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I think it's because they fill very similar roles, as Elite heavy assault. Their jobs are to be tough and to mash things in HtH, and they pay a lot of points to do those two things.

The area where they suffer by comparison to terminators is against S7+ shooting, where their greater toughness doesn't help anymore, and the 2+ save of the terminators counts for more. Especially against AP3 shooting. Krak Missiles are kind of their bane. Thankfully, in 6th edition Missile Launchers are no longer ubiquitous.

I can’t remember who said it but someone did point out that you could use a royal court and put it in a Ghost Ark. This could generally be a pretty good support unit, as you could give all your lords the 3++ and Warscythes, the Crypteks as tricky wizard dudes, give a lord a res orb, and the fact that the Ghost Ark could repair Warriors leads to a nice assault vehicle that can also support your troops. Not too bad IMO.

Plus you could use a squad of Destroyers to support this unit by killing off the standard MEQ, not Terminators, but still AP3, s5 will be a pretty nifty lil support as well. Leave a few squads of Warriors on the objectives, or you could really be a chessy mother and do the Necron flyer spam coming in on turn 2 etc

Do lychguard not have a 2+ save? Therefore I fail to see how they would be battle cannon bait. I.think a unit in a scythe dropped in the enemy backfield supported by wraiths could cause all manner of grief.

 iGuy91 wrote:
They run very well when paired with wraiths, run a blob of lychguard, with Obyron and an Orb Lord, deep strike them up the field with wraiths barreling down on them.

Laugh as your opponent struggles with target priority.

This is the better idea as the OP is 'definitely' going to receive Lychguard. Or you could convert them to be lords. Your choice.

Teleporting them up with Obyron is a pretty sexy idea. He's amazing on his own, too, so depending on the situation you might then split them up and have them assault separate targets. You could also combo this with Nemesor in a transport of some kind zooming forward early, then Obyron teleporting forward (on turn 2) to be within 6" so there's no scatter.

rohansoldier wrote:
Do lychguard not have a 2+ save?

Why are you discussing their merits if you haven't even looked at their statline? No, they have a 3+ save, but are S5 T5. They also have Res Protocols (which can be boosted to 4+ with an attached Lord with Res Orb), and can take shields for a 4++.

 rednecroncryptek wrote:
I can’t remember who said it but someone did point out that you could use a royal court and put it in a Ghost Ark. This could generally be a pretty good support unit, as you could give all your lords the 3++ and Warscythes, the Crypteks as tricky wizard dudes, give a lord a res orb, and the fact that the Ghost Ark could repair Warriors leads to a nice assault vehicle that can also support your troops. Not too bad IMO.

You want to be careful not to get too spendy. That can be a crapton of points going to waste if the transport gets popped early. Still, a few Lords with 2+ armor (maybe one with 3++ phase shifter and/or the much cheaper Mindshackle for challenge duty), a few crypteks to add bodies, AP3 shooting, and a Chrono re-roll, and it's potentially scary. Make sure you have as many or more Lords than Crypteks so the majority Toughness is 5.

Praetorians are better because they are Fearless and Jump Infantry. Stick them with a D Lord to soak up some wounds.

I like A2 S7 AP1 a lot better than the Preatorians' attacks.

I apologize for going off topic here, but I can't help comparing S&B lychguard to deathwing knights; whom are only slightly more expensive yet significantly better in almost every aspect. I know DWK are not a codex Necrons unit, I guess I'm just voicing my frustration with GWs inability to balance comparable units between codecies that weren't that far apart.

 rubicant99 wrote:
I apologize for going off topic here, but I can't help comparing S&B lychguard to deathwing knights; whom are only slightly more expensive yet significantly better in almost every aspect. I know DWK are not a codex Necrons unit, I guess I'm just voicing my frustration with GWs inability to balance comparable units between codecies that weren't that far apart.

This is because Deathwing Knights aren't S5 T5 metal dudes who can get back up, and Lychguard aren't Space Marines Terminators that get a 2+ save. Plus the army styles are different - Necrons are a medium/short ranged army, while DA are a faster army (I think). I'm actually thinking that if anything, if a Cron player isn't liking an enemy squad, he can stop them for a while with the S&B Lychguard or even Warscythe Lychguard. This block unit even stands for the Obyron teleporting them behind enemy lines. This will give the enemy target priority on these Lychguard (meaning you'll want to give them S&B) and the rest of the army may go unharmed/ only harmed a little. Plus the models are pretty cool.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Why people compare them to terminators is beyond me? Similar cost perhaps, different role. They aren't as smashmouth as a 10 man TH/SS squad, they however used with finesse are plenty damaging. They absolutely decimate MEQ, and anything str 3 can barely scratch them.

