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DukeRustfield wrote:
The FAQ is not limited to equipment, special rules, magic items that affect the hits. Let's quote it yet again.

Q: Do Stompor Thunderstomp hitsbenefit from anyotherspecial
rules, equipmentor magic itemsof the model that inflicts the hits?
(p76)
A: No

magic items of the model

Nowhere does it say what you wrote, "if the special rule affects the model itself." Of course it affects the model. Every special rule affects the model. From KB to Swiftwstride to Stubborn to Impact Hits. Something about that model is different than a model without that special rule. Including its attacks. They actually go out of their way to point out when this is not the case, like multi-hits or multi-wounds which often are special rules on a weapon.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Again, incorrect.

First of all, the potion is not a piece of equipment. It's an item. Would you consider a dispel scroll equipment? I don't. That's semantics though, let's get to RAW level.

The question is: does a potion's effect affect Stomp? No, it doesn't. You need to be really precise when it comes to such distinctions. What does the potion? It increases the user's strength. It does not (!) say that the model's attack are at +1S. It directly states that the model's Strength is increased by 1.

This is the important part. The description tells you why the FAQ does not (!) refer to magic potions. The potion does not (!) affect Stomp. It increases the model's Strength value.

Stomp attacks refer to the model's strength - that may be different. And thus it gets the bonus. It's a bit tricky. There are two possibilites:

a) Stomp is directly affected by certain effects. It's:

Special Effect -> Stomp

This connection is illegal as by the FAQ as no special effect may affect Stomp. This applies to every effect that affects the model's normal attacks e.g. Killing Blow.

b) Stomp is indirectly affected by certain effects. It's:

Special Effect -> (here: ) Characteristic -> Stomp

This case ignores the FAQ ruling as the special effect does not affect Stomp, it affects a basic characteristic. When it comes to stomping in the melee phase, you check the characteristic and use the current value - that is now higher than before due to the potion.

That is why a Potion of Strength will indeed affect (Thunder)Stomp.

Another example is a spell that increases the model's Strength. Would you also say that Stomp does not improve due to the elevated Strength value?

-----------

On the weapons issue: weapons are specifically mentioned to no increase the model's value but rather give you information at what S the model's attacks are handled.

If a weapon *should* literally say that it increases the model's Strength by n, then Stomp attacks are also increased by n as long as the model wields the weapon.

Stomp itself is a special rule. KB is a special rule. KB has a line, exactly like this FAQ, that says if an attack auto-wounds, KB doesn't apply. What if the BRB had a potion, Potion of Always Wounding? By your logic every attack that model had would be insta-KB because the model itself would be modified to always wound, not a specific attack.

Debating imaginary cases is fruitless. If your potion existed, who says GW would not FAQ it? Not to mention that we're talking of directly affecting attacks again instead of, as in this case, indirectly affecting...

Stomp without potion is at Strength Y
Stomp with a potion would be at Strength Z, which is greater than Y

How has stomp not benefited from the magic item potion?

The FAQ is woolly here. It should either specifically say unmodified strength or magic items etc which affect attacks eg flaming banner. The latter makes far more sense to me. Imagine a situation where the models stew-hth had been reduced rather than increased. Do you not think that should apply to tstomp as well?

I realise that this does not always follow, but picture the battlefield, a massive warrior, pumped up on magic steroids, suddenly can only use a bit of his strength to attack? It makes sense that his boots would not have poisoned or flaming attacks, but not that they would be weak...

Niteware wrote:
I realise that this does not always follow, but picture the battlefield, a massive warrior, pumped up on magic steroids, suddenly can only use a bit of his strength to attack? It makes sense that his boots would not have poisoned or flaming attacks, but not that they would be weak...

Logical arguments are not the best arguments. (How can poison auto wound skeletons or stone?) I have to agree with Duke here. Potions are a magic item. Stomp attacks cannot benefit from magic items.

Niteware wrote:
The FAQ is woolly here. It should either specifically say unmodified strength or magic items etc which affect attacks eg flaming banner.

They made an all-encompassing FAQ and people are faulting it for not specifically saying, poison and flaming and Swords of Awesome and Skaven Belt of Bigfoot and any the new upgrade that will be released in 4 months about a new army...

They said other special rules, magic items, equipment the model has. That's A-Z. It's not fuzzy. If they had one example, I'm sure there would be people who said that didn't apply because it only said flaming, not potion of str.

No, people are disagreeing because it says the ATTACK is not affected and that it uses the model's strength. If they meant unmodified strength, they would say unmodified strength, exactly like they do for leadership. so I agree that they have covered a - z of things affecting attacks, but we are talking about 0 - 9 of things address ring the model.

