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I can't decide which of these to take as I up my mixed mech/rifle list up to 1500. The Vanquisher would be the easy choice if it weren't so prone to missing, the demolisher seems to wreck gak but that small range is a little off putting. Which would you recommend?

My list has a chimera melta hq, 2 chimera melta vets, a 2 squad blob with autocanons to anchor, scout sentinels autocanons a LRBT and a vendetta. Aiming for semi-competitve to casual.

Tertiary choice is for the exterminator, but the high points and gets hot is a little scary.

 Las wrote:
Which would you recommend?

Demolisher. The Vanquisher can wreck AV 14, but that's the only thing it's good at. The Demolisher has short range, but kills pretty much every potential target. And with so much other short-range shooting in your list already you're going to be moving up ASAP anyway, so short range is less of a drawback.

2 squad blob with autocanons to anchor, scout sentinels autocanons

Replace the awful Sentinels with another Vendetta, and upgrade the blob to LCs. Now you have better long-range shooting against vehicles and remove the need for a Vanquisher.

a LRBT

Replace this with a second Demolisher for redundancy.

Tertiary choice is for the exterminator, but the high points and gets hot is a little scary.

You're thinking of the Executioner, and its main gun doesn't get hot.

Right, really? I thought vehicles suffered from gets hot?

 Las wrote:
Right, really? I thought vehicles suffered from gets hot?

They do but the main gun doesn't have that rule, only the sponsons do.

The vanquisher and the demolisher have basically the same target types that they're best against. You can really think of a demolisher as a large blast vanquisher.

This means that you can think of it as being roughly as good against vehicles and monstrous creatures, while being about three times better against terminators... except...

Russes are heavy now, which means that the demolisher can't make very good use of hull and sponson weapons. It's also more expensive, by about the price of a lascannon. Straight away, then, we have to compare a lascannon vanquisher against a demolisher, which means that the math really is the vanquisher being twice as good against vehicles and monstrous creatures and 2/3ds as good against terminators.

And it can actually target stuff at range, which means it's getting more shots off sooner. Already, we've got a tank that's pretty much just straight better than the demolisher.

But then we go back to the heavy rule. Vanquishers can spend only 30 points to take a pair of multimelta sponsons, which is very cheap, especially for the durability of the chassis it's on. The demolisher can take them, but it can only snap fire. When you set it up this way, a vanquisher is four times better against vehicles and monstrous creatures than a single demolisher cannon blast, and it's even better against terminators most of the time to boot.

Of course, you can give a demolisher a hull lascannon and sponson multimeltas for those times when you need them and then just not fire the main gun, but what's the point? You're spending 15 more points, and are lugging around a main gun that can't even shoot. Not that it really matters, as a lascannon and a pair of multimeltas are just about as good as a demolisher cannon anyways.

As such, you can think about the vanquisher as coming with a demolisher cannon worth of killing power with a free vanquisher cannon, and 15 points cheaper. And it can also target fliers (yes, I have taken down fliers with vanquishers before).

So, to conclude, the demolisher is more expensive, has less firepower, and has shorter range. Unless your opponents really, really like clustering together out in the open, the vanquisher is just straight better. Well, unless you're facing off against hordes of ogryn...

Thanks for the response, you've made a very good case for the vanquisher. I think I'll be going with that as it leaves me more room in the list anyway.

EDIT: also, do you find that ogryns put in enough work to be useful? Ive got six oop models I got from a friend that Im not sure how to use.

 Ailaros wrote:

So, to conclude, the demolisher is more expensive, has less firepower, and has shorter range. Unless your opponents really, really like clustering together out in the open, the vanquisher is just straight better. Well, unless you're facing off against hordes of ogryn...

Or Nob Bikers...Or Paladins...Or Plague Marines...Or Plaguebearers...or Deep Strikers...or Swarms

Oh man.

You can't just tell people this. I mean literally zero offense, but your continued lauding of the Vanquisher is really really inaccurate, and inaccurate advice is the worst advice to give in 40k.