I guess because everyone was hoping to have something equivalent to Terminators in the new codex, and when people saw several parts that seemed to line up (price, power weapons, inv save shields, etc) that was the natural assumption... but the fact that they are most definitely NOT Terminators left a sour impression in a lot of mouths (my biggest disappointment was the inability to mix wargear in the unit. could have solved a lot of issues).

Personally, I've only used them a handful of times. A couple of instances where I paired WS Lychguard up with FC granting HQ (Anrakyr and Zahndrekh with Obyron) equated to a lot of S8 instant death, which was amusing, but over all I found better ways to take out targets I would have thrown Lychguard at (eg. D&D squad), so haven't bothered using them much lately.
In higher point games I might be tempted to try running two units of Lychguard: one 5 man unit with shields (to act as a screen/anvil) and a 7-10 man deathball with Warscythes (to follow the anvil unit. Include Z&O in the WS unit, and this one-two punch combo will obliterate almost anything they meet... but at potentially almost 1000 points to run the two squads + HQ together, you're almost better off just fielding a RCDI instead)

Lychguard suffer the great Necron shortcoming of being totally, absolutely, friggen awesome ........ as long as you have massive points to spend.

However, that said, they are fun to run when you have the points. Further, they are one of the best cc units in the game, second to Terminators.

You just need to take a step back from the net lists and give them the tender love they need....

I don't think it is so much of a Net List issue as it is that they just can't get to where they need to be quick enough. They are going to take a round or two of shooting no matter how you get them to the enemy and I just don't think they can stand up to that - and it doesn't seem worth it for that point cost.

Most of my lists go around 1500-1750 as that seems to be the normal for my area and as much as I'd love to field them I would rather them be turned into Lords and Crypteks.

I must say, I have considered Lychguard to be lacking one thing alone: 2+ armour.

I have also thought of several different ways to get a cheesy Alphastrike-type thing with them, and my favourite is to get a 5-man S&B LG unit, stick a Veiltek+Nemmy in there, drop them in behind your opponant's front line, then chain Tele Oby+an RC wired for Combat (effectively Terminators).

Coupled with the NS dropping a gunline of warriors in RF range in DoW deployments turn 2, and any DDA-eqivalents shooting in turn 1, that should mean there is very little left at the top of turn 3. (of course, this is an optional extra)

 Mannahnin wrote:
I like A2 S7 AP1 a lot better than the Preatorians' attacks.

Yeah, but S6 AP2 is good enough for almost every situation, having a ranged weapon, Fearless and being Jump Infantry as well as Preferred Enemy just makes them so much more versatile for me.

I must say,

Lychguard do it for me every time,... Booo Lychguard boooo!! take wraiths take wraiths! Yeah,.. my FA slots are always filled out with wraiths,scarabs and Destroyers.. Maybe even tomb blades from time to time...

Also saying something isnt realy competitive is quite a statement,.. Sure Lychguard might have some problems getting there quick,.. but play against orks,Nids, SW, DE, DA and they will come to you! problem solved somewhat.. I also noted that most people here play semi-competitive..

For 45 points you have a T5 model with 3+ and 4++ that has a power weapon that has a 1/3 chance to come back when it dies,... i dont see terminators doing that though...Give a lord with a ress orb and it has a 1/2 chance to get back...

What i'm trying to say is, yes they are expensive but sooooo worth it.. I never had a game where i thought,... Damn, the Lychguard totaly failed me,.. People are math hammering way to much,

its not the math that decides, its your/your opponents brilliant or stupid descicions along with the will of the dice gods that decides the outcome... Even all around stat 10 model in the hands of an idiot wont do any good..

 IHateNids wrote:
I must say, I have considered Lychguard to be lacking one thing alone: 2+ armour.

I have also thought of several different ways to get a cheesy Alphastrike-type thing with them, and my favourite is to get a 5-man S&B LG unit, stick a Veiltek+Nemmy in there, drop them in behind your opponant's front line, then chain Tele Oby+an RC wired for Combat (effectively Terminators).

Coupled with the NS dropping a gunline of warriors in RF range in DoW deployments turn 2, and any DDA-eqivalents shooting in turn 1, that should mean there is very little left at the top of turn 3. (of course, this is an optional extra)

This is essentially what I advocate, I run my Lychguard in a unit of 7 with S/B and Obyron, DS turn 1, then run to not be template bait.
Meanwhile, 12 wraiths rocket up field, placed as aggressively forward as I can.

Turn 2, assault with all 3 units, and 3 units of theirs likely die.
Meanwhile, Tesla Immortals and Annihilation Barges Lay Down the Pain, and I have warriors in a NS for Late-Game Objective snagging.
Works like a charm.