Back to my previous question though, do you think that a model who's strength has been REDUCED should be able to stomp at full strength? This would ne just as ridiculous as what you are suggesting about strength when it has increased.

No, it says Stomp cannot *benefit* from any magic item.

Is the Potion a magic item? Yes, or No. Answer the question.

Yes!

A potion is a magic item. A potion of flaming attacks affects attacks so would not affect stomp. A potion of strength affects a model characteristic not attacks. The FAQ is referring to abilities which affect attacks, such as poison, flaming, KB, HKB. This is totally separate to things which affect the model. As above, if they meant unmodified strength, they would have said unmodified strength.

Nitewarel wrote:A potion is a magic item.

So, now you have answered that: is having a greater strength to the hit (s) a benefit?

Yes or no.

Nitewarel wrote:A potion of flaming attacks affects attacks so would not affect stomp. A potion of strength affects a model characteristic not attacks. The FAQ is referring to abilities which affect attacks,

No, it isnt. It is quite clear.

Q: Do Stomp or Thunderstomp hits benefit from any other special
rules, equipment or magic itemsof the model that inflicts the hits?
(p76)
A: No

"Attacks" is not even used there. You have absolutely no ability to state that this only relates to "attacks" when it is talking about ANY special rules, equipment or MAGIC ITEMS that the model possesses. Any is quite clear.

Nitewarel wrote: such as poison, flaming, KB, HKB. This is totally separate to things which affect the model. As above, if they meant unmodified strength, they would have said unmodified strength.

They did, because they excluded any way you can alter the strength of the model - no special rules, no equipment, and no magic items. So again, why are you letting Stomp benefit from a magic item? Please show your actual rule, or concede.

You can quote it all day, but it doesn't make it the way you want it.

Does Stomp benefit... means this:

Rule says all of a model's attacks are at +1S.

Being an attack, Stomp would be affected by this, except for the FAQ.

Rule says the model has +1S.

This isn't directly affecting the Stomp, but the model instead. Stomp uses the model's Strength, which is now +1.

Look at it this way: if you had to take a Strength test on a S3 model with a great weapon, you would need a 3 or lower to pass. If you took a Strength test on that same model with Potion of Strength, you would only fail on a 6.

That's the difference between affecting a model's attacks (i.e., something that would affect Stomp without the FAQ) and something that affects the model's stats (which Stomp uses as they are).

 PinkSpaceHippy wrote:
You can quote it all day, but it doesn't make it the way you want it.

Does Stomp benefit... means this:

Rule says all of a model's attacks are at +1S.

Being an attack, Stomp would be affected by this, except for the FAQ.

Rule says the model has +1S.

This isn't directly affecting the Stomp, but the model instead. Stomp uses the model's Strength, which is now +1.

Look at it this way: if you had to take a Strength test on a S3 model with a great weapon, you would need a 3 or lower to pass. If you took a Strength test on that same model with Potion of Strength, you would only fail on a 6.

That's the difference between affecting a model's attacks (i.e., something that would affect Stomp without the FAQ) and something that affects the model's stats (which Stomp uses as they are).

I'm starting to believe that you can't accept defeat. No matter how many times you state it, the FAQ takes precedence. Stomp cannot benefit from magic items. The special rule, Equipment or Magic Item does not apply to stomp in a beneficial way. The way it works is followed:

FAQ says Stomp attacks cannot benefit from magic items/equipment/special rules.
Item says all attacks are resolved at +1 strength.

All attacks but stomp are resolved at +1 strength.

It's just plain +1S, not all attacks are resolved at +1S. That's the difference Hippy is trying to point out, I think. Like his example with the strength test. A weapon doesn't help you pass a strength test, but having +1S does.

You're right. Just plain +1 via a magic item. The FAQ, however, said Stomp/Tstomp do not receive any benefits from ANY [emphasis added] equipment, magic items, special rules that the model has.

Attacks is irrelevant and not sure where that is coming from. The only questions are is it a magic item, equipment, special rule(s) possessed by the model that would benefit Stomp/TStomp.

What exactly are you guys looking for the FAQ to say so that Stomp doesn't benefit from a magic item?

I would be looking for it to say "unmodified strength" which is unambiguous, if it actually meant that. Otherwise, I would expect it say pretty much what it does, except for possibly saying e.g. KB - especially since the section of the FAQ is answering questions about how attack modifiers, such as flaming attacks, poison attacks and killing blow affect other things.

Thar argument that unmodified strength is used is illogical, against the wording of the Stomp and Thunderstomp rules and is not explicitly written in the FAQ. This is not unwillingness to admit defeat, it is actually reading what is there. 1+1=2; no idea where you guys are getting 3 from.

