc such as combat spilling around corners and through terrain.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
@ Rigeld, I just wonder is LOS needed here?
This isn't a shooting attack we can all agree but the wording on Out of Sight is very restrictive.

"If no models in the firing unit can see a particular model,..."

This would lead me to believe that restriction only applies to shooting attacks. I'd actually like to hear a counter to this if you have one. It seems that everyone assumes attacks are either cc or shooting and must follow the rules of shooting if they are not cc.

Find permission to allocate wounds if its not either a CC or shooting attack.

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
@ Rigeld, I just wonder is LOS needed here?
This isn't a shooting attack we can all agree but the wording on Out of Sight is very restrictive.

"If no models in the firing unit can see a particular model,..."

This would lead me to believe that restriction only applies to shooting attacks. I'd actually like to hear a counter to this if you have one. It seems that everyone assumes attacks are either cc or shooting and must follow the rules of shooting if they are not cc.

Find permission to allocate wounds if its not either a CC or shooting attack.

Find restrictions on allocating wounds that aren't CC or shooting attacks.

 Grey Templar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Vector Strike occurs.
Hits are generated.
Wound pool is populated.

What happens when a wound pool is populated but no line of sight can be drawn?

Normally they are discarded as you need LoS to allocate, however Vector Strike uses random allocation. Which bypasses the LoS requirement.

It doesn't bypass LoS at all actually.

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
@ Rigeld, I just wonder is LOS needed here?
This isn't a shooting attack we can all agree but the wording on Out of Sight is very restrictive.

"If no models in the firing unit can see a particular model,..."

This would lead me to believe that restriction only applies to shooting attacks. I'd actually like to hear a counter to this if you have one. It seems that everyone assumes attacks are either cc or shooting and must follow the rules of shooting if they are not cc.

Find permission to allocate wounds if its not either a CC or shooting attack.

Gets hot, perils, wounds from shooting at buildings, wounds from mysterious forests.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
@ Rigeld, I just wonder is LOS needed here?
This isn't a shooting attack we can all agree but the wording on Out of Sight is very restrictive.

"If no models in the firing unit can see a particular model,..."

This would lead me to believe that restriction only applies to shooting attacks. I'd actually like to hear a counter to this if you have one. It seems that everyone assumes attacks are either cc or shooting and must follow the rules of shooting if they are not cc.

Find permission to allocate wounds if its not either a CC or shooting attack.

Find restrictions on allocating wounds that aren't CC or shooting attacks.

You have that backwards. There is permission and instructions on allocating wounds for shooting and CC. Vector Strike uses random allocation - which is defined where exactly?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
AH but the special rule was triggered before the end of the movement , it is carried out at the end of the phase. It is resolved while the model is in ongoing reserves.
Similar to how an interceptor can shoot at models who's movement onto the board happened within it's range.

What actions are you allowed to preform when a FMC moves over a unit?

except you do actually get to use vector strike at the "end" of the movement phase, not after you move over a unit
seriously,
now this is in circles, you are trying to assert that vector strike is not triggered at the "end" of the movement phase.

IF the special rule is triggered, its target must be a model you moved over,

the rule is NOT triggered immediately after moving over the target, that is a completely different wording then the rulebook.

IF vector strike did say nominate a unit you have moved over after the drake has moved, then yes, you could actually say that the special rule is at least triggered at the SAME time as the unit entering ongoing reserves, and as the controlling player choose what to do first.

but that is not when VS says it happens, it says it happens at the end, after its too late and the model is already bound by the ongoing reserves rule.

you are in ongoing reserves before the end of your movement phase, that is a fact

vector strike occurs at the END of the movement phase, assuming you have a model that can use it.

with only one specifically defined action open to you by that special rule, your options whilst in ongoing reserves are limited


and there has been nothing quoted giving permission to do anything but arrive next turn.


if you trigger/resolve vector strike after you moved over the unit, you have done it before then end of the phase, which is not when it tells you to do VS

at the end of the phase? the rules say its done at the end of the phase, nominating a unit it passed over doesn't mean passing over that unit triggered vector strike, it just means that is the target if/when vector strike is triggered.

so please stop saying that flying over the unit triggers VS, it does not,

and a unit in ongoing reserves before the end of the turn is bound by the ongoing reserves special rules, before it gets a chance to use the vector strike rule

it is not given permission to use special powers, move, shoot, change flight modes.

we know for a fact that the FMC.drake enters ongoing reserves, leaving play before VS can be triggered

pg 125 brb

if a unit enters ongoing reserves part way through the game, such as a flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering ongoing reserves. Units in ongoing reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player's following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for reserves.

you are literally saying models not in play get to use special rules while in ongoing reserves,

back that up with a rule saying you can.

repetition of vector strike occurring before then end of the turn is not backed up by the rules.