At 1750 for example
Obyron 160
Lychguard x7 S/B 315

Wraiths x6/x3 WC 240
Wraiths x6/x3 WC 240

Immortals x10 TC 170
Immortals x10 TC 170

Night Scythe 100
Warriors x6 78

A barge 90
A barge 90
A barge 90

 IHateNids wrote:
I must say, I have considered Lychguard to be lacking one thing alone: 2+ armour.

if they had 2+ armor on top of T5 and Res Protocols, for the same price as terminators, they'd be undeniably broken. It's a funny artifact of 40k's level of granularity in its mechanics, that the 3+ to 2+ change is such a big deal.

isnt your Generic TH/SS Nator 25ppm?

Lychguards are 40 base...

 IHateNids wrote:
I must say, I have considered Lychguard to be lacking one thing alone: 2+ armour.

I totally agree with this. 2+ armor would make taking warscythes a viable option. As it stands now though, Lychguard almost always need to take the shield because there are so many ap 3 power weapons in the game.

 IHateNids wrote:
isnt your Generic TH/SS Nator 25ppm?

Lychguards are 40 base...

Terminators are 40 base. Blood Angels pay an extra 5ppm for TH & SS. Space Wolves pay even more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G. Whitenbeard wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
I must say, I have considered Lychguard to be lacking one thing alone: 2+ armour.

I totally agree with this. 2+ armor would make taking warscythes a viable option. As it stands now though, Lychguard almost always need to take the shield because there are so many ap 3 power weapons in the game.

I don't see people fielding AP3 power weapons much. And against a lot of those, your T5 is also going to be a big help. If you do see them regularly, I think you just need to attach a Lord and/or Overlord (or Destroyer Lord) with 2+ armor to tank those hits. Then the Warsythes go to town at I2 before your opponent's Fists or Hammers or Power Axes get to swing.

Ah, i must be thinking of Chaos Nators then.

Chaos terminators are the cheapest at 31 but that's your basic power weapon combi bolter . I agree that lychguard would be much more viable with 2+ but I also agree that would make them op.

I will admit that when lychguard get into combat they are a force on of the best assault units in the game. They are super tough. I have had SS lychguard tie up thunder hammers for the entire game.

 Dumah12 wrote:
Chaos terminators are the cheapest at 31 but that's your basic power weapon combi bolter .

Yup. You can also take SW terms as cheap as, IIRC, 31 or 33 ppm, but that's just with power weapon and storm bolter. If you want even power fists for either, you're up over 40ppm, and that's still with only a 5+ Invuln save.

rohansoldier wrote:
Do lychguard not have a 2+ save?

Why are you discussing their merits if you haven't even looked at their statline? No, they have a 3+ save, but are S5 T5. They also have Res Protocols (which can be boosted to 4+ with an attached Lord with Res Orb), and can take shields for a 4++.

This was a mistake on my part as I thought they had a 2+ save. I haven't got the codex yet so was reading a pdf version of it and read it wrong.

That solves it for me, if I use lychguard it would be the sword and shield version.

Although saying that, I could do as others have suggested and put in lords/overlord/obyron and use them to tank the ap3 hits for the lychguard (plus hopefully reduce the number of them with MSS) and then go to town with massed scythe attacks.

Hopefully they won't take too many shots as they come in as they will be using either a night scythe/veil/ ghostwalk mantle to get up close.

Immothek, Zhandrekh, Obyron, 2 reroll crypteks and 5 sword&board dudes.

Watch your opponent trying to kill this..., expensive yes, but fluffy as hell and fun to run at Apobattles

They don't have to kill it, only win the combat by a few wounds, wait for you to fail the leadership roll, and then sweep you in assault.

If one was going to roll with a unit like this, make sure to save a chronotek's reroll for that leadership test. Being swept is the biggest weakness our non-fearless units have.

Well, as has been said before wraiths are really better because of 3++ and 2 wounds and jump infantry and.. well everything. That's not to say LG are bad, just not nearly as good. I would only take them in 2000+ points games, for anything less than that go whip coil wraiths. Alternitavely do what I do and just take 4 flyers and a buttload of warriors

 Voidwraith wrote:
They don't have to kill it, only win the combat by a few wounds, wait for you to fail the leadership roll, and then sweep you in assault.

It's very difficult to win a combat against 9 or 10 models that durable by "a few wounds". Although if you can beat it at all, the consequence of a blown Morale test for the Necron player is indeed brutal.

 Voidwraith wrote:
If one was going to roll with a unit like this, make sure to save a chronotek's reroll for that leadership test. Being swept is the biggest weakness our non-fearless units have.

The Chronometron only allows you to re-roll a d6 roll. You can never use a rule like this to re-roll one die out of a 2d6 roll or 3d6 roll unless the rule granting the re-roll explicitly says so. As an example, Fleet allows you to. The Chronometron does not.

^
Agreed. At that point, you would want to use your Chronometron to reroll failed wound saves, to mitigate that combat resolution difference and lessen the blow to your leadership penalty.