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 mattyrm wrote:
Yeah I felt super bad for the Auzzies until just the last two weeks Ive read three seperate articles about how rich they all are. One was about the mineral boom and truck drivers and labourers earning a fortune and having boats, one was about a British family that emigrated and have twice as much disposable income, and the other was from a student contributor on the BBC who said they are rolling in money out there.

Considering everyone in the UK is on the bones of their arse, I can kinda understand the disparity. I mean, its not fair obviously, but clearly they think you guys can afford to pay a little more for unimportant frivolous things like toy soldiers.

I don't think you paint a terribly accurate picture. Yes, you can go to any country and find wealthy people, you can go to India and find plenty of wealthy people. I don't know a lot about the UK, but I know the US if you work in low wage jobs or are struggling to find employment, you're better off being in Australia, but if you work higher wage jobs, you're better off being in the US. In Australia I was always surprised how much my labourer friends could earn relative to how much I could earn with an aerospace engineering degree..

 BolingbrokeIV wrote:
I don't often see that post to be honest.

At the end of the day GW give you the option to buy locally and if you choose not to do so they charge you a premium because you choose not to support the local set up (which costs a lot more to run in your country because of high overheads brought on by a near double minimum wage). A high minimum wage means a higher cost of living. If you want to have your cake (enforce higher average payments than most countries) and eat it (buy cheap imports) then watch your high street go down the pan.

I think you'll find the average GW worker outside of Australia will be on much lower than the minimum wage in your country.

I don't play in GW stores, why should I pay the tax to keep them running?

If it costs so much to staff over here, why aren't my online orders put together in the UK to keep overheads down? Because shipping from the UK is so cheap.

 -Loki- wrote:
Speaking from an IT perspective, here's a hilarious disparity. It's cheaper to buy a return flight to LA and pay for a passport, fly there, and but Adobe Creative Suite, and fly back, than it is to pay local RRP.

Which we should point out is the subject of a government enquiry. If economics (and international economics) really was as simplistic as some people here are making it out to be ("Minimum wage determines everything yo!"), then I doubt there would be such an enquiry.

Hell, Economics as a science isn't as simple as frakking economists make it out to be. I'm convinced at least half of it is complete bs. There are too many variables to consider. It is severely restricted to a closed environment with only one independent variable.

 Amaya wrote:
I'm convinced at least half of it is complete bs.

As an engineer who had to take economics units in university, I think "half" is being generous One of my lecturers, when explaining something in science that is poorly understood and often erroneously used, described it like "It's like economic modeling, it can't predict anything and can't tell you anything useful that hasn't already happened".

I'm on my third fething econ course. It's just BS piling onto BS at this point.

edit: Microeconomics is useful for evaluating how to manage your business's finances probably. Macro is where it really relies on gross over simplifications.

I did get the impression that the people who made the economics (mostly macro) course I took really weren't good at either maths or science given the gross misuse of maths and the inability to understand when assumptions are no longer valid.

Thoughts like "Australians have a higher minimum wage therefore we can fleece them more!" without considering the assumptions of how much disposable income do people have, how close to market saturation are they, what are the main buyers of the product and how much money do THEY have (the median band in Oz actually doesn't make all that much more than other countries, the low end make more which drives up the average, but are the low end your target audience if they are struggling to pay their rent from month to month?), how significant are worker wages compared to other countries (not "minimum wage", what you actually pay them) and is it significant enough in the grand scheme of things to actually affect prices.

People love to take an overly simplified view of economics and make statements that have so many assumptions attached they're almost impossible to prove.

One thing that can be proven, GW are doing poorly in Oz, GW customers in Oz are pissed off at GW, GW customers in Oz would rather import, go to local discount stores or simply start another game. Surely given that the concept of "they make more and have higher expenses so they will pay more" is flawed.

I'm not even convinced closing GW stores in Oz is a good idea. At the height of GW popularity in Oz, the stores would have been a huge source of revenue because they were packed day after day and the counter was running almost constantly many nights of the week. Granted, it was a different time, but it's hard to say keeping stores open is the problem when I personally think they were previously making good money off stores.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm not even convinced closing GW stores in Oz is a good idea. At the height of GW popularity in Oz, the stores would have been a huge source of revenue because they were packed day after day and the counter was running almost constantly many nights of the week. Granted, it was a different time, but it's hard to say keeping stores open is the problem when I personally think they were previously making good money off stores.

