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Hi, sorry for the badly worded title but what I am wondering is:

If a unit has a banner or ability that grants a special rule to their attacks (for example the flaming banner/razor standard or the ogre maneaters getting poison from their been there done that rule) does this ability confer itself to impact hits and stomps as well?

So, in the example above, would a ironguts unit say with the flaming banner have flaming impact hits and stomps as well as normal attacks?

Also if I take a character with the sword of anti heroes, does the strength bonus when fighting characters count for impact hits/stomps?

Finally, does a unit champion count as a character for purposes of the sword of anti heroes?

No to thunderstomps.

BRB, FAQ:

Q: Do Stomps or Thunderstomps benefit from any other special
rules, equipment or magic items? Or vice versa? (p76)
A: No to both questions.

rohansoldier wrote:

Finally, does a unit champion count as a character for purposes of the sword of anti heroes?

Yes.

 Tangent wrote:

rohansoldier wrote:

Finally, does a unit champion count as a character for purposes of the sword of anti heroes?

Yes.

No actually, he's a champion who can do some things that characters can, but all characters (usually) come from the hero and lord parts of the army.
In newer books GW has even taken the effort to put "(character)" in their unit types.

In the BRB, an Empire champion upgrade is given as an example of a "character."

A captain is a hero level character, obvious by his two wounds.

Did not know.

Impact Hits benifit from special rules.

So yes, a unit of IGs with the Flaming Banner have Flaming Impact hits.

Scragg the Slaughterer has Killing Blow on his Impact Hits(as does the Gorebeast Chariot)

DoC all have magic stomp/thunderstomp/anything attacks.

Only possible with a specific rule to override the general restriction, which their book happens to give.

So what qualifies as a "character?" It MUST be purchased from the hero or lord section?

Well in newer books they have the prefix in older ones yes unless specifically stated, like say the DE assassin who is a character but doesn't take up any form of slot. There are such characters in newer books too nasty skulkers for example are in core.

So, where in the rules is this stated? Not doubting you, just curious.

Page. 134, where it classes lords as powerful characters and heroes as lesser characters.
Like i said models outside those two groups can still be characters if they have a special rule about it.

Gotcha, I'll take a look.

So a potion of strength that increases the model's strength for the turn, does that affect stomps? Feels like it should, but ruling seems to say no on that in the FAQ.

I guess it wouldn't affect. Because you're still under the influence of that magic item. If someone had a no magic items work ability, that would include the potion.

The only thing different than the potion and a sword of strength or hat of strength or butt holder of strength is that it's one use. But that distinction isn't ever made anywhere in the FAQ.

They do increase the Stomp strength RAW.

Magic potions increase the model's Strength and (Thunder)Stomp uses the model's Strength to determine the hit's strength. The potion does not affect (Thunder)Stomp, it affects the model's Strength value.

Duke, you are incorrect about the comparison with a weapon. Sword of Might specifically states that melee attacks are made at +1S, it does not (!) say that the wielder's Strength is increased by 1.

Sword of Anti-Heroes doesn't say close combat, likewise a bunch of weapons in individual army books. But ultimately it doesn't matter, the Str. is increased via a magic item. A potion is a magic item. The FAQ specifically says

Q: Do Stomps or Thunderstomps benefit from any other special
rules, equipment or magic items? Or vice versa? (p76)
A: No to both questions.

You can't get the potion without spending on magic items. Even if it was a non-magic item it would still be equipment. There's a giant header in the BRB that says magic items that the potion is under. That clearly makes it ineligible.

Again, incorrect.

First of all, the potion is not a piece of equipment. It's an item. Would you consider a dispel scroll equipment? I don't. That's semantics though, let's get to RAW level.

The question is: does a potion's effect affect Stomp? No, it doesn't. You need to be really precise when it comes to such distinctions. What does the potion? It increases the user's strength. It does not (!) say that the model's attack are at +1S. It directly states that the model's Strength is increased by 1.

This is the important part. The description tells you why the FAQ does not (!) refer to magic potions. The potion does not (!) affect Stomp. It increases the model's Strength value.

Stomp attacks refer to the model's strength - that may be different. And thus it gets the bonus. It's a bit tricky. There are two possibilites:

a) Stomp is directly affected by certain effects. It's:

Special Effect -> Stomp

This connection is illegal as by the FAQ as no special effect may affect Stomp. This applies to every effect that affects the model's normal attacks e.g. Killing Blow.

b) Stomp is indirectly affected by certain effects. It's:

Special Effect -> (here: ) Characteristic -> Stomp

This case ignores the FAQ ruling as the special effect does not affect Stomp, it affects a basic characteristic. When it comes to stomping in the melee phase, you check the characteristic and use the current value - that is now higher than before due to the potion.

That is why a Potion of Strength will indeed affect (Thunder)Stomp.

Another example is a spell that increases the model's Strength. Would you also say that Stomp does not improve due to the elevated Strength value?

-----------

On the weapons issue: weapons are specifically mentioned to no increase the model's value but rather give you information at what S the model's attacks are handled.

If a weapon *should* literally say that it increases the model's Strength by n, then Stomp attacks are also increased by n as long as the model wields the weapon.

It's irrelevant. It's a magic item. If a magic item affects the user's initiative and the model has a rule that if his initiative goes up his str goes up, it still came from a magic item.

I already told you there are countless magic items that directly increase str. Including the sword of anti-heroes in the BRB. It's any of the weapons that say, "increases str by X reflected in profile." There's countless such items.

Q: Do Stomp or Thunderstomp hits benefit from any other special rules, equipment or magic items of the model that inflicts the hits?
(p76)
A: No.

That's the latest FAQ.

