Small VC Army to begin learning WHFB

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**xspire**

Hey guys, I need some advice and suggestions on building up a small VC army, roughly 500-800 points in order to start learning WHFB.

The points aren't really that important as long as it's within the range as it will be a friendly learning environment. There needs to be around 250 points of core and atleast 1 hero choice.

What I had in mind was 250 points of skeletons, and a vampire, but I'm not really sure on what else to get.

Preferably I would like to invest in something that I will be able to use after I have a grasp of the basics, and possibly even in small 800-1000 tournaments (they are run almost monthly).

Also I don't want to get something too powerful that will crush everyone elses chances of learning the game properly at the FLGS.

**Ironburn**

I was going to create a similar thread. I've been thinking about a VC army since we have a slow grow league starting in April. I'm new to WHFB and want to play something that isn't absolutely terrible but is still fun and can win a few games. Here is what I came up with for 500 points.

Necromancer, Level 2, Dispel Scroll. Lore of Vampires (125)
18 Crypt Ghouls (180)
5 Dire Wolves (40)
20 Skeleton Warriors, Champ, Musician, Screaming Banner (155)

This comes out to 500 on the nose.

My problem was where to take the next 500 to get this to 1000.

I thought about adding a Wight King with an enchanted shield and a large contingent of Grave Guard with full command and a Banner of Barrows.

My other thought was to add the Grave Guard but instead of a Wight King add a Corpse Cart with an Unholy Lodestone.

Thoughts?

**jonolikespie**

Sadly VCs are an army that really struggles at lower points cames as out generalls don't really get to be used to their full potential untill about 2400 but at 500-1000 you are looking at:

25% core and not a point more, our core fills a role but it is crap, take the minimum and that is enough.

At low points a single vampire is all you want, make them a lvl 2 if you can, give them red fury and the always strikes first sword then the best armour you can (again if you can).

The rest of your points needs to go into a unit that can hit hard, ghouls are ok to run your general in if you have to but you really want them with grave guard or black knights. Skeletons and zombies will not win combat, even with a vampire in them so your vampire will end up dying to crumble.

**xspire**

How many points would you suggest to spend on graveguard then? 200? 300? I would probably be taking just one unit to put the vampire in, and then some skeletons as well for core

**jonolikespie**

At say 800 points I'd say your list should break down like this:

200 in vampire

200 in skeletons

300-400 in grave guard, depending on if you want a couple of spirit hosts or something.

At such a low points level you are forced to max out your heroes and take minimum core. From there you have very few points to work with but you MUST make a good sized unit to escort your general.

**Ironburn**

What is a good unit for a Vampire general? Grave guard? Black knights?

What about a Necromancer general? Zombies? Crypt ghouls?

**Korpacz**

Ghouls are a good starting point. They're solid and used frequently in most lists. Skeletons aren't a bad choice but zombies usually fill the same role for fewer points so you don't see them as often. For small games go with a vampire because he adds a much needed punch to your army. A couple varghiests are cheap and add some tactical options to your army.

**BaconUprising**

Korpacz wrote:
Ghouls are a good starting point. They're solid and used frequently in most lists. Skeletons aren't a bad choice but zombies usually fill the same role for fewer points so you don't see them as often. For small games go with a vampire because he adds a much needed punch to your army. A couple varghiests are cheap and add some tactical options to your army.

Its not very advisable to put both ghouls and Vargheists in such a small army, they both hit hard but can't take much punishment back and are very expensive. Personally in an 800 point force I wouldn't take either. As mentioned earlier VC's are crap in smaller games what with our useless core. I would recommend 20 skeletons, commit to either grave guard or black knights not both. If you did both units would be too small to effectively do anything... Make your general a lv 2 vampire he will add punch to whatever unit he is in. While expensive in smaller games you may wish to invest in some ethereal models such as a couple of spirit hosts/hexwraiths/banshee as not many opponents will be bringing magic weapons in an 800 point match so you could well find them almost invincible what with all the smaller units going around. To summarise I suggest a decent vampire lord, skeletons, grave guard and I would defiantly include a banshee...

**jonolikespie**

Ironburn wrote:
What is a good unit for a Vampire general? Grave guard? Black knights?

What about a Necromancer general? Zombies? Crypt ghouls?

Grave guard, black knights if you wanna get him a mount and ghouls if you're desperate for a vampire.

For the Necromancer only zombies, unless you have enough vampire characters to push the necromancer to the second rank of the black knights. Ghouls are a combat unit, you don't want your necromancer in a combat unit.

**BaconUprising**

jonolikespie wrote:
Ironburn wrote:
What is a good unit for a Vampire general? Grave guard? Black knights?

What about a Necromancer general? Zombies? Crypt ghouls?

Grave guard, black knights if you wanna get him a mount and ghouls if you're desperate for a vampire.

For the Necromancer only zombies, unless you have enough vampire characters to push the necromancer to the second rank of the black knights. Ghouls are a combat unit, you don't want your necromancer in a combat unit.

I still maintain you don't want ghouls they don't dish out that much hurt they are very expensive, they can't be raised beyond starting size and they die pathetically easily.

**jonolikespie**

I don't use them personally but I do think they are a valid choice if you can't get a unit of grave guard in for whatever reason.

**BaconUprising**

I'm still not convinced but it depends on your play style, some people love them

**xspire**

So for 800 points I would take:

A maxed out (200 point) vampire

30 skeletons

5 Wolves

That would leave enough points for either a good chunk of 10 knights, (vampire would have a mount if this was the case) and something ethereal. - I think I could squeeze in 2 Spirit host

My main question is, what are the strengths and limitations of the 10 Knights vs for example 20-30 GG in a small game?