On a side note

nosferatu1001 wrote:

So, now you have absolutely no ability to state that this relates to the model

Selectively quoting is not clever

+Str isn't the only thing the FAQ prevents. It prevents any magic item, special rule, equipment. Unmodified str isn't even 1/5th of the conditions it removes considering all the special rules.

In fact +str is the only thing it doesn't remove, because str is the only relevant characteristic. Any other special rule which might directly affect stomp is proscribed, but +str, which affects a characteristic instead, is not proscribed. If it were the FAQ or the rule itself, would say unmodified strength.

The rule was written that you use your strength, whatever it is, to make stomp attacks. People wondered if they could add things like flaming attacks by using a banner and so it was FAQd. They do not mention strength in the FAQ because it is clearly written in the rule.

Anyways, I'm going to email and see if they can clarify.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sent this off to GM this evening, hope people agree that it is a balanced / accurate version of the debate...

Hi,
There has been quite a bit of debate on one of the forums recently as to how to interpret the FAQ entry for Stomp and Thunderstomp. The FAQ states that these attacks are not affected by other special rules, magic items or equipment. The question is whether this is only direct effects (such as KB, poison, flaming) or also indirect (specifically, things which affect the model's str). One side says "a magic item is a magic item, end of", while the opposing view says "a model's str is a model's str, stomp uses that value". I tend towards the latter view, as it seems more logical that a Daemon on steroids stomps harder than a Deamon without (whereas them acquiring flaming or poisonous boots would be illogical). If the former case is correct, would it be possible to add "unmodified strength" to the FAQ so as to save further confusion?

Many thanks,

Nite

Nowhere does it say characteristic. Nowhere does it say directly or indirectly. Nowhere does it say strength or unmodified strength.

You've drilled-down into a vast number of criteria that doesn't exist in the ruling.

DoC have in their new book the ability to do Multi-Wounds (2). They have the ability to get +3 Str. It's got like 18 different abilities, a lot of which would benefit Stomp/Tstomp if a Greater Daemon did it to you. These are gifts to the model itself. But they work like magic items per the rules and thus the FAQ says you won't be multi-wounding on Tstomp.

Niteware wrote:
The FAQ is woolly here. It should either specifically say unmodified strength or magic items etc which affect attacks eg flaming banner. The latter makes far more sense to me. Imagine a situation where the models stew-hth had been reduced rather than increased. Do you not think that should apply to tstomp as well?

It's not unmodifed.
I can weaken your unit, reducing it's strength which reduces it's stomp, but you can't buff stomp.
Stomp is a one-way street as the rules have it. Throw a net over an ogre and he doesn't stomp as hard.

-Matt

Speaking of Ogres. In the context of something else I was looking up the gutsman earlier and his str is 5 (6) as listed in his profile because his polearm gives him +1 Str. That would be an instance where he doesn't get to stomp at the higher value because equipment is dropped.

Niteware wrote:


Hi,
There has been quite a bit of debate on one of the forums recently as to how to interpret the FAQ entry for Stomp and Thunderstomp. The FAQ states that these attacks are not affected by other special rules, magic items or equipment. The question is whether this is only direct effects (such as KB, poison, flaming) or also indirect (specifically, things which affect the model's str). One side says "a magic item is a magic item, end of", while the opposing view says "a model's str is a model's str, stomp uses that value". I tend towards the latter view, as it seems more logical that a Daemon on steroids stomps harder than a Deamon without (whereas them acquiring flaming or poisonous boots would be illogical). If the former case is correct, would it be possible to add "unmodified strength" to the FAQ so as to save further confusion?

Many thanks,

Nite

GW states on their homepage that they do not answer rules questions via e-mail, thus your only chance would be a direct call.

Regarding the entire issue - I don't see much fruit in debating this anymore. Both sides have made their points clear and backed it up with reasonable arguments. Right now, we're facing circle argumentation between dogmatics (for the most part) trying to brute-force their opinion onto the others. In the end, it's up to the TO at the tournament you play at - and in all tournaments I have yet taken part in aka at 5 different places, this issue came up twice and has always been ruled out as I stated in my very first post with the exact same reasoning I already provided (mind you, I was a player, not the TO / referee).

Well, I know some people will now jump out at yell "ZOMFG YOUR TO DOES NOT EVEN READ THE FAQ", but I am pretty much done with circle argumentations / dogmatics here. Right now, I just see this thread going on, people soon starting to offend others, warnings handed out etc...and I think offending others due to a rules question is neither fair nor a good idea.