40k advice leads to people buying models, man. This is not hot advice. This is biased, non-factual advice.

The demolisher is 10 points more expensive, yeah. It factually has more firepower. With a 30 inch threat range. That means it will be within range of anything in 2-3 turns max. It's not "unless your opponent's cluster", it's if your opponent has anything in coherency, the Demolisher is superior.

2.5" blast radius means that even if your opponent is at maximum coherency in a straight line, on a hit you will hit 3 models. With a 10/2 Large blast. It will kill all three of those guys 15/18 of the time.

Strength 10 vs. the Vanquisher's Strength 8 means it can instant death things the Demolisher cannot. Nob Bikers, Plague Marines, well, pretty much anything T5.

The armament your vouched for on the Vanquisher (MM sponsons, hull LC) is 35 points more than a Demolisher, and will kill 2 guys a turn. That is pretty much consistent. If you keep both tanks vanilla, the Vanquisher will kill ~.5 guys a turn, for 155 points.

The demolisher will kill 2+ usually, and that number skyrockets if the opponent clumps up or deep-strikes.

The demolisher is the superior tank. It has more threat-range, higher strength, better rear armor, and the capacity to kill far more models a turn. (You can fit roughly 17-18 models under the Large Blast Template. That is the Demolisher's max-kills per turn.) The Vanquisher is just a glorified meltagun. Unless you feel like bringing Pask, leave it at home. As Ailaros suggested it, it can kill 4 guys per turn max.

-TheCaptain

Edit:

To the OP: Ogryn aren't horrible, just over-costed.

Also, you lament at the range of the Demolisher. Really, the range isn't that bad. It can threaten anything within 30". If you deploy it at the front of your deployment, it can be hitting stuff in the back of your opponent's deployment in turn 2 (36" away).

Ailaros' rhetoric about how fabulous the Vanquisher is, mostly spawns from him trying to use 4-5 in a guard list at once. If you read his battle reports, you'll see that the Vanquishers are precision weapons. They're like a scalpel, meant to take precise jabs at specialized targets. Which is fine, except IG plays like a hammer. There is no reason to stab something with a scalpel when you can hammer it in the face. You're just flat out more likely to kill it. Leave the finesse weapons to the finesse armies.

I don't use Leman Russes (I use artillery), so I speak purely from a factual, objective, non-biased standpoint in saying that, mathematically, the Demolisher is the best tank you (IG) can put on the Tabletop.

Also, buy two, because the Executioner turret comes in the demolisher box. The executioner is the bomb too.

^This guy knows what he is talking about.

Having used both pretty extensively, I liked the Demolisher better. The Vanquisher is a good tank, but it needs to be used just right. The Demolisher can afford more "error" in the case something doesn't go quite right and you need to use it differently.

Another point with the Demolisher? Area denial. Park one in the general area of an objective, and suddenly you've got a 24" bubble of death for your opponent (minus any LOS blocking terrain intervening). Most opponents aren't going to risk getting hit by a Demolisher Cannon.

I'd go dual Demolishers. That cannon is as much about distraction as it is about, well, demolishing stuff.

I'd roll them into some kind of hard cover and blast away (1 6" move typically puts you in range of something) and the AV11 rear is way more practical than the AV10 rear of the other variants.

I love the concept of tooled up Vanquishers, but arg, that 4+ to hit just seems to fail me every time I test roll them :(

People are afraid of the demolisher, it makes things disappear. Thunderwolf cav, nob bikers, paladins, everything. That's not to say the vanquisher doesn't have use either, its like a sherman firefly, if you know what that is, its role is to kill heavy tanks. If you don't have something that does that, take one, chuck pask in it it will do the job. The demolisher is a good assault weapon, but you had better with play aggressively with it.

TheCaptain wrote:Or Nob Bikers...Or Paladins...Or Plague Marines...Or Plaguebearers...or Deep Strikers...or Swarms

?