Has a model with vector strike moved over a unit? Yes
Is there any other restriction? If so page number.

Vector strike does occur before the end of the turn. The rules say it happens at the end of the movement phase.
We have two rules here that do not interact. The reserves rule is a restriction on what you can do while in reserve and when not in play but the fmc in this case was in play and was not in reserve when it fulfilled the condition of the rule. I have a model that can VS it was the one that moved over your unit and went into ongoing reserves.

Look at it this way. You have permission to enter ongoing reserves and to make vector strikes when moving. You have permission to preform either and no restrictions on preform both.

You're argument is that because units usually do not enter reserves and have a special rule effect the board that this act breaks the restrictions imposed on units when entering play.
Do you see the disconnect there?

Is there a rule stating abilities must be resolved even when the conditions as such that the rule cannot occur anymore?

Such as it is, if the model is not on the field anymore and not in play and unable to do anything in reserve, can it complete the action or ability it was attempting to use? If so, how does it do so? Is that specific rule or ability able to ignore the more generic rule of what reserves allow models to do?

In short, can a Vector Strike occur when the model does not exist in play anymore given it leaves play while executing that action by going to reserves?

Or alteratively, what allows a model to start a Vector Strike in play but finish it from Reserves? Yes the model has not been killed and can come back, but can it still affect things on the field as it is doing an action?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Has a model with vector strike moved over a unit? Yes
Is there any other restriction? If so page number.

yes the fmc must both be zooming, and be able to use the special rule at the end of the turn

the FMC is unable to use special rules due to being in ongoing reserves before the end of the turn.

again, you are equating moving over the target, as the trigger, it is not.

You nominate a unit as a result of vector strike, moving over a unit is not the CAUSE of vector strike, it is the targeting method. which can only be used when the special rule itself can be,

the restriction is the model has the rule ongoing reserves applied to it before the vector strike rule is allowed to be used,

why does repeating "the model has moved over a unit" suddenly make the special rule used prior to when the rules say it does?

@ Warone
Well specific rules do override general restrictions, the issue I see is that there are no rules to deal with the case of a model entering ongoing reserves and it's exit having an effect in and of itself.
The rules are not well rounded in this part. The only restrictions placed on a fmc in ongoing reserves is that it cannot change mode nor can it use special rules that come into effect at the start of the turn it re-enters play.

So the end result is that it is ambiguous whether a model can actually finish a Vector Strike. Models leaving play stop doing the things they were doing when they left play unless the reserve rules state somewhere that an ability or characteristic of the model remains changed from when it was in play.

Too bad this is not as clear cut as say charging and Overwatch wherein if a model dies to Overwatch while charging, it cannot complete the charge action.

easysauce wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Has a model with vector strike moved over a unit? Yes
Is there any other restriction? If so page number.

yes the fmc must both be zooming, and be able to use the special rule at the end of the turn

the FMC is unable to use special rules due to being in ongoing reserves before the end of the turn.

again, you are equating moving over the target, as the trigger, it is not.

You nominate a unit as a result of vector strike, nominating a unit is not the CAUSE of vector strike.

you do NOT vector strike as a result of passing over the unit, you vector strike as the result of using the special rule vector strike at the end of the movement phase

Firstly a FMC doesn't zoom. End of the turn? Really? It doesn't say that. Again it says end of movement phase.
So the result of being moved over by a VS model is being nominated? Does that mean that the movement is the cause?
Well yes the rule is resolved at the end of the phase. I said that, ages ago. I'm still failing to see how the restriction on using special rules at the start of next turns movement phase applies.
You seem to get less concise as this goes on please clean up your points so they are easier to understand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WarOne wrote:
So the end result is that it is ambiguous whether a model can actually finish a Vector Strike. Models leaving play stop doing the things they were doing when they left play unless the reserve rules state somewhere that an ability or characteristic of the model remains changed from when it was in play.

Too bad this is not as clear cut as say charging and Overwatch wherein if a model dies to Overwatch while charging, it cannot complete the charge action.

Yes I do agree it is left in a poor situation by the rules. It is somewhat a case of "the rules don't say I cannot" because there is no real restriction but one you can easily read into the rules. Easysauce refers to the restrictions on units entering play from reserves but I am unconvinced that is enough.

Without a specific rule restriction other than reserves stating what models can and cannot do, is there any FAQs out there that mention what happens to models as they enter reserve while performing an action or using an ability?

@Warone. Not that I've seen.

Also @rigeld2,
what is your opinion of the cases where you allocate wounds but not as per shooting or cc?

Is the use of "firing unit" in out of sight not restrictive?
I am actually interested in your answer.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Also @rigeld2,
what is your opinion of the cases where you allocate wounds but not as per shooting or cc?

Examples?

Is the use of "firing unit" in out of sight not restrictive?
I am actually interested in your answer.

No, it's not. Just like shooting isn't restricted to the shooting phase.