Not as much as you'd think. Only one or two stores every really did well. The one that did the best is the one nearest to me that's still open, but is in the middle of fething nowhere compared to where it used to be and I can't imagine that it's abysmal new location is doing it any favours.

Just a question, how difficult is it to get GW product in AU if you're not ordering from GW? I know GW did some nonsense to prevent 3rd parties from shipping into AU but I dont know the specifics.

darkslife wrote:
It would be like me looking at the queen and thinking every brit has a castle.

Could have sworn this was true

But on topic:
But seriously, as someone that is scoffing at the US Prices, the price disparity for AUS prices is a little crazy, I posted something in a similar thread a few weeks ago, someone pointed out the pricing of an iPod Touch between US and AUS, which a few years ago was pretty bad (like easily over 100 dollar difference) there is still some disparity (it's 20 to 50 dollars more in AUS than US I believe), but it's gotten better. Whereas GW is still charging like twice the amount for their product. Check the prices for a Tactical Squad between GBP, USD, and AUD... it's insane to see the differences, and there is no reason why anyone should say, "the aussies have no right to complain."

I'm not paying 62 dollars for a fething tactical squad...

 Alfndrate wrote:

darkslife wrote:
It would be like me looking at the queen and thinking every brit has a castle.

Could have sworn this was true

But on topic:
But seriously, as someone that is scoffing at the US Prices, the price disparity for AUS prices is a little crazy, I posted something in a similar thread a few weeks ago, someone pointed out the pricing of an iPod Touch between US and AUS, which a few years ago was pretty bad (like easily over 100 dollar difference) there is still some disparity (it's 20 to 50 dollars more in AUS than US I believe), but it's gotten better. Whereas GW is still charging like twice the amount for their product. Check the prices for a Tactical Squad between GBP, USD, and AUD... it's insane to see the differences, and there is no reason why anyone should say, "the aussies have no right to complain."

I'm not paying 62 dollars for a fething tactical squad...

welp give it another year or two and that will be the USD price

 ironicsilence wrote:
Just a question, how difficult is it to get GW product in AU if you're not ordering from GW? I know GW did some nonsense to prevent 3rd parties from shipping into AU but I dont know the specifics.

There are a few independants who sell online and have been around forever (I've been buying miniatures from Milsims since back before the internet, when they had a gigantic paper catalogue that they updated about every three months and mailed out to people). There's a scattering of smaller indies, but they tend to come and go, since most of them are set up by gamers with no actual business sense who don't realise just how hard it is to run a successful shop (so pretty much the same as in the rest of the world, just more spread out ).

With the EU embargo, and ordering from US stores just being a pain, most of my purchasing these days is either through Milsims (20% standard discount and regular-ish mega specials) or eBay (for overseas prices).

1) (Can't believe this hasn't been corrected for 3 pages) GW doesn't manufacture models in china, the only things made in china are things like the clippers and such and only because they are purchased and repackaged. All GW models are made in England with limited runs being done out of the US factory which means GW pays REAL WORLD WAGES to it's manufacturing employees not Asian slave labor prices.

2) Folks are right, the higher minimum wage in Australia does not solely account for why prices are so much higher there. However as half the Australians here have complained I'm betting the higher rent, utilities and other higher expenses in Australia do. Not saying it covers it all but if you're paying $500 a week for a gakky apartment how much do you think GW pays for retail space per square foot? Then add to that the electricity bill that's obviously much higher than yours. Running a store in Australia by the sounds of it costs a helluva lot more than it does in other places. Add to that differences in trade laws, shipping distances, shipping efficencies and a laundry list of other things that affect price and you can't boil the argument down to just "minimum wage" and "currency exchange". You live on an isolated island continent, while differences in prices on electronic goods is likely outright price gouging, pricing on physical goods is far more complicated.