So, start with nob bikers. The demolisher has such a short range against such a fast unit, that it's never getting more than one shot off before it gets charged. Biker bases are larger, so it's really not too much to think of the demolisher getting only three hits when it hits. Then it only hits half the time. And then cover. Total it all up, and you get a 2/3ds chance to kill one biker. Even if it's better than the vanquisher, this is still really crappy. Furthermore, it's not worse than the vanquisher. Give the vanquisher cannon and lascannon two turns of shooting, and the multimeltas one (to account for the huge range difference), and you're looking at 6 shots. Once you boil the math down, you get an average of one wound with a 1/4 chance of doing two. This isn't far and away better. And they're both really crappy tools for this job.

Paladins? Same thing as before. We'll give the demolisher two rounds of shooting at 3 models per hit, and then the same for the multimeltas and an extra turn for the long-range guns. The demolisher lands 1 paladin down with a 2/3ds chance of killing two. The vanquisher kills one paladin and puts a wound on another. Once again, the demolisher barely beats the vanquisher.

Against plague marines, we'll use the same scenario as the above. Here, the demolisher kills 2.5 and the vanquisher kills 4.25 - quite a bit more. As for the others, how often are you really having opponents deepstrike something that can't hurt a demolisher directly in front of your stuff? As for swarms, once again, displacement, and it REALLY only matters if they're above T5 thanks to ID. Once again, how often are you actually coming across this?

What you've done here is to come up with a few counterexamples that are either extremely rare, or wherein the demolisher isn't substantially better. Put another way, the vanquisher is better against vehicles, monstrous creatures, terminators, and fliers, while the demolisher is insubstantially better in a few fringe cases.

I can give you some completely objective advice.I am literally as noob as it gets as far as IG. That said, I use two Vindicators in my C:SM list, so I am pretty experienced with demolisher cannons.

24" range is NOT the big issue that people seem to think. By deploying as far up as is intelligent in the situation, and moving 6" before shooting, I rarely don't get to shoot at something on turn 1, and always always shoot by turn 2.
I have AV13/11/10 on my Vindicators and I never fear putting them up into my enemies face and pounding them with the pie plate. Sure, I am smart about checking my armor facings and using cover or my rhinos as mobile cover, but still, having AV14/13/11 means you can rumble that Demolisher right into your opponents face, like "F*ck you buddy. Deal with this.". That is the true way of the Imperium .

I have one shot Land Raiders in most the games I have faced them. I have forced multi-wound tyranid bodyguard units to eat ID wounds. I have killed 3-5 GK termies in a single shot along with handfuls of other unit types. Most important (for me at least) I have affected the deployment and strategy of everyone who has faced my demolisher cannons, literally watching him measure and deploy around my Vindicators, instead of where he wanted to. To me, that is something worth the points.

The Vanquisher, honestly, sounds like a fine piece of armor, and with Pask, it sounds pretty viable. But if you want something to literally scare anything, go Demolisher Cannon every time.

UltraTacSgt wrote:I have one shot Land Raiders in most the games I have faced them.

Then you, sir, are really lucky with demolisher cannons. For the rest of us, though, we're not going to be able to expect these kinds of results.

If you want to talk about space marines, what we're really doing is comparing the vindicator (demolisher) to a super-lascannon predator (vanquisher). I'd rather take the predator every time.

 Ailaros wrote:

UltraTacSgt wrote:I have one shot Land Raiders in most the games I have faced them.

Then you, sir, are really lucky with demolisher cannons. For the rest of us, though, we're not going to be able to expect these kinds of results.

If you want to talk about space marines, what we're really doing is comparing the vindicator (demolisher) to a super-lascannon predator (vanquisher). I'd rather take the predator every time.

I dunno...1/2 to at least glance, 1/3 to pen, and then 1/2 to blow it up if you do that successfully. You've got other anti-tank methods to deal with Land Raiders though.