Pretty happy though that it's been a rather reasonable discusion so far


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:
Speaking of Ogres. In the context of something else I was looking up the gutsman earlier and his str is 5 (6) as listed in his profile because his polearm gives him +1 Str. That would be an instance where he doesn't get to stomp at the higher value because equipment is dropped.

That's pretty clear though as the model does not have S5, it just strikes at S6 due to a weapon.

 Sigvatr wrote:

That's pretty clear though as the model does not have S5, it just strikes at S6 due to a weapon.

Well other examples of this is basically every other weapons such as Halberds, great weapons, flails etc.

Dracoknight wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

That's pretty clear though as the model does not have S5, it just strikes at S6 due to a weapon.

Well other examples of this is basically every other weapons such as Halberds, great weapons, flails etc.

Yeah, I just don't know why Duke made that comment. Weapons have an entire chapter in the BRB and it's made clear that a model does not increase its base strength unless explicitely stated (e.g. Sword of Anti-Heroes).

Because they changed the unit's profile, which means his Str changed, not just his combat attack Str. And they did not FAQ it out that I can see.

I.e.,

-He has a magic item
-It increases his Str (included in main profile--in front and back of the book)
-It should therefore increase his Stomp
----not only that but
-He gets HKB in challenges, so any challenge his Stomp should have HKB, because if +Str applies to Stomp in this case, so should special rules

Yet it's clearly equipment. And a magic item. And it benefits Stomp. It doesn't matter if it modifies his profile (it does). The FAQ negates it.

It is not included in his profile. The rules explicitely state that the +1S only affects his close combat attacks:

When fighting with the Great Gutgouger, Bragg's close combat attacks are made at +1 Strength (included in his profile, above).

No +1 on his S characteristic mentioned anywhere.

If you bring up examples, please read the rules carefully.

Niteware - so instead of answering the questions you stitch two fragments of my post together? Classy, really, really classy

Is +1S a benefit to the monster making the stomp? Yes or No.

Page and para where you got that this only applies to Attacks. Anything to actualy prove your case, rather than your ruleless assertions, would be useful.

 Sigvatr wrote:
It is not included in his profile. The rules explicitely state that the +1S only affects his close combat attacks:

No +1 on his S characteristic mentioned anywhere.

If you bring up examples, please read the rules carefully.

5(6) is clearly in his profile. That's not decoration. But the fact it's in parenthesis I guess is an exclusion enough. Since that's what they do with like stone throwers and such. It is included in his profile, obviously, but it's in parens, which makes you look further as to why it's in parens and then you see it's close combat. None of that is RAW, it's completely RAI. He has 6 in his profile. But it's clear it should be just 5.

DukeRustfield wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
It is not included in his profile. The rules explicitely state that the +1S only affects his close combat attacks:

No +1 on his S characteristic mentioned anywhere.

If you bring up examples, please read the rules carefully.

5(6) is clearly in his profile. That's not decoration. But the fact it's in parenthesis I guess is an exclusion enough. Since that's what they do with like stone throwers and such. It is included in his profile, obviously, but it's in parens, which makes you look further as to why it's in parens and then you see it's close combat. None of that is RAW, it's completely RAI. He has 6 in his profile. But it's clear it should be just 5.

No, it's RAW. The exact reason for why it's in paranthesis is given in the very first paragraphe below the character's image. I quoted it in my previous post. RAW always refers to the entire rules. RAW does not become RAI because you have to read more than 1 sentence....

DukeRustfield wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
It is not included in his profile. The rules explicitely state that the +1S only affects his close combat attacks:

No +1 on his S characteristic mentioned anywhere.

If you bring up examples, please read the rules carefully.

5(6) is clearly in his profile. That's not decoration. But the fact it's in parenthesis I guess is an exclusion enough. Since that's what they do with like stone throwers and such. It is included in his profile, obviously, but it's in parens, which makes you look further as to why it's in parens and then you see it's close combat. None of that is RAW, it's completely RAI. He has 6 in his profile. But it's clear it should be just 5.

You can't compare this to the stone thrower. They're two different things. We're talking about characteristic profiles, not weapon profiles. Let's keep apples and apples.

The (6) is a reminder of the rule written directly below that says the +1S only affects his close combat attacks. This isn't like a Juggernaut's Murderous Charge that says it has +1S on the turn it charges for S6 not S5(6) or a Giant of Khorne that has +1S to make it S7 and not S6(7).

It's exactly like it. Because murderous charge is a special rule that benefits Stomp. And the magic weapon is...a magic weapon which benefits Stomp and a Giant of Khorne has a special rule (Mark of Khorne) which benefits Thunderstomp. Just like the Hero DukeRustfield has a potion of Strength that benefits his Stomp.

The BRB FAQ disallows all of those in the simplest of RAW sentences.