Oh and FYI....I think GW putting an embargo on European resellers was the right move for the company and showed that they had finally started to put on the big boy corporate pants. Everytime you bought product from some dude with a hole in the wall and a webstore you were taking money right out of the pockets of your local GW's and more importantly your FLGS who would never be able to compete with them. GW was not "screwing over it's customer base" it was protecting it's local independents and GW Australia. Something just about ever global company has to do. You can not like it all you want, you can be upset with it all you want but buying from European stores who have far lower shipping and other associated costs was like walking into your FLGS and kicking the owner square in the balls.

3) Why would GW want to react quickly to fluctuating currency markets? Are you saying that if the Australian dollar tanks week after week GW should quickly raise prices to follow suit?

4) You can't tell me that bulk shipping by sea to Australia from the UK is not significantly more expensive than bulk shipping by sea from the UK to North America. You seem to be confusing air freight costs which deal with volumes far lower that what GW would need to ship to supply a continent with the prices of shipping by boat. Congrats, you can ship 2 kits from the UK to Australia by air for cheap.....do the same for several shipping containers worth of product many of which I'm willing to bet can't be shipped by air due to the nature of the product. (correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing sprays and paints are fans of unpressurized cargo bays)

5) Several years ago before GW Canada and GW USA merged to become GW north America (And until Kirby came over and cleaned house former GW Canada propped the whole damn thing up) GW Canada actually significantly dropped prices on many things for a while. Unlike most posters here would assume sales of Warhammer did not miraculously increase, money and customers did not rain from on high, instead GW Canada lost money equal to the price drop, sales stayed static and it simply proved what GW already knew.....prices DON'T really affect the bottom line a significant amount. Warhammer is a niche luxury product....it's not significantly affected by rises of falls in price despite the amount of yelling the internet likes to throw at it pretending it's true. The best proof of this is the fact that GW's bottom line didn't tank over the last several despite a global economic meltdown....and no matter how you cut the numbers GW most certainly didn't tank like it should have if it's sales/revenues were dependent on the state of the economy.

Are some countries paying more than they should be all things equal? Probably, is GW doing anything that pretty much every other global company on the planet does? Not in the least. You ever look at the price difference between automobiles country to country? It's ridiculous as is the pricing disparities of hundreds of other products country to country. Why the hell is a university textbook here $600 when the same book is $100 in Asia? Not saying it's right and certainly not saying that there is a certain degree of over-paying but it's not at the level of fleecing that many people here seem to be making it out to be. GW's markup on it's product is about 35% which is a perfectly normal markup for retail products, unlike that 900% markup anyone using an apple product pays.

It's not personal people, it's just (good) business.

Orktavius wrote:
It's not personal people, it's just (good) business.

Except GW are doing increasingly poorly downunder, so clearly it's not terribly (good) business. Pissed off customers who increasingly explore the competition are not good business.

To address some of your other points. I don't expect GW to react quickly to exchange rate changes by adjusting prices constantly. However, GW have regular price hikes anyway, if they just put their hikes on hold for a year or two, it'd be more in line, instead they choose to keep increasing prices.

As for running a business being more expensive, well it may be, but you don't compensate by pushing up prices to the point of driving away customers. From what I've read, rent on a store in a similar urban location in Oz is comparable to the US. That is, if you open a store in the middle of a city, rent is similarly high, if you open one on the outskirts, it's similarly cheap. If people can and do mail order stuff from the other side of the world cheaper than you can provide it locally, you're doing something wrong and trying to stop them from importing isn't "good business".

Oh, and your point about "kicking FLGS in the balls" by importing, I only feel that would be true if GW were actually supplying them the miniatures at a globally competitive price and any price increase here vs the rest of the world was simply because the FLGS actually had higher overheads. If GW are charging FLGS more to stock the product based on their locations, it's GW kicking them in the balls, not us. Over the years my nearby FLGS have reduced their GW stock to the point where if you want anything other than one of the dozen or so boxes they have in stock, you have to order it in because it is not worth their effort carrying GW stuff. I don't feel bad about that, GW should feel bad about not offering a competitive product.

Your point 5 I think is just speculation and conjecture.

Yes, there are pricing disparities regardless of what industry you talk about (you could buy an Australian made car in the US cheaper than it costs in Australia). However, as international travel, shipping and communication all become more widespread, companies are going to need to adjust. GW is adjusting by pissing off it's customers, driving them to import and driving them to competitor's products. Not what I call good business.

