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Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

When you attempt to dismiss it as not a problem, to justify and excuse and defend the abuse that has long been heaped upon women in general and the feminist movement in specific, yes, I'm willing to ignore the insults you received.

The fact that there has been scientific proof showing that women are more likely to be abused than men is proof enough of misogyny inherent in society. You have no clue what the hell you're talking about.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2013/03/20 01:24:51


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw






 TedNugent wrote:
 Amaya wrote:
Maybe if you're still in high school or have shitbags for friends.

I don't know any adults who do that without making it evident that is a joke...it sounds like you have some personel issues to be resolved.


Right back at the two of you.

It's your problem you're being verbally abused. Grow up and find better friends.

So.....thread's done?


This is legendary insane troll logic.










So a woman posting a video in a public forum should get better friends after being publicly attacked by anonymous jerks?

Mate are you off your rocker?

Read my story at:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/515293.page#5420356



 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






 Melissia wrote:
When you attempt to dismiss it as not a problem, to justify and excuse and defend the abuse that has long been heaped upon women in general and the feminist movement in specific, yes, I'm willing to ignore the insults you received.


Sounds fair.

So, time for a history lesson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_by_sawing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanged,_drawn_and_quartered

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castration

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_castration

Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 TedNugent wrote:
So, time for a history lesson.
If any of the links you gave had an actual point that's relevant to the topic at hand, I might care about your supposed "history" lesson.

But since they don't, that's not happening.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/20 01:14:30


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Kamloops, BC

 Melissia wrote:
 TedNugent wrote:
So, time for a history lesson.
If any of the links you gave had an actual point that's relevant to the topic at hand, I might care about your supposed "history" lesson.

But since they don't, that's not happening.


Yeah, Mel's point was that women get abused more frequently than men not that men don't get abused.
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






This thread is about how special rules apply to women that don't apply to anyone else.

Verbally abused and you're a man, doesn't matter.
Physically assaulted and you're a man, doesn't matter.
Raped as a man/adolescent boy, doesn't matter.
Genitals cut off or otherwise mutilated and you're a man, doesn't matter.
Executed for having a sexual attraction to another man, doesn't matter.

The only thing that matters is that a woman is playing videogames in which the fictional characters are passive actors. Call the police! Someone draft a UN resolution!

Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







I've been kinda split on whether I'm wanting to contribute to the discussion or not... I dunno, is that a bad thing? Is asking if it's a bad thing, a bad thing? Yeah, that's a crazy, circular sidetrack there.

Anyways, I read this blog here and a couple of comments actually got me thinking a bit. Particularly

"Lastly, as oldfeminist so rightly pointed out, we need to engage the men in tech communities to stand next to us and call it out. The tragedy is that the moderate voices never usually bother speaking out, possibly because they just don’t realise how bad it is."

This was combined with a discussion recently on the (bbc) radio (2) about an incident with the boxer Curtis Woodhouse and a troll.

Well, sort of a troll...

The point that the radio discussion seemed to be coming to, well, as far as a point is ever made on the BBC (they don't like saying anything definitive) was - in my own understanding - that there is:

1) Trolling :- Essentially a combination of (warning, swearing) John Gabriel's G.I.F.T and heckling of public figures. To be perfectly honest, in my opinion, this is expected from the internet in great numbers, due to the G.I.F.T... This is what most third parties think when someone is being 'trolled.'

2) Harassment :- This is entirely a different kettle of fish, this is the finding out peoples personal email addresses, real names instead of handles 'thing.' - The really, quite frankly, bad, personal and directed stuff. I think most people would say that this isn't on.

In other words, just like real life. The difference between shouting out to a comedian "you're rubbish" as he passes by and following them home several days a week and scaring their children.

Now, what happened on this radio programme was, people were getting on at Woodhouse a bit for "over-reacting" and the narrative up until that point had been entirely about 'trolling' and point 1. That is, until Woodhouse pointed out that it had been a systemic thing which had been going on for several months and simply wasn't just the guy insulting his boxing ability, or lack thereof but very specific and quite nasty things.

So, I do think this is all sort of related to this discussion and more good could be done with err, the terminology? That could help people like me, understand the problem.

So, it seems, to me, that there is a significant problem out there of women in traditional geekery arenas being disproportionately harassed compared to men. Which is a really bad thing.

However, this is often misstated as being trolled which is, quite possibly not that disproportionally different compared to other subjects where there's a lot of discussion on.

Then, conflating the two in discussions can often lead to well meaning people who want to help out not taking the situation as seriously as it could and even actively making things worse by joining the trolling side out of misguidedness.

I genuinely am not attempting to excuse anything with this... semi-coherant ramble but am instead trying to identify things to actually help out.

And, if I haven't stuck my neck out enough now and brought all hell down on me I might get myself into more trouble by talking about a noted time when I ended up realising I was being really quite chauvinistic/sexist and quite frankly a jerk...
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 TedNugent wrote:
This thread is about how special rules apply to women that don't apply to anyone else.

Let's draw a map.