 Ailaros wrote:

UltraTacSgt wrote:I have one shot Land Raiders in most the games I have faced them.

Then you, sir, are really lucky with demolisher cannons. For the rest of us, though, we're not going to be able to expect these kinds of results.

If you want to talk about space marines, what we're really doing is comparing the vindicator (demolisher) to a super-lascannon predator (vanquisher). I'd rather take the predator every time.

I should have specified that it was two Vindicators shooting at a single land raider, which, with decent dice, really isn't that hard to get a single hit, more likely two, and with two dice for ordinance, it isn't that hard to get a 5 or 6 to pen it. I didn't say that it was a round 1 destroy either, but by turn 2/3 that raider is gone about 85% of the time. I won't say I didn't have good luck, because I have on several occasions, but that str10 ap2 pie plate does a fine job of anti armor in the 24" or less bracket.

If you have lascannons or melta elsewhere in your list but you don't have any high str, low AP pie plates, then I really think the demolisher cannon is something that can really benefit your list. If you do have a good ability to lay pie plates on your enemy, then the Vanquisher really might be your best bet.

I didn't mean to make it SM compared to IG, and I apologize if it came across that way. I meant it to be demolisher cannon field experience. Having the Vindicators myself, would make me more likely to field the super-lascannon predator if I were to ally it in (a topic of another thread) versus getting another demo cannon through IG.

 Ailaros wrote:
Biker bases are larger, so it's really not too much to think of the demolisher getting only three hits when it hits.

Coincidentally this assumption favors the outcome you want to get.

Then it only hits half the time.

Only if you count hits on the exact spot you're aiming for. If you instead allow a small amount of scatter (since almost always in the real world a shot that scatters 2" is as good as a direct hit) the Demolisher's accuracy is significantly better than 50%.

Give the vanquisher cannon and lascannon two turns of shooting

Ok, so we assume that you get first turn? Because if you don't those bikers are within 24" after their first turn.

What you've done here is to come up with a few counterexamples that are either extremely rare, or wherein the demolisher isn't substantially better.

Only because you make the most favorable assumptions possible, while ignoring factors like the hull and sponson weapons on the Vanquisher not always being able to get LOS.

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:Or Nob Bikers...Or Paladins...Or Plague Marines...Or Plaguebearers...or Deep Strikers...or Swarms

?

So, start with nob bikers. The demolisher has such a short range against such a fast unit, that it's never getting more than one shot off before it gets charged. Biker bases are larger, so it's really not too much to think of the demolisher getting only three hits when it hits. Then it only hits half the time. And then cover. Total it all up, and you get a 2/3ds chance to kill one biker. Even if it's better than the vanquisher, this is still really crappy. Furthermore, it's not worse than the vanquisher. Give the vanquisher cannon and lascannon two turns of shooting, and the multimeltas one (to account for the huge range difference), and you're looking at 6 shots. Once you boil the math down, you get an average of one wound with a 1/4 chance of doing two. This isn't far and away better. And they're both really crappy tools for this job.

Paladins? Same thing as before. We'll give the demolisher two rounds of shooting at 3 models per hit, and then the same for the multimeltas and an extra turn for the long-range guns. The demolisher lands 1 paladin down with a 2/3ds chance of killing two. The vanquisher kills one paladin and puts a wound on another. Once again, the demolisher barely beats the vanquisher.

Against plague marines, we'll use the same scenario as the above. Here, the demolisher kills 2.5 and the vanquisher kills 4.25 - quite a bit more. As for the others, how often are you really having opponents deepstrike something that can't hurt a demolisher directly in front of your stuff? As for swarms, once again, displacement, and it REALLY only matters if they're above T5 thanks to ID. Once again, how often are you actually coming across this?

What you've done here is to come up with a few counterexamples that are either extremely rare, or wherein the demolisher isn't substantially better. Put another way, the vanquisher is better against vehicles, monstrous creatures, terminators, and fliers, while the demolisher is insubstantially better in a few fringe cases.