GW's saving grace is the nature of their games, once people own an army they tend to like to maintain and build it further, so in the short term their customers may be less sensitive to their , but I think in the long term they're shooting themselves in the foot by pissing off customers and driving away the support of the FLGS who they rely on for both advertising and distribution.

Orktavius wrote:
1)

Who said they did?

2)

To which the response is: 'So?'

As a customer, a company's running expenses are not my concern. My concern is in getting the product I want at a reasonable price. If a company can't offer me their product locally at a price that I'm happy with, I'll go elsewhere. That's just the way business works.

Everytime you bought product from some dude with a hole in the wall and a webstore you were taking money right out of the pockets of your local GW's and more importantly your FLGS who would never be able to compete with them.

And again: 'So?'

Every time I buy from the LGS up the road, I take money right out of the pockets of the LGS a little further up the road.

Again, that's just business. Somebody is going to get my money. As a customer, it's my choice as to whether that somebody is the somebody 5 minutes up the road, in another state, or in another country.


If GW were actually concerned about protecting Australian businesses, they would have passed on the saving they are making on the current exchange rate, rather than trying to dictate where customers can purchase from. Given customers a reason to want to shop locally.

3)

Do you know how many price rises we had here back in the '90s and '00s that were explained as being the fault of the exchange rate?

And yet,. funnily enough, no price reduction when the dollar goes the other way.

4)

Again, a company's running costs are none of my concern. It's up to them to offer their product at a reasonable rate. It's not my job to justify their costs.

5)

Actually, all that proved was they sales dropped off at the same time as the price dropped. And possibly that Canadians at that time weren't buying a heck of a lot internationally.

And Canada isn't Australia. Internet shopping has only really taken off here in any substantial way in the last few years. Hence GW's move comparatively recently to try to stop it. The issue isn't that Oz's gamers are only buying as much as they ever will... It's that they're buying from elsewhere because it is cheaper. Lowering prices would make shopping overseas less attractive... and so would increase sales here in Oz.

Insaniak just hit the nail on the head. Exalted.

It's like anything - Retail here in Australia has been rough and smart businesses have had sales to get market "buy in". GW hasn't had a sale since the late 90's. As a result, people look for their bargains elsewhere. If a business is seeking loyalty, they have to be seen as providing a service or value to warrant that customer loyalty. GW stores provide precisely nothing in the way of customer service other than acting like drug pushers 90% of the time. I've had perhaps ONE good experience in a GW store and I even went as far as to praise the lad on the store facebook page because of the way he treated me - like a human being. I made myself a promise that i'd go back and buy something (won't be a huge purchase) just to show my appreciation.

FLGS's are undermined by the fact the products they're selling have hardly any profit margin for them at retail - especially if they want to remain competitive. This is GW's doing as they could bring down the wholesale price thereby making it easier for stores to justify the store space to stock goods they can actually on-sell.

We are living in a global market, long gone are the days when your only options were those you could comfortably drive to across town.

Simple fact is, they've priced themselves out of what the current market deems to be a good return on investment. As a result, we either look for alternatives in the form of other games or better value. Since the US has offered us a means to buy at half the price of course we are going to pursue that avenue.

Frankly if you're aware of those savings and still walk into a GW store you have more money than sense, especially given it is a luxury item.

As for a 35% markup, that's rubbish. My distributor sells at 38% off the RRP for starters, so add in his cut to that and you will quickly see they mark up products substantially more. Figures were released a while ago on the costings and it was quite substantial, if I find them again whilst browsing i'll edit this post.

 BolingbrokeIV wrote:
Does nobody else get tired of threads who make out that Australia is being hard done by and make no mention of the fact that the minimum wage in the country is through the roof? If GW wanted to offer similar overseas practices to Australia they could, it would mean sacrificing GW stores in the country though. No "trade laws" are being broken by protecting your own interests.

This is true.

It's a problem, isn't it? Everything is more expensive here because everyone has more to spend.

But, y'know, any kind of cut to wages or to welfare would be a bad thing.

My beef is that they don't allow UK companies to ship here.
that is why we're hard done by.

I've read quite a bit here and I don't know about the trest of you, but I'd rather have my stuff take a little longer to get to me, for a reasonable price, than pay craptastic shipping to get it here on the quick. In the end, I get my products and I keep a little cash in my pocket.

