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Everyone seems to say they stink. So I have to be a contrarian and ask the question..are they potentially the best AT for the eldar? They're fast and have haywire grenades. The grenades will always hit on a 4+ and will almost always strip a hull point. It is almost like spammimg short ranged brightlances in terms of effect. Do they melt to incoming fire? Yes..but so do just about all eldar. So that is part and parcel of the army. RAther than a large squad I would think 2 squads of 6 would be amongst the best AT the eldar can put on the field.

Thoughts?

ender502

I have only played against them a couple of times, and as far as I remember it was them getting close that got them killed.

AT is nice but they are T3 Arm4+ I think? They'll die very quick unless they are totally out of LOS (which is difficult). That said the 2 survivors did knock 2 hull points of my LR, before being vectored by my daemon prince!

They are great at AT, but the question is are they cost effective, and can something do it equally as well for less.

Like it has been said, once they are on the board and moving to pop something they will probably get shot. They are weak and have crappy armor. But if you can get them to touch something then that will disappear. I'd say it is your decision.

They suck, for multiple reasons:

1) They have to assault. This means your "range" for your anti-tank weapons is very short. You need to be comparing them to half-range melta, not lances.

2) They have poor durability. T3/4+ doesn't last very long when someone wants it dead, and they're going to want your primary anti-tank unit dead. And since you have to assault you have to stand out in the open getting shot before you can attack anything.

3) They cost too much. 21 points per model is just too much, especially when fire dragons exist.

4) They do nothing to non-vehicle units. Anti-tank guns can also hurt MEQs and MCs which ensures they have a purpose even when there aren't any important tanks to kill. On the other hand if your anti-tank unit is limited to grenades they're just going to sit around uselessly against an infantry list.

5) They take up fast attack slots which could otherwise go to Hornets and Nightwings.

The conclusion here is that fire dragons are your answer. Their melta hits on a 3+, strips HPs almost as effectively as haywire, inflicts penetrating hits way better than haywire (and at AP 1), and gets to massacre non-vehicle targets almost as well as vehicles. And, while the models themselves aren't any more durable they can use transports effectively and hide until it's time to kill a tank. And just to add insult to injury you get all of this for 5 points per model less.

And..... there's a downer, albeit a well constructed one.

Whilst I would disagree that they are the best AT that Eldar can field, they can still be ok, and they're definately not as bad as in 5th edition. I'll address some of Peregrine's points and then come on to how to use them, as I've been using them for a while, including in 5th edition just because they were so rare (for good reason).

1) True, and yes you do need to be comparing them to Meltas and not Lances. However, you do say that Fire Dragons are the best method of Anti-Tank, so apparently short ranged appears to be the way. However, they are very fast, remember they are jump infantry, so they either re-roll the charge or move 12" plus run, meaning the short range isn't as much of a problem, they also don't need to shell out on a Transport to get into range.

2) Again, true, but because of your speed you can generally dart in and out of cover to mitigate the amount of shooting coming your way. And because they are widely believed to be overcosted they are often overlooked, especially in a small squad. Additionally, because they're not seen very often it's rare that people are familiar with them.

3) Yeah, they do, but that doesn't mean that they don't have uses. Other units do the job better, it's true, but if someone wants to use Swooping Hawks then there's at least something that they can do with them.

4) Again, true, but there aren't very many units in the Eldar Codex that can both deal with Infantry very well and Vehicles very well. The units in there are generally specialised.

5) Not everyone is playing Forge World. And without Forge World the Eldar Fast Attack section is pretty bad.

As for your conclusion. The Penetrating hits often aren't going to be needed, as you'll have glanced the vehicle to death anyway, and Swooping Hawks hit vehicles on a 3+ at worst too. All the penetrators are likely to do are make the vehicle explode killing some of your models. Swooping Hawks can also use cover effectively to avoid shooting, especially with small squads, and you're not paying anywhere near to what you would pay for 5 Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent.

With the Hawks, don't Deep Strike them. The only benefit that you're getting from this is a large blast Bolter shot, and straight after you've come down you're likely to be right in the open. If you start them on the board you know where they're going to be and can plot an approximate path across the board. If you're deploying first, if you're taking Eldrad (which you should be) you can then use him to redeploy your Hawks if you need to.

However, Peregrine is right, if there is no infantry on the board, prepare for your Hawks to do nothing except attempt a Linebreak or objective contest. Neither of which are likely due to your durability or lack thereof. Linebreaker is at least possible as you can try to jump into a ruin turn 5 and hide, if you can engineer that.

