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I remember reading that in the 5th SM Codex... the UM were far from the fighting, and as a result survived largely intact, and this is why so many chapters use their geneseed.

I've just finished Betrayer, I also read Know no Fear, and I've listened to the Garro Audiobooks.

Is it just me, or has the HH superseded the fluff in the SM codex, to the point where it really should be "The Ultramarines had maybe about 1/5 of their strength left, but that was more than most" or something, because its all been grim for the boys in blue so far in my book, including the top man (Robutte) very narrowly escaping with his neck as well!

40k fluff contradicting itself isn't exactly a new development.

 mattyrm wrote:
I remember reading that in the 5th SM Codex... the UM were far from the fighting, and as a result survived largely intact, and this is why so many chapters use their geneseed.

I've just finished Betrayer, I also read Know no Fear, and I've listened to the Garro Audiobooks.

Is it just me, or has the HH superseded the fluff in the SM codex, to the point where it really should be "The Ultramarines had maybe about 1/5 of their strength left, but that was more than most" or something, because its all been grim for the boys in blue so far in my book, including the top man (Robutte) very narrowly escaping with his neck as well!

It was always just about 23 'Chapters confirmed as of Gullimans geneseed at secound founding When GW upgraded the Legion sizes they got some room to add a few casualties in the HH.
So the current line may be: the Ultramarines suffered from an ambush at Calth but as a whole could easily replace these losses. After the Heresy they had to decrease their output of new marines because the codex they started to love too much said so.

I guess the key word is 'relatively.'

Relative to who? The Raven Guard, The Salamanders, the Iron Hands?

Or how about the Imperial Fists on Terra, or the Blood Angels who also had to deal with Signus Prime.

Know No Fear was a disaster, a horrible ambush but, perhaps, relatively few actual Ultramarines died? When talking in scales of 10's or 100's of thousands of marines, compared to the millions upon millions of Army and Navy personnel that were killed, plus the infrastructure and assets, it could still be a major disaster without having half the legion dying.

From the way the Unremembered Empire is sounding like it's shaping up, Gulliman probably did stay back out of the way and focus on building up a bunch of new marines for the Imperium Secundus.

 Compel wrote:
I guess the key word is 'relatively.'

Relative to who? The Raven Guard, The Salamanders, the Iron Hands?

Or how about the Imperial Fists on Terra, or the Blood Angels who also had to deal with Signus Prime.

Know No Fear was a disaster, a horrible ambush but, perhaps, relatively few actual Ultramarines died? When talking in scales of 10's or 100's of thousands of marines, compared to the millions upon millions of Army and Navy personnel that were killed, plus the infrastructure and assets, it could still be a major disaster without having half the legion dying.

From the way the Unremembered Empire is sounding like it's shaping up, Gulliman probably did stay back out of the way and focus on building up a bunch of new marines for the Imperium Secundus.

Yeah Its unclear, in Betrayer Kharn ponders over just how much gear and manpower Gulliman has managed to square away, as if he has an insane amount of ordnance and manpower, but at the same time, Calth seemed to be crazy, Id have guessed that tens of thousands of Ultramarines died there.

Who knows, its mentioned several times how much larger his Legion is because he is so on the ball whilst Angron and Lorgar are fething about with violence and praying.. maybe the UM legion was far far larger than anybody knew in regards to all the other ones?

It has never been, "These are the 23 second founding chapters."It has always been, "these are the 23 second founding chapters that a) we know of and b) that managed to survive to M41 without being wiped out or corrupted. There might've been two hundred Ultramarine second founding chapters at the end of the Heresy.

With this kind of stuff, it's important to remember that the greatest academy of archeology at the height of the great crusade was proud to have the complete works of William Shakespeare, all three plays of it.

Ward being Ward. Ultramarines can never suffer or have any setbacks.

 Harriticus wrote:
Ward being Ward. Ultramarines can never suffer or have any setbacks.

This.

 Thatguy91 wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Ward being Ward. Ultramarines can never suffer or have any setbacks.

This.

Except for having all their first company eaten by tyranids.

Also can we cut out the ward dislike at this point.

It is important to understand that the current Horus Heresy series from The Black Library completely disregards all previous fluff.

Nothing you have read in a previously published codex will line up with what the books have.

It isn't worth trying to figure out how these ideas mesh, because the fluff you're reading in the novels is entirely new. They aren't expanding the Horus Heresy, they are completely reinventing it and telling an entirely new version of it.

 Harriticus wrote:
Ward being Ward. Ultramarines can never suffer or have any setbacks.

Try to keep your Moron Level to an absolute minimum.

The Ultramarines emerging relatively unscathed from the Horus Heresy dates back to 2nd Edition's Codex: Ultramarines and was written by Rick Priestley, not Mat Ward. In fact, 90% of the fluff people blame on Mat Ward wasn't created by Mat Ward, lol.

He's right... no need to blame Ward for the sins of his fathers. He's got a large enough list of his own.