And yes, a high minimum wage can affect pricing domestically and internationally because those businesses now have to pay a higher wage to their employees, driving up the price of the products and services they sell. If you don't think a high minimum wage does this, then you failed even basic economics.

It's quite simple: if you're a business owner, and the state and/or federal governments order you to pay your employees more, you'll have to do *something* to offset the higher costs. Normally this is charging higher amounts for your product and/or services or simply downsizing your workforce and hoping you can make production quotas with the smaller number of employees.

In any case, with the Australian minimum wage being so blasted high compared to US, UK, and others mentioned in this thread I haven't heard once about inflation. What's inflation like in Australia?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

...Ive read three seperate articles about how rich they all are...

Oh yeah man!

Once I've paid off the monthly mortgage repayment with the spare diamonds I find under my couch it's nothing but hookers and hash all weekend... oh wait my mortgage repayments are a significant chunk of my monthly pay. Oh look, once I pay for electricity, water, interest on my credit card and any other expenses I'm lucky to have any disposable incoming that doesn't go towards food.

We are all super rich though...

I didn't say that, what I wrote is right there in black and white. I said it wasn't fair and was playing devils advocate, merely pointing out a reason why GW may persist with their ludicrously unfair prices in Oz.

In any case, with the Australian minimum wage being so blasted high compared to US, UK, and others mentioned in this thread I haven't heard once about inflation. What's inflation like in Australia?

It's like everything else in Australia, it's trying to kill you.

I cannot believe that in this day and age some people are stupid enough to believe that the price of something is connected to the cost of manufacture.

Price is relative to the amount that the business thinks people are willing to pay.

A good case in point is cosmetics, quite often if a cosmetic has really fancy packaging the packaging is the most expensive part of the product and might cost something insane like $3-4 (and that's VERY expensive) , however the companies charge what idio...people are willing to pay.

Gw prices in aus are based on what GW thinks we are willing to pay, unfortunately they overestimated and instead of rectifying the situation chose to impose some weird tarriff on our market. The prices are not based on FeKKin cost of living , manufacture costs or some other tripe. How much do you think it costs to manufacture and distribute a box of moulded plastic?

Gw has bungled and are doing a great job at killing their market share.

I cannot believe that everytime this comes up there is always some bridge dweller who decides it's going to be great to make some non-sensical argument and piss off a sizeable amount of antipodians.
This GW pricing is beyond acceptable. PPs pricing is acceptable. Infinities too. and Fow and all the others. For a company that relies on selling plastic crack, i'd be worried if i was them if 10% of my junkies were going to another dealer.

I see posters going "Australia's wage's are higher, hurr durr, therefore it must be more expensive."

I ask again - why doesn't that logic apply backwards? Why aren't GW models cheaper in Brasil or Poland?

 Alkasyn wrote:
I see posters going "Australia's wage's are higher, hurr durr, therefore it must be more expensive."

I ask again - why doesn't that logic apply backwards? Why aren't GW models cheaper in Brasil or Poland?

Coz poor excuses only work one way We hear excuses about why GW prices go up, then as soon as the situation is reversed... pricing keep going up.

If the GW stores in Australia are SUCH a drain on funds that they have to completely feth the consumer in the face with pricing, why have them? Why not just do mail orders and FLGS stuff? The whole "they promote the hobby" thing is crap, the only people I see in GW stores anymore are the odd 13 year old kids painting Grey Knights. The service in GW stores has gotten so bad they've become a running joke to every player I know. They pick up more customers where I live because a punter will go into the store with the model planes and stuff, see the Warhammer and go from there.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
I see posters going "Australia's wage's are higher, hurr durr, therefore it must be more expensive."

I ask again - why doesn't that logic apply backwards? Why aren't GW models cheaper in Brasil or Poland?

Coz poor excuses only work one way We hear excuses about why GW prices go up, then as soon as the situation is reversed... pricing keep going up.

Same reason gasoline goes up but never comes down.

If the market will tolerate the higher price, then there is no reason for the company to ever drop the price. So if the markets in Poland and Brazil are tolerating the higher prices (relative to minimum wage) then GW has no reason whatsoever to lower them.

Now, the problem comes when the market will no longer tolerate the prices asked. Like what is happening in Australia.