You are here ------------------------------------>



































<---------- The point is here.


That is not what this thread is about. That is nothing more than a strawman used to distract from the issues at hand.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/03/20 01:23:55


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






 Cheesecat wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
 TedNugent wrote:
So, time for a history lesson.
If any of the links you gave had an actual point that's relevant to the topic at hand, I might care about your supposed "history" lesson.

But since they don't, that's not happening.


Yeah, Mel's point was that women get abused more frequently than men not that men don't get abused.


http://www.who.int/hiv/mediacentre/infopack_en_2.pdf

30% of all men globally have had their genitals surgically modified without their consent as an infant

I'd say that qualifies as abuse on grand scale. Omigod epic misanthropic conspiracy.

Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 TedNugent wrote:
The only thing that matters is that a woman is playing videogames in which the fictional characters are passive actors. Call the police! Someone draft a UN resolution!


Or, perhaps instead of creating a strawman and then whaling on it, we could start a discussion thread in the video games forum section of a wargaming website and discuss the merits of her argument as they are. Which is what we were doing.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






We haven't been talking about the video for several pages now, which as I recall was something to the effect that some videogames have a common trope in that women are portrayed as passive actors.

Then I had to be lectured for five pages about how women are unjustly subjugated and abused in society. You wanna get back to videogame tropes be my guest.

Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 Compel wrote:
In other words, just like real life. The difference between shouting out to a comedian "you're rubbish" as he passes by and following them home several days a week and scaring their children.
That's... actually a rather clever way to explain it. Thank you. Do you mind if I quote you in the future?

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







That, you definitely can!
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw






It is time to activate the Triangle of Friendship.

Read my story at:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/515293.page#5420356



 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 TedNugent wrote:
Then I had to be lectured for five pages about how women are unjustly subjugated and abused in society.
Women have been the single most universally and consistently oppressed group in the world throughout human history.

If you don't want to listen to a lecture about "how women are unjustly subjugated and abused in society", why the hell would you go in to a thread discussing a feminist topic?

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Melissia wrote:
Women have been the single most universally and consistently oppressed group in the world throughout human history.


At least, until ginger kids.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






 Melissia wrote:
 TedNugent wrote:
Then I had to be lectured for five pages about how women are unjustly subjugated and abused in society.
Women have been the single most universally and consistently oppressed group in the world throughout human history.

If you don't want to listen to a lecture about "how women are unjustly subjugated and abused in society", why the hell would you go in to a thread discussing a feminist topic?


Because I want to discuss feminism, obviously, which is why I am compulsively talking about this.

Here you are directly leading into the topics I raised, e.g. violence against men historically, discounted because it was off-topic. May I now talk about how men were oppressed, degraded, humiliated, subjugated and mutilated throughout history, as a matter of comparison to your claim that "women have been the single most universally and consistently oppressed group in the world throughout human history?"

I think this is the typical problem with discussions on feminism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading and that's why I wanted to introduce the above. I can never be a woman and therefore my grievances can never be valid in a discussion that excludes all consideration of the counterpart gender. Therefore we should not be having a discussion that excludes all consideration of the male gender.

Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
Made in gb
Plastictrees



UK

Little late to the game.

Tednugent wrote:This thread is about how special rules apply to women that don't apply to anyone else.

Verbally abused and you're a man, doesn't matter.
Physically assaulted and you're a man, doesn't matter.
Raped as a man/adolescent boy, doesn't matter.
Genitals cut off or otherwise mutilated and you're a man, doesn't matter.
Executed for having a sexual attraction to another man, doesn't matter.


I think the point is that even though these things happen to both genders, they almost undeniably happen to women much more.

I liked the video, thought the presentation was a bit dry as already mentioned but it seemed to give a good general overview of the trope and its early history. You have to be blind to not see some sort of sexism within games and I don't see why you wouldn't want to support the removal of such crap as well as all the other terrible, overused plots in video games.

Yahtzee, Extra Credit and TotalBuscuit have all spoken out against sexism and these kind of terrible, repetitive writing and I've never seen any abuse on the scale Anita Sarkeesian got. So it's just coincidence that a small, low scale kick starter project got infinite more gak from the gaming community then popular reviewers/game commentators did over the same subject and it wasn't because the former happened to be a women?


WARBOSS TZOO wrote:Grab your club, hit her over the head, and drag her back to your cave. The classics are classic for a reason.
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 TedNugent wrote:
Because I want to discuss feminism
No, you don't.

You specifically ignored the many, MANY times that feminist advocates have proposed things which would benefit men, so that you can claim that feminists ignore men-- because you have no argument otherwise.. You dismiss almost the entirety of human history so that you can try to make a claim that men, as a group, are oppressed as much as women, flying in the face of untold legions of historians who would and have said otherwise. Instead of talking about feminism, you attempt to bring up male genitalia and attempt to bring the discussion entirely about men.

No, sir, you don't want to "discuss feminism".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/20 01:58:36


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

This is a thread about feminist critique of video games. If anyone wants to talk about men's rights ideologies and issues they are welcome to start another thread. Off-topic posting is, however, against the rules of this site.