But seriously, this is not one of his. I'd hold him more accountable for the trash that is the new Necron Codex, or the hilarity that is the GK. But blaming him for the Ultramarines is unwarranted. GW definitely has a soft spot of the boys in blue, but it's their world so they can like whatever they want.

I'll continue playing actual loyalist chapters and continue to regard the Ultramarines as sleeper heretics until GW tells me that I can't play anymore

Well you would have to know what the Ultramarines did between the fighting around Calth untill the Siege of Terra. In Betrayer they are fighting the World Eaters, who later fought on Terra, but the Ultramarines didnt. Maybe they just fought the initial battles and then just replenished their numbers while policing the eastern Imperium (the codex does mention they have a great recruitment system). That would explain the casulties on Calth and the later remarks about being relatively unscathed.

Yo deciple, it tells us at the end of betrayer why the ultras can't chase the traitors out of ultramar, it's the warp storm created by all the deaths in the ultramar system to date, it was created specifically to trap them there.

But we are left with a few holes, first how did the world eaters get out, they arent really in tune with the warp at that moment (you could say the Word Bearers helped). Second why did the warp storm end early enough to have the Ultramarines threaten the siege for Horus, speeding up events and leading to his death? The warp storms are all a bit convinient, but when needed the most they fail?

I'd say it's a bit too early to answer all that.

As of the end of Betrayer, I don't think the World Eaters have much to fear about the warp storms...

Also, it's been suggested that in Shadows of Treachery and Fear to Tread that Gulliman has been doing some funky stuff with making some kind of mini Astronomicon. Maybe he ends up using that to break through.

I think a lot will be explained in the Unremembered Empire arc.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Thatguy91 wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Ward being Ward. Ultramarines can never suffer or have any setbacks.

This.

Except for having all their first company, third, fourth, and 8th companies eaten by tyranids.

Also can we cut out the ward dislike at this point.

fix'd it for you. Man, you people need to read up. The ultramarines lost a ton of troops including a few ancients. (honorguard)

jareddm wrote:
It has never been, "These are the 23 second founding chapters."It has always been, "these are the 23 second founding chapters that a) we know of and b) that managed to survive to M41 without being wiped out or corrupted. There might've been two hundred Ultramarine second founding chapters at the end of the Heresy.

No, it is stated that there were 23 UM second founding chapters in total. All of them are not known, but the number of them is.

 Crimson wrote:

jareddm wrote:
It has never been, "These are the 23 second founding chapters."It has always been, "these are the 23 second founding chapters that a) we know of and b) that managed to survive to M41 without being wiped out or corrupted. There might've been two hundred Ultramarine second founding chapters at the end of the Heresy.

No, it is stated that there were 23 UM second founding chapters in total. All of them are not known, but the number of them is.

That exact 23 number is no longer valid. It's predicated upon the old legion sizes of 10,000, where having 23 successor chapters signaled the Ultramrines larger size of more than 20,000.

With the new legion average size at 100,000 only 23 Successors from the Ultramarines is obviously ridiculous. Infact the grey Knight codex informs us that there where some where in the region of 400 second founding chapters. The various legions being able to stump up 400,000 marines seems much more in keeping with the new fluff.

@ the op

Calth was indeed a disaster for the Ultramarines. They lost between 100,000 and 200,000 men.

That said they were also in the enviable position of being able to replace those losses fair easier than the other Legions. With the empire of Ultramar they had vastly greater resources, infrastructure and manpower.

The Ultramarines, given the chance could therefore rebuild in short order, which given Guilliman's contingency plans for an Imperium Secundus and the lacking battle record for the rest of the heresy it seems they stayed out of it and rebuilt.

So by the time the heresy ends and the Emperor in fact still lives and the Imperium still stands the Ultramarines are able to commence the scouring almost single-handedly, being far, far larger than any of the surviving legions and therefore in fact emerging from the heresy 'relatively unscathed'.

23 is from the latest marine codex.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Thatguy91 wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Ward being Ward. Ultramarines can never suffer or have any setbacks.

This.

Except for having all their first company, third, fourth, and 8th companies eaten by tyranids.

Also can we cut out the ward dislike at this point.

fix'd it for you. Man, you people need to read up. The ultramarines lost a ton of troops including a few ancients. (honorguard)

You forgot the 7th. Fabian led the 3rd and 7th then blew the face off a Tyrant, most badass moment of the BfM.

As for the losses and coming out unscathed; There's 500 worlds in Ultramar circa M31 now, the planet in Betrayer is stated as being a world purely for supplying the XIII in arms and men ect. That's one planet turning out thousands of marines (hypothetically), add in the other 499 worlds doing a bit of recruiting too, there's plenty of time to recover losses during the 7 years between the HH and the 2nd founding, even taking into account the worlds lost.

 Crimson wrote:
23 is from the latest marine codex.

Which was still written before the average legion size had become 100,000 so my point still stands. Besides the Grey Knight codex is a later codex and also supports me.

 rems01 wrote:

Which was still written before the average legion size had become 100,000 so my point still stands.