-Is a Potion of Str. a magic item? Yes
-Can a Stomp/Tstomp benefit from ANY special rules, equip or magic items of the model? No.

That's really clear. +Str. is a benefit that comes from a magic item.

It does not matter how circuitous the benefit is. Or one charge it is. It very clearly states no magic items the model has can benefit stomp. Erase every magic item the model has and its benefits when calculating stomp/tstomp, because they can't affect those abilities.

DoC gifts that are +Str don't even work because they specifically say they act like magic items. Yeah, it sucks, but that's the current FAQ.

But thats kinda contradicting the rule of Stomp now doesnt it? the rule of stomp says that it uses the models Str, so when even a model is infulenced by a magical item or a stat-increase from a special ability it doesnt apply to stomp even tho the effect apply to the MODEL and not the ability stomp itself. ( As stomp doesnt really say the models UNMODIFIED str )

I think the FAQ states that stomp isnt affected by magical items, and that means that it doesnt affect from "DIRECT" applications to stomp such as: Flaming and Poisonous attacks or similar "on hit" effects if you will.

So when the model stats is modified regardless of source its as such "permament" to the character, and as far as i know none of the warriors of chaos demonic gifts are basic stat increases, they are all special effects.

Dracoknight wrote:
But thats kinda contradicting the rule of Stomp now doesnt it? the rule of stomp says that it uses the models Str, so when even a model is infulenced by a magical item or a stat-increase from a special ability it doesnt apply to stomp even tho the effect apply to the MODEL and not the ability stomp itself. ( As stomp doesnt really say the models UNMODIFIED str )

I think the FAQ states that stomp isnt affected by magical items, and that means that it doesnt affect from "DIRECT" applications to stomp such as: Flaming and Poisonous attacks or similar "on hit" effects if you will.

So when the model stats is modified regardless of source its as such "permament" to the character, and as far as i know none of the warriors of chaos demonic gifts are basic stat increases, they are all special effects.

This is correct, Dracoknight.

Duke, I made two pretty detailed posts explaining you the matter in a very precise and clear way. If you refuse RAW, especially the rules of Stomp, you're free to do sot, but you cannot expect your fellow players or even TO having a different "interpretation" than you as especially TOs use RAW and not your version of the issue.

Rules in order of importance:

FAQ
Army Book
BRB
My mom

FAQ has clarified the rules for stomp and thunderstomp. No other RAW supercedes it. If something disagrees, the FAQ wins. It is the very latest ruling. In fact it updated the very very rules you are talking about, because it is the BRB FAQ.

Actual rules in order of importance

RAW-FAQ
RAW-Army Book
RAW-BRB
RAI
RAD (Rules as Desired)

Refusing to accept RAW does not make your interpretation RAW, but RAD.

Your logic seems flawed Sigvatr. The FAQ doesn't ask about magic items that "directly" affect stomp, it just asks about those that *may* affect it. The potion of strength affects everything involving the user's strength characteristic which brings the FAQ into play. Just because the effect is indirect does not mean there is no connection, there can be no bonuses to stomp originating from a magic item since stomps cannot benefit from magic items. That's RAW too, if the strength increase 'benefits' the stomp attack in any way and originates from a magic item, you must ignore it when resolving your stomps.

May wraiths and banshees are very happy to hear the thunder stomps from daemons and abominations are non-magical.

-Matt

DoC has a rule that says specifically their stomps are magical. They are the newest book in the game and they went out of their way to write that.

Abombs I don't think do. It's a special rule that benefits tstomp and there's no army FAQ that counterracts the BRB one. And the BRB one is newer.

Whether or not you like it (and that "sounds" sarcastic), the BRB FAQ clearly created a FAQ solely for Stomp and Thunderstomp. I can't see how people are trying to say, "yeah but that obviously doesn't apply to _____." It applies to everything they applied it to. They didn't put in any exclusions I can see.

If the exclusions people are trying to make in this thread existed, the BRB FAQ would basically have no meaning. "Stomp and Tstomp don't benefit from magic items or special rules--except always."

Look, this is the way this stuff works.

Special Rules can affect a few things, in this case the model or its attacks.

Flaming Attacks rule specifies that the attacks are flaming. Poisoned Attacks specify the attacks are poisoned. Sword of Might specifies that attacks are at +1S.

Those things affect attacks. Stomp is an attack, so the FAQ is clarifying that they do not affect it.

If a special rule affects the model itself (i.e., the model gets +1S on the turn it charges), then the model's S is now 1 more than normal. It's not affecting attacks, so the Stomp part of the FAQ doesn't apply. You go to the Stomp section of the BRB and get that it uses the mode's Strength. Since the model is at S+1, the Stomp is at S+1.

Period.

That's RAW. That's what it means. Stomp isn't affected by rules, items, etc. There's a huge difference between buffing the model and buffing the attack.

The FAQ is not limited to equipment, special rules, magic items that affect the hits. Let's quote it yet again.

Q: Do Stompor Thunderstomp hitsbenefit from anyotherspecial
rules, equipmentor magic itemsof the model that inflicts the hits?
(p76)
A: No

magic items of the model

Nowhere does it say what you wrote, "if the special rule affects the model itself." Of course it affects the model. Every special rule affects the model. From KB to Swiftwstride to Stubborn to Impact Hits. Something about that model is different than a model without that special rule. Including its attacks. They actually go out of their way to point out when this is not the case, like multi-hits or multi-wounds which often are special rules on a weapon.

Stomp itself is a special rule. KB is a special rule. KB has a line, exactly like this FAQ, that says if an attack auto-wounds, KB doesn't apply. What if the BRB had a potion, Potion of Always Wounding? By your logic every attack that model had would be insta-KB because the model itself would be modified to always wound, not a specific attack.