Seems like this issue has arisen several times before.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/509566.page

This is the last one and the debate ended before it got good. However it does help put different perspectives on similar points made.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
@ Warone
Well specific rules do override general restrictions, the issue I see is that there are no rules to deal with the case of a model entering ongoing reserves and it's exit having an effect in and of itself.
The rules are not well rounded in this part. The only restrictions placed on a fmc in ongoing reserves is that it cannot change mode nor can it use special rules that come into effect at the start of the turn it re-enters play.

we all know the rules say you cant do much when you arrive from reserves,

but why is it that we can not use special rules at the beginning of a turn it enters from reserves if those special rules trigger at the beginning too?

because at the beginning of the turn, it was in reserves, and models in reserves cant do anything except roll to arrive, or arrive.


what are you allowed to do when you are actually in reserves?

are you allowed to do MORE then when you have just left reserves?

if so please quote these permissions given in reserves/ongoing reserves that let you do anything other then roll or arrive from reserves,

arriving from reserves gives you permission to move, shoot, and reminds you were not actually in play at the beginning of the turn, hence no beginning of turn special rules.

but the parts of the turn where you are in play, you do get to use the special rules triggered at that time.




so why is ongoing reserves more permissive then arriving from reserves, despite having less permitted actions?

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Also @rigeld2,
what is your opinion of the cases where you allocate wounds but not as per shooting or cc?

Examples?

Gets hot, perils, wounds caused by glances and pens on buildings, wounds causes by mystery terrain.

Is the use of "firing unit" in out of sight not restrictive?
I am actually interested in your answer.

No, it's not. Just like shooting isn't restricted to the shooting phase.

Why isn't it? Wounds in cc should not have this restriction as there is no "firing unit". There is an attacking unit but you don't fire in cc.

easysauce wrote:



so why is ongoing reserves more permissive then arriving from reserves, despite having less permitted actions?

Does all special abilities and actions end when models re-enter active reserves? This may have pertinence as models that have actions or abilities with lingering effects on the field may not be able to maintain these effects anymore due to the requirement of them being unable to do anything while back in reserves.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Also @rigeld2,
what is your opinion of the cases where you allocate wounds but not as per shooting or cc?

Examples?

Gets hot, perils, wounds caused by glances and pens on buildings, wounds causes by mystery terrain.

Has its own rules, has its own rules, has its own rules, have their own rules.
Everything you mentioned works fine because they explain in their own rules section how to allocate wounds.

Is the use of "firing unit" in out of sight not restrictive?
I am actually interested in your answer.

No, it's not. Just like shooting isn't restricted to the shooting phase.

Shooting isn't restricted to the shooting phase but wound allocation isn't restricted to one method only.

Vector Strike uses random allocation. Where is that found?

Fine. Yes it is in the shooting but if it's not a shooting attack why do you impose out of sight? There is no firing unit. Would extatic seizures (the slanneshi csm power) not be able to wound models out of LOS even though beyond the first model there is no shooting requirements? Also you missed the edit above.

The conventional wisdom is there is only 1 way to allocate wounds. This isn't true.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Fine. Yes it is in the shooting but if it's not a shooting attack why do you impose out of sight? There is no firing unit. Would extatic seizures (the slanneshi csm power) not be able to wound models out of LOS even though beyond the first model there is no shooting requirements? Also you missed the edit above.

We impose Out of Sight because we aren't told not to. There's a wound pool, agreed? Why are you trying to use some rules but not others when there's no guidance on which ones to use?

Wounds in CC don't have this restriction because CC tells you how to allocate wounds - and it doesn't include the shooting methods.

The conventional wisdom is there is only 1 way to allocate wounds. This isn't true.

That's not the conventional wisdom at all. I'm not sure why you say that.

Well the last four words in out of sight are a clue the don't apply when it's not a shooting attack.
I think that is guidance enough.
Since vector strike is not a shooting attack there is no cause for it to apply.

Page 15, emptied wound pool. According to you this also does not apply and therefore the attack never ends. Congratulations on breaking the game.

 WarOne wrote:

easysauce wrote:



so why is ongoing reserves more permissive then arriving from reserves, despite having less permitted actions?

Does all special abilities and actions end when models re-enter active reserves? This may have pertinence as models that have actions or abilities with lingering effects on the field may not be able to maintain these effects anymore due to the requirement of them being unable to do anything while back in reserves.

the special rule does not end, it does not go off in the first place since it cant be used from ongoing reserves

doesnt affect cases where the model actually uses the special rule before leaving the board via ongoing reserves, or when a psyker casts something and dies before the full turn is up

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 15, emptied wound pool. According to you this also does not apply and therefore the attack never ends. Congratulations on breaking the game.

I was hoping to get an adult response from you on this but if you want to play that game then fine.
Where does the random method dictate the attack as a shooting attack?