You've created a scenario in which the Vanquisher will inherently have an advantage, rather than objectively comparing them.

I don't need to explain why this is fallacious.

Not to mention, your math on blasts/scatter is wrong/inaccurate. Centered on a paladin, a roll of a hit will hit. A roll of a scatter and 2-3 will hit. A scatter roll up to 6 will still hit the original target. (Subtract 3 inches, scatter the large blast, still nicks the original guy. And probably one of the other guys, unless the opponent lines up his Paladins/Bikers/Plague Marines in a straight line.)

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:Or Nob Bikers...Or Paladins...Or Plague Marines...Or Plaguebearers...or Deep Strikers...or Swarms

?

So, start with nob bikers. The demolisher has such a short range against such a fast unit, that it's never getting more than one shot off before it gets charged. Biker bases are larger, so it's really not too much to think of the demolisher getting only three hits when it hits. Then it only hits half the time. And then cover. Total it all up, and you get a 2/3ds chance to kill one biker. Even if it's better than the vanquisher, this is still really crappy...

Careful there Ailaros, your ignoring your own reasoning, see bold.

Infantry Squads - The prime tasty meatshield any respectable general knows and loves.

Yes they are larger. I've found that means the squad foot-print is larger, so either the squad tends to bunch up more often (impassable terrain, as Dangeous terrain isn't that bad in 6ed) or it has a larger footprint so..

You scatter 2/3 of the time, still hitting those 3 models.

And then cover, applies to all things in creation.. Its a moot point. There are only a few template platforms in the game, I can think of, that can bludgeon 4+/4+/5++ & 5+ FNP.

Pretty damn sweet. And it kills orks good too. And terminators. I also find range less of an issue - I find it very useful as a spotlight marker.

TheCaptain wrote:You've created a scenario in which the Vanquisher will inherently have an advantage, rather than objectively comparing them.

And you've created a scenario which doesn't reflect reality.

I don't need to explain why this is useless.

Peregrine wrote:Coincidentally this assumption favors the outcome you want to get.

Coincidentally, the assumption also favors reality.

Peregrine wrote: the Demolisher's accuracy is significantly better than 50%

Except it isn't.

A demolisher hits exactly where it points on only a .38. Increase the parameters to "hit or scatter 2" or less", and it bumps up only to .52. Scatter any more, and you're scattering off your target.

Looks like about 50% to me, not "significantly better".

Razerous wrote:Careful there Ailaros, your ignoring your own reasoning, see bold.

Okay, let me take that into consideration and rephrase what I said before.

What I meant to say was that " the vanquisher is better against vehicles, monstrous creatures, terminators, and fliers, while the demolisher is insubstantially better in a few fringe cases."

So I take it you're just going to ignore the part where I pointed out your refusal to consider anything that might hinder the Vanquisher (for example, problems with hull/sponson weapon arcs)? Or the fact that you're comparing a 165 point Demolisher to a 200 point LC/MM Vanquisher while also claiming that the Demolisher is more expensive?

 Ailaros wrote:
Coincidentally, the assumption also favors reality.

Except it doesn't. Assuming you never hit more than three models, even with a perfect direct hit, is a completely unrealistic assumption.

A demolisher hits exactly where it points on only a .38. Increase the parameters to "hit or scatter 2" or less", and it bumps up only to .52. Scatter any more, and you're scattering off your target.

Except that's not true. 2" scatter always hits the original point, and 3" scatter (61% chance to hit) is usually almost as good. If you can accept 4" scatter (like you might with a large-footprint unit like terminators/bikes at maximum coherency) and you're up to 72% chance to hit. So yes, significantly better than 50%.

Also, you're making the absolutely ridiculous assumption that a shot that scatters is always a complete miss. Even a shot that scatters and fails to hit as many models as it would have on a direct hit will often still hit at least one. So it's a 50-70% chance to hit (we'll go with your assumption) three models, and a much higher chance to hit at least one model.