Personally, I believe GW will get what's coming to them from that continent, and will eventually fall apart.

This does not, however, staunch my love for the game any! Just utterly destroys any faith or loyalty I had in the company at all.

 BolingbrokeIV wrote:

 Morachi wrote:
By that logic, we'd be doing the local GW staffers a favour then to have them seek employment with a business that doesn't haul them over the coals like slaves. Perhaps if GW changed their business model from "bleed customers dry" and thought that perhaps by charging reasonable rates that more buy in would occur... then they could afford to pay people a decent wage.

No one I know actually frequents GW stores here in Australia, as they all support the discounted FLGS or buy in bulk from overseas. Those FLGS are rapidly dropping GW as the pricing disparity continues to affect new uptake of products.

In short, they've priced themselves out of what Australians can afford as luxury items - even with our "fantastic" minimum wage, which I might add can't pay a $500 a week rent here in Sydney.

The wage in GW stores in the UK and the US in line with most retail work. You'd be hard pressed to find a manager of any high street store in the Uk who earns what the Aus minimum wage converts at currently. the same goes for the people working in the distribution centres and those delivering.

As for your last comment, like I already said, a higher minimum wage equals a higher cost of living.

Holy crap, I just looked at the average minimum wage, $15.96 an hour, I work for an aerospace company in the engineering labs and wayyyyyy under what someone in McDonalds in Australia would be earning. wow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bullockist wrote:
I cannot believe that in this day and age some people are stupid enough to believe that the price of something is connected to the cost of manufacture.

Price is relative to the amount that the business thinks people are willing to pay.

A good case in point is cosmetics, quite often if a cosmetic has really fancy packaging the packaging is the most expensive part of the product and might cost something insane like $3-4 (and that's VERY expensive) , however the companies charge what idio...people are willing to pay.

Gw prices in aus are based on what GW thinks we are willing to pay, unfortunately they overestimated and instead of rectifying the situation chose to impose some weird tarriff on our market. The prices are not based on FeKKin cost of living , manufacture costs or some other tripe. How much do you think it costs to manufacture and distribute a box of moulded plastic?

Gw has bungled and are doing a great job at killing their market share.

I cannot believe that everytime this comes up there is always some bridge dweller who decides it's going to be great to make some non-sensical argument and piss off a sizeable amount of antipodians.
This GW pricing is beyond acceptable. PPs pricing is acceptable. Infinities too. and Fow and all the others. For a company that relies on selling plastic crack, i'd be worried if i was them if 10% of my junkies were going to another dealer.

This I agree with, GW are unacceptable right around the world for what you get. The new edge highlight paints are the worrying trend, £2.55 a pot, so I'm guessing if they're popular enough then that'll be the base prices for ALL paints.

I can totally understand they're a business, but jesus, they're expensive as hell!

I feel I've got to make a point here. For those of you who think minimum wage is the root cause of pricing disparity, you really need to take off your blinders. Let's look at Japan--there is no more illustrative example in the world. In Japan, those who pay full GW retail pay more than anyone else. Guess what...minimum wage in Tokyo (highest m. wage in the country) is $8.37 USD. Minimum wage is a silly argument.

And Brazil, where a Tactical Squad is AUD$51 (to Oz’s AUD$60), their minimum wage is 1/4th that of the US. The US price for a Tac squad is AUD$35.

Minimum wage is not the contributing factor people make it out to be.

Here's hoping the point never needs to be made again.

 ManSandwich wrote:
If the GW stores in Australia are SUCH a drain on funds that they have to completely feth the consumer in the face with pricing, why have them? Why not just do mail orders and FLGS stuff?

Because if they rely solely on FLGS's for advertisement, then they are directly competing with the rest of the industry they are trying to convince their customers doesn't exist.

When someone walks into a FLGS and sees Warmachine, Infinity, Malifaux, Dystopian Wars, Flames of War, Kings of War, Warpath, Firestorm Armada, Dropzone Commander, all of the even smaller but still quality stuff like Tommorrows War (which uses any miniatures you want) and the plethora of historicals available, suddenly their product doesn't seem as cool and unique and people might just go look at a game that offers tham a whole army for what you get two or three squad boxes for in 40k or Fantasy.