People might want to check the FAQ for the change to Intercept. Swooping Hawks with Intercept treat non-walker vehicles as WS0 now, which is a significant improvement.

Still doesn't help that they're made of paper, and can't do significant damage to anything except vehicles. If you're not using Forgeworld, I'd put Warp Spiders down as the better bet. Especially as they have 3+ armour, are more maneuverable (Assault move), and have Assault 2 S6 guns. They may not be as capable at taking out AV13+, but they'll shred anything softer through weight of fire.

Appreciate the thoughts. I agree the fire dragons are great and somewhat more versatile, but they also have the added transport cost...and waver serpents really stink nowadays. So, in the conversation of fire dragons you have to add in about 125 points of suckitude...Also, a vehicle all by itself in 6th ed is toast. So, fire dragons are great but they really need a wave serpents AND another vehicle to draw fire.

So, as not great as the hawks are, the excellence of fire dragons comes at a very high price.

ender502

I thought it was possibe to throw the grenades 8 inches?

If I am correct, then they shouldn't be to bad. Deep strike them close to a vehicle, place that blast on a camping troop squad, and throw your grenades.

Let's say you have 6 Hawks. 4 should hit, whereof 3 or 4 should strip a hull point, in most cases destroying the vehicle. Chances of getting a penetrating hit aren't too bad either.

But then, if I'm wrong, they really aren't good at getting vehicles down unless they get to combat.

Oh, and scattering can be annoying too. 8 inches isn't really far...

Only a single model has permission to throw grenades, So generally you'll have the exarch throw it since he'll actually hit something... usually.

Swooping Hawks have a lot to compete with, but ultimately I like them and firmly beleive that they can work in the Right List.

If I take them I will always take a kitted exarch. Skyleap is really the only thing Swooping Hawks have going for them. Deep strike them in somewhere safe, Drop the bolter pieplate down on some infantry, then skyleap them out again. With an Autarch for Master Strategist, you should be able to get a large blast per turn.

As the game progresses and the armies start taking casualties, you can land them someplace, and put yourself in a position to threaten a tank, and / or blast something with your weak shooting.

The point is with Skyleap they are broken. Broken not in an over powered way, but in a way that they are a unit that your opponent cannot kill, not even with a quad gun, since interceptor fires at the end of the movement phase and the Hawks will be gone by then. This can be very frustrating for your opponent, especially if they are relying on GEQ behind an Aegis. Hopefullly they will be around to contest an objective on turn 5 or 6 as well if needed.

That said, I wouldn't count on them as crucial to your anti tank strategy, they should just be another small threat in a list full of small threats.

I played a game with them this weekend just passed for the first time. They performed quite well.

Admittedly, I was playing against IG, an army the hawks are almost designed to murder.

Turn 2, they dropped their blast on a 20 man squad of infantry, killing 9, causing a moral check, which they failed and ran off the board.

Turn 3, they dropped their blast on another squad holding a centre objective, killing 3-4.

They then dropping in next to a heavy weapons squad of heavy bolters, shooting 16 S3 AP5 shots wiping the squad out.

They got hosed down by shotguns from a vet squad in the following turn. The Vet squad was called away from the centre of the table, back into his half to take out the threat, which has it's own benefits. Also, they were working in the space near my spiders, which meant 1/2 as much shooting at them, adding to their surviability.

Not sure on the costing of my opponents units, but the hawks definitely made their points back.

I've just got to paint them up now, but they look like great models.

I used them in games against IG and Tau over the weekend, with good success. They are not going to help you build a list to table your enemy, but I don't try to do that with Eldar. They get me line breaker, they munch small back field objective holding squads, and they give a mobility dimension that nothing else can - fresh deep strike every turn. The enemy never knows if they will stay or leap, and needs to plan for them to stay. They are extra win in one of six missions as well.

Chrysis wrote:
People might want to check the FAQ for the change to Intercept. Swooping Hawks with Intercept treat non-walker vehicles as WS0 now, which is a significant improvement.

Per the Errata they never require worse than a 4+ to hit vehicles without a WS.
Per the Ammendments they treat non-walker vehicles as WS0.

I'd paint them black and call them allied Scourges.
5 Scourges with 2 haywire blasters are 20 points more than 5 swooping hawks.
For those 20 points you get:
Night Fight
Power from the Pain
4+/6++ armor
2 Haywire shots at 24"
9 Poison shots at 18" instead of 10 S3 shots at 24".

Honestly, 24" ranged haywire shots are pretty good.

Swooping hawks either aren't going to do much, or die in the attempt (successful or not).
Scourges are what they should have been, a stand off unit that can significantly contribute.

-Matt