 Peregrine wrote:
So I take it you're just going to ignore the part where I pointed out your refusal to consider anything that might hinder the Vanquisher (for example, problems with hull/sponson weapon arcs)? Or the fact that you're comparing a 165 point Demolisher to a 200 point LC/MM Vanquisher while also claiming that the Demolisher is more expensive?

 Ailaros wrote:
Coincidentally, the assumption also favors reality.

Except it doesn't. Assuming you never hit more than three models, even with a perfect direct hit, is a completely unrealistic assumption.

A demolisher hits exactly where it points on only a .38. Increase the parameters to "hit or scatter 2" or less", and it bumps up only to .52. Scatter any more, and you're scattering off your target.

Except that's not true. 2" scatter always hits the original point, and 3" scatter (61% chance to hit) is usually almost as good. If you can accept 4" scatter (like you might with a large-footprint unit like terminators/bikes at maximum coherency) and you're up to 72% chance to hit. So yes, significantly better than 50%.

Also, you're making the absolutely ridiculous assumption that a shot that scatters is always a complete miss. Even a shot that scatters and fails to hit as many models as it would have on a direct hit will often still hit at least one. So it's a 50-70% chance to hit (we'll go with your assumption) three models, and a much higher chance to hit at least one model.

Peregrine is right.

Unless you're shooting at a 3 or less model squad, the Demolisher is quite accurate.

Off topic but how often is it possible to get situations where full proper spacing can be achieved, as I've read on here before it often has its trade offs: such as loss of cover {focus fire} and narrow movement angles or just plain lack of space. I mean i'm sure I might be able to spread my infantry all the way across the board at maximum coherency but it would be very problematic or haphazard to properly move.

Back on topic: I certainly agree with the earlier comments on the vanquisher being a scalpel and the demolisher being a hammer, having used both demolishers and vidicators they are certainly capable of splatting anything often in games I've played more than 3 guys, insta-death is a nice bonus on those hard to crack powerhouse units as well.

Let me start by saying I like the vanquisher and thing it has a respectable place even in competitive lists with proper support.

Now the better tank when just dump them into a list or want something self sufficient; is the Demolisher. This is obvious due to the point cost/effectiveness ratio.

Ailros you are ignoring your own logic. If a ten man unit (why would you use your demolisher on less?) or a five man big base unit spreads out like you say then you will be nearly assured a hit and will get a 3 man hit 70%+ of the time. If they don't spread out then you are more likely to miss but the hits will destroy the whole unit. Spreading out will also slow the unit as you take casualties from the front so that nob biker unit just lost ~5 inches of its movement thanks to a single death. The math should give you 1.7 deaths on average so that unit may take an extra turn to reach and charge you when all is said and done.

There is also the factor that a naked demolisher is 35 pts cheaper than the vanquisher with your load out. That is three melta guns on a vet squad...coincidence or fate?

If you need more long range anti-tank then the vanquisher is the better choice but only if your list swings that way. The demolisher is clearly better in every role other than MC and AV. Now if you could take lascannon sponsons the vanquisher would be the king of armor hunting with no equal.

I am not a fan of the demolisher or the vanquisher...the vanquisher suffers from the great problem of all guard vehicles...BS3. The vanquisher will kill just about anything it hits. But it has to hit first. If you are up against a horde or snything without a major investment in vehicles your vanqs are kinda wasted. Alairos uses like 5 vanqs in is army..with 5 they work. With 1 they just aren't all that accurate.

If you are looking for a tank that can perform Anti Armor work, then get a vendetta. 3 x twin linked las? Yes, please. Anti Air? Yes please. Zoom aroundm y vets or flamer pcs? yes, please. Ultimately it will offer you far more utility.

Oh, and I agree with the above poster about getting the auto cannons out of the blob squad. Replace them with lascannons and then make your LRBT an exterminator instead. That russ variant is the boss when you put sponsons on it.

ender502