   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






Lord-Loss wrote:


Tednugent wrote:This thread is about how special rules apply to women that don't apply to anyone else.

Verbally abused and you're a man, doesn't matter.
Physically assaulted and you're a man, doesn't matter.
Raped as a man/adolescent boy, doesn't matter.
Genitals cut off or otherwise mutilated and you're a man, doesn't matter.
Executed for having a sexual attraction to another man, doesn't matter.


I think the point is that even though these things happen to both genders, they almost undeniably happen to women much more.


Hello.

Um, I would take some objection to the idea that those things all undeniably happen to women much more.

I would say it is a fair assumption that women have been raped more than men, both as war booty and as subjects to an asymmetric power relationship. It's also completely obvious that women have been denied social privileges and social prestige in a lot of different faculties, and in that sense it's totally legitimate to say that women have been relegated to a passive role not just in videogames but in the working world, in the voting booth, in the town squares and lecture halls and stadiums and universities, theaters. To that extent, yes, women have been subjected to an extraordinary loss of social prestige and social privilege. They have missed out on gigantic amounts of opportunities and as a result society has been largely impoverished of X numbers of geniuses in the sciences and the arts.

But for instance I would not say that more women have been shot with bullets than have men, or that more women have been put to the sword than have men, or more women have died in submarine or airplane crashes, or that more women have been eaten by wild animals than men. I would not say that women have been subjected to the same level of working hazards as men and so forth and so forth.

Also men tend to take up the overwhelming proportion of the prison population and also are subjected to capital punishment historically at much higher rates than women.
Lord-Loss wrote:

I liked the video, thought the presentation was a bit dry as already mentioned but it seemed to give a good general overview of the trope and its early history. You have to be blind to not see some sort of sexism within games and I don't see why you wouldn't want to support the removal of such crap as well as all the other terrible, overused plots in video games.

Yahtzee, Extra Credit and TotalBuscuit have all spoken out against sexism and these kind of terrible, repetitive writing and I've never seen any abuse on the scale Anita Sarkeesian got. So it's just coincidence that a small, low scale kick starter project got infinite more gak from the gaming community then popular reviewers/game commentators did over the same subject and it wasn't because the former happened to be a women?



I would say yes, it's obvious that Mario and Zelda have terrible writing and I don't even think we could get Shigeru Miyamoto to apologize for it if we tried. The dude is just a crap writer, but I think he focuses the majority of his craft on game design. I think if nothing else the OP has made a strong case that game reviewers should point out how overused and basic this trope is when reviewing games.

Her video was well researched and animated and actually I would say the interesting videogame footage cuts offset the somewhat dry tone of her voice.

And yes, she did receive an irrational backlash from the typical suspects that have a kneejerk reaction to the subject of feminism whenever it is brought up.

Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw






Part of the reason women take up less of the prison population is that due to years of patriarchal domination and what amounts to brain washing, women are perceived as weak an non threatening. As such they can get away more often with harassment of all forms up to and including actual violence.

This is an issue feminists need to address as well. Humans are incredibly fragile beings with multiple vulnerable spots. It may be highly unlikely, but it is possible for that 5' 100 lb female to kill you with a single blow even if it is by accident.



Read my story at:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/515293.page#5420356



 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

It IS an issue that feminists are attempting to address-- one of many, many issues. The idea that "women are special" and "men are expendable" is bad for BOTH genders, just in different ways.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw






Yes it devalues men as individuals, places women on pedestals, and devalues female indepence and capabilities. Part of the problem with the advancement of feminism is that some men like being devalued and some women like being worshiped on a pedestal.


This reaction to Anita reminds me of the backlash against a female modder in the TES community. She made a lot of beautification and sexual mods for male characters and was flamed constantly as being a pervert and homosexual (people assumed she was male). Meanwhile the backlash against the OTT G cup female models that have been created for every TES game since Morrowind has always been minimal.



Read my story at:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/515293.page#5420356



 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Also, being placed on a pedestal just makes you easier to attack.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw






How do you figure that?

Read my story at:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/515293.page#5420356



 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 Amaya wrote:
How do you figure that?
Eventually, you're going to fail to live up to the standards of the pedestal, and you'll be lambasted for the failure all the more harshly for it. Or worse, those that dislike you will simply make something up. And you aren't supposed to defend yourself when they try.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/20 02:47:40


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw






Maybe, but unless it's done publicly there will always be another sap (WK) out there to worship the ground you walk on.

Read my story at:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/515293.page#5420356



 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

 Amaya wrote:
Maybe, but unless it's done publicly there will always be another sap (WK) out there to worship the ground you walk on.
White Knighting itself is hit or miss. Sometimes it's honestly a good thing, driven by people who just don't like to see others picked on. Other times it's actually another form of misogyny in disguise.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/20 02:52:13


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw






I think this image is very accurate.


Read my story at:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/515293.page#5420356



 
   
 
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