Eventually I would want to bring this upto 1000 points as well, I've looked at adding either a Varghulf or Terrorgheist.

Would that be a well rounded force at 1000 points?

**jonolikespie**

Advantages of BKs VS GG in small games?

Not a lot of things can deal with their save at such a low points level, and even less can deal with knights that can be raised back.

**BaconUprising**

I would go for the terrorgheist definitely, they are very powerful in smaller games. Varghulfs are great for flanking and can never be surrounded. I would say for 1000 points and below don't even consider BK they are to much of a risk and are very hard to resurrect also the models cost £70

**Tarval**

Pick up the start box for 100 ish and then bit order a character from ebay. If you want to learn, then learn the hard way so that you see all of the enemies option. The more you let yourself get pounded into the ground the more you will rise from the dead,,,, get it. .mahahaha

I find the VC codex to have far to many option. I keep wracking my head around so many options that its killing mah.

He could pick up a necro to keep his units alive longer, flanks etc to adjust and learn tactics while he keeps units alive.

Thats about as simple as it gets...

**spyguyyoda**

BaconUprising wrote:
I would go for the terrorgheist definitely, they are very powerful in smaller games. Varghulfs are great for flanking and can never be surrounded. I would say for 1000 points and below don't even consider BK they are to much of a risk and are very hard to resurrect also the models cost £70

We're talking Black knights, not blood knights. Definitely do not take blood knights anyway.

A terrorgheist would be devastating at 1k for sure.

**xspire**

Thanks for all the feedback and advice guys, I think this will be a nice little starter force, with the option to swap out the knights and mounted vampire for GG and vampire on foot.

**BaconUprising**

I would still really advise at least one ethereal model as not many 1000 points and under armies will have the means to deal with them

**xspire**

With the Black Knight option I will have points left over for Spirit Host =]

**BaconUprising**

Good plan this is starting to sound very strong then

**xspire**

One last question before I start constructing my skeletons - Hand weapon and shield or spears?

**Inquisitor Saroxas**

If you're going with skellies, i would say shields and hand weapons. They arent tough and they work better as a tarpitting unit so with the shields they get a parry save

**jonolikespie**

Inquisitor Saroxas wrote:
If you're going with skellies, i would say shields and hand weapons. They arent tough and they work better as a tarpitting unit so with the shields they get a parry save

Yep, I've seen spears argued but unless you have a mortis engine or two hand weapons are always the consensus.

**xspire**

This is my final 800 point list that I've started to build and play with:

Vampire (Hero)
Lvl 2
Barded Nightmare
Aura of Dark Majesty and Beguile ( Decided not to take quickblood at a small points level as I6 is strong)
Heavy armour (Probably not the best option, I'm not sure whether to give him a good weapon but at the moment I had 39 points left to spend on the hero so gave him lvl 2 wizard and heavy armour, I don't think in will matter too much whilst i'm learning - suggestions welcome)

200

Core:

30 Skeleton Warriors with hand weapons and shield
Standard Bearer

5 Dire Wolves

200

Special:

9 Black Knights w/ FC
Barding and Lances

3 Spirit Host

399

Total: 799

Any extra suggestions other than those above would be greatly appreciated.

Originally I wanted to increase my list to 1000 points but i've been told that nobody plays at this level, the next step up points wise where I play would be 1600 points, so I was wondering what else I could pick up to increase my points by another 800? My own idea is to just fill the core to minimum 400 with more skeletons and wolves, take another hero of some sort, and then I would have 400 left to spend on some other goodness.

**jonolikespie**

Those three spirit hosts should be 3 individual, not a single unit which is what that list reads as.
Otherwise looking good.

**xspire**

Yeh I was planning to use them as a unit, I will split them up if that is the better option, what should I use them for as single units? I was going to use them to go after things without magic attacks e.g some war machines and cannons, or small units of archers etc.

**jonolikespie**

I don't know of any reason to put them all in the same unit unless you want to run a LOT of them. If you need 6 of them you can only have 3 units so units of 2 is the way to go.

If you want a tarpit zombies or skeletons work better, if you want something that prevents the enemy attacking at all thats where you want your ethereals. They are a little slow to get at warmachines but when someone throws a chimera at you you can throw a single spirit host at it and tie it up for the rest of the game.

As a general rule, if a unit can get static combat rez (ranks, banners, etc) or has magic attack then 3 spirit hosts won't be worth much more than 1, if they have no static combat rez or magic weapons then 1 spirit host will survive forever and 3 aren't needed.

In addition 1 spirit host is cheap, if your enemy comes at you with bloodcrushers you can throw a spirit host at him. They will be massacred by the magic weapons but you can set them up in a way that the bloodcrushers will have to over run at a bad angle. Their death buys you 2 turns where the bloodcrushers aren't charging what they want to for only 45 points compared to 135.

**HawaiiMatt**

At 800 points, you could go choppy vampire, or necro's.
Necromaster (level3)
2x Necro (level 1)
3x20 zombies, standard and music
22 Grave Guard with great weapons, full command

You're basically spamming summon and using the grave guard as a beat stick.

**xspire**

Hey Matt that sounds like a cool suggestion, unfortunately I don't have any of those models yet - which of those options would you suggest building on to my existing army to count towards a 1600 point list?