Was it? It is from 2008, right? I though mega-legions were older than that...

Besides the Grey Knight codex is a later codex and also supports me.

Well, never do not automatically override older. Granted, 23 sounds too few, but on the other hand 400 second founding chapter (even in total) seems way too many. Second founding chapters are rare, but this would mean that being a second founding chapter would be exceedingly common.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Thatguy91 wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Ward being Ward. Ultramarines can never suffer or have any setbacks.

This.

Except for having all their first company, third, fourth, and 8th companies eaten by tyranids.

Also can we cut out the ward dislike at this point.

fix'd it for you. Man, you people need to read up. The ultramarines lost a ton of troops including a few ancients. (honorguard)

You forgot the 7th. Fabian led the 3rd and 7th then blew the face off a Tyrant, most badass moment of the BfM.

As for the losses and coming out unscathed; There's 500 worlds in Ultramar circa M31 now, the planet in Betrayer is stated as being a world purely for supplying the XIII in arms and men ect. That's one planet turning out thousands of marines (hypothetically), add in the other 499 worlds doing a bit of recruiting too, there's plenty of time to recover losses during the 7 years between the HH and the 2nd founding, even taking into account the worlds lost.

True. I forgot about the 7th. That tale has been my favorite. (read the original adeptus astartes battle of macragge which definitely shows the age of GW's writing when it was fantastic.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 rems01 wrote:

Which was still written before the average legion size had become 100,000 so my point still stands.

Was it? It is from 2008, right? I though mega-legions were older than that...

Besides the Grey Knight codex is a later codex and also supports me.

Well, never do not automatically override older. Granted, 23 sounds too few, but on the other hand 400 second founding chapter (even in total) seems way too many. Second founding chapters are rare, but this would mean that being a second founding chapter would be exceedingly common.

numbers were never factored in until recently. during the 4th ed. It was believed to be around 30,000 at the time. Now we know.

 Crimson wrote:

 rems01 wrote:

Which was still written before the average legion size had become 100,000 so my point still stands.

Was it? It is from 2008, right? I though mega-legions were older than that...

Besides the Grey Knight codex is a later codex and also supports me.

Well, never do not automatically override older. Granted, 23 sounds too few, but on the other hand 400 second founding chapter (even in total) seems way too many. Second founding chapters are rare, but this would mean that being a second founding chapter would be exceedingly common.

No legion sizes were agreed upon post A Thousand Sons which came out in 2010. It ridiculous that it took that long really, you'd have thought it was one of those details that would have been hammered down at the start.

400 is still less than half the current overall number and i'm sure that some of those would have been destroyed/lost in the warp etc over the years. Remember that the Second Founding was far and away the largest founding, most of the others were in resposne to specific needs or threats and much smaller in size.

400 Second founding Chapters means there were 400,000 legionaries. Given at full strength there would have been around a million loyalist marines, there being 400,000 (200,000 or so being Ultramarines) at the end of the scouring seems about right. It means the other 8 legions had an average of 25,000 each (With the Dark Angels and Space Wolves on the larger end of the scale) which seems to fit given the horrific casualty rates they must have suffered at the Drop Site Massacares and the Seige of Terra.

 Crimson wrote:

jareddm wrote:
It has never been, "These are the 23 second founding chapters."It has always been, "these are the 23 second founding chapters that a) we know of and b) that managed to survive to M41 without being wiped out or corrupted. There might've been two hundred Ultramarine second founding chapters at the end of the Heresy.

No, it is stated that there were 23 UM second founding chapters in total. All of them are not known, but the number of them is.

Ultramarines IA: "According to the oldest known copy of the Codex Astartes, the so-called Apocrypha of Skaros, the Ultramarines were split into twenty-three Chapters, but it does not name them all."

Note the Apocrypha of Skaros is dated to a thousand years after the Heresy, there's no reason it should be any more accurate than the Apocrypha of Davio which only names 8 Primogenitors. A lot of people (including some GW writers) place far too much faith in the Apocrypha of Skaros. If it was reliable it wouldn't be called an http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apocrypha

I know, Quintus, but the numbers are eight and 23. There is a quite jump to few hundred from either.

Quite a jump but not an unbelievable one given the discrepancy of one existing source having almost triple the number as another source.

Depending on geneseed stores and availability of veterans I'd imagine part of the Second Founding also consisted of "new" Chapters. It would fit Guilliman's idea of splitting up the Legions - new Chapters that had no loyalty at all to any known First Founding. So 23 known UM successors and an unknown amount of UM-descended new Chapters.

HH series is it's own universe that is not the same as the main 40k setting. They've stated this numerous times. The only cannon fork 40k comes from the rulebooks and army books.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
HH series is it's own universe that is not the same as the main 40k setting. They've stated this numerous times. The only cannon fork 40k comes from the rulebooks and army books.

Even though I'd very much like this to be true, I'm pretty sure it isn't.