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 Breotan wrote:

dh1992 wrote:
Plastic injection will be the most sensible option for any company that wants to sell a lot. The problem being, only the big companies can really afford this.

DreamForge and Wyrd would like to disagree with you. That's why I like it when I see this sort of thing on Kickstarter. Once funded, a good project will usually make back the costs as well as generate at least a small profit. Even if future sales are scarce, at least you're not operating at a loss like normal startups do. Small companies like DreamForge, Studio McVey, Mantic, and even Romeo's Outlaw Miniatures demonstrate that high quality plastic models can be produced and enough sold to make back production costs. Wyrd is a small company producing outstanding plastic kits and they didn't even go the kickstarter route.

I'd like to point out that it's slightly premature to call DFG a massive success when two out of three waves of releases have not come out, a lot of Kickstarter backers' minis are AWOL and the entire release schedule is currently a mystery, all thanks to them having to outsource production to China.

^ Oh please.

Give it a rest, already.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I'm a little confused by this statement... Wyrd's plastics have been out since August, and the plastic models translate very well from art to render to plastic mini.

Not sure what was confusing about it. I hadn't seen any pictures of the finished product, only renders.

And to be honest, those pics you provided don't fill me with joy. The plastics look nowhere near as crisp as Wyrd's metals.

 insaniak wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I'm a little confused by this statement... Wyrd's plastics have been out since August, and the plastic models translate very well from art to render to plastic mini.

Not sure what was confusing about it. I hadn't seen any pictures of the finished product, only renders.

And to be honest, those pics you provided don't fill me with joy. The plastics look nowhere near as crisp as Wyrd's metals.

That's what I thought you said, but it seemed strange that you hadn't seen the plastics 7 months after their release.

I've got a painted Beckoner in my gallery, I don't have a very good camera, but I've been happy with all the plastic models I have with the exception of Hungering Darkness (who has a big line down the middle of the model, and one of the Illuminated in Jakob Lynch's box who has a similar issue. But I got one of the first runs of the box.

I have seen many of the new Malifaux plastics and they are quite nice. On par with GW's latest plastics IMO.

 Alfndrate wrote:
That's what I thought you said, but it seemed strange that you hadn't seen the plastics 7 months after their release.

I have a few of Wyrd's minis that I picked up to paint, but I don't really follow the range that closely because I don't play their games.

 insaniak wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
That's what I thought you said, but it seemed strange that you hadn't seen the plastics 7 months after their release.

I have a few of Wyrd's minis that I picked up to paint, but I don't really follow the range that closely because I don't play their games.

Everything makes sense lol.

 insaniak wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Wyrd has already proved this assertion wrong with their moving Malifaux to plastic.

Have they, though? I've seen a lot of renders for plastic minis, which look an awful lot like renders and aren't particularly useful for judging the quality of the resultant minis. Has anyone actually seen the quality of the finished product?

I have most of their new plastic stuff. Not everything is assembled, though. I'll try to get some pics taken this weekend and put them here for you to judge.

Eilif wrote:
Wyrd is actually a good evidence that metal is a better medium for new companies to start with and that plastic is something to work towards.

More specifically, Wyrd is an example that there is a market for plastic which a new company can jump directly into, provided they have some good business sense about them. Outlaw Miniatures is trying this with their kickstarter. It's ambitious and I wish them much luck but I'm a little worried that weird west is a little too niche for them to last. Haven't seen the game itself yet so I can't speak to the "fun" factor of the game.

I think that someone new, who can work up a solid product line like DreamForge, can bring that to market as plastic and do well. I don't see a big future in metal models. I realize that this is purely anecdotal but the primary reason I don't get full invested in Warmahordes is that I really really hate metal models. Their fake resin and bad sculpting practices on multi-part models (things just don't fit together right) doesn't help any.

I'll add my 2 cents in here,

Given a choice between a brand new company releasing 1 miniature in plastic or 20 miniatures in metal (or resin) I'd much rather see 20 metal/resin miniatures. similarly given the choice between a company releasing a metal/resin miniature or not launching anything at all I'd go for the single metal/resin miniature.

Whilst Plasitc is all well and good, and has some advantages, I'd rather see a company plan to succeed than just release plastics and be so slow at getting new releases out that they fold.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for the company eventually moving into plastics once they have a foot hold, and maybe a better choice of words would be "Should new companies aim to switch to plastics in 5/10 from starting out?"

For every company like Dreamforge, who go the kickstarter route and jump straight to plastic, lets think about hte Kingdom Deaths who do very well selling high quality resins (and ok, they did a kickstarter too - but it was only so successful due to it's already established model line)

Stranger83 wrote:

For every company like Dreamforge, who go the kickstarter route and jump straight to plastic, lets think about hte Kingdom Deaths who do very well selling high quality resins (and ok, they did a kickstarter too - but it was only so successful due to it's already established model line)

Just a minor correction. Dreamforge was a metal/resin company for a number of years before going plastic. Both their troopers and Leviathans were formerly available in metal and resin respectively.

Ah well, there you go then - even they didn't start as plastic. I actually know little about them - Sci-fi isn't my thing, I just used them as they have been mentioned in this thread as starting in plastics.

 Empchild wrote:
So i will weigh in and share costs as some of you have no idea what your talking about. As someone who produces minis and has looked at plastics it's just not viable unless you have money to burn. When i was quoted for plastics they wanted close to $30k per mould. Being a box would have two moulds in it and would retail close to $35 that would mean i would have to sell around 1700 units to break even. That is just not viable for new companies. Now if i did metal i run close to $1000 in costs to hit profit(that counts production and distribution). Resin is around the same price.

It depends what you're selling. If you're selling a kit that people will only ever buy one of (like a character mini, etc.) then you are absolutely correct, however if its a unit of minis and the average purchaser will need 2 or 3 kits to play, suddenly that 1700 units to break even becomes say 650 customers... which is more feasible.

Personally, what I would like to see (and have been trying to wrap my head around and come up with a viable concept for) is a production method that allows for the detail and costs of resin production but the scale and speed of plastic injection molding...

 Breotan wrote:
More specifically, Wyrd is an example that there is a market for plastic which a new company can jump directly into

Again, if by "new" you mean "being the 5th best selling tabletop game in USA for years" (the other 4 are 2x GW and 2x Privateer Press).
And most Malifaux plastics are hardly released, so we can't speak of a huge market just now, with 5th place rewarded by metal sales only!

Mercedes selling cars doesn't mean that everyone should start building a car factory.

It might be instructive to look at the record of companies who actually do jump strait into plastic as thier first product.
For every Mantic who entered riding the back of GW (I don't fault them for this) or VIctrix (who only makes historical line troops and is run by guys with a long history in the biz)and then there are companies like:
-Wargames Factory. Who'se first entries were widely regarded as sub-par and ended up going bust and being bought out by their manufacturer.
-Defiance, who managed to put out one fairly good product before getting sidetracked and has since managed to miss every projected delivery date since...

Most of The companies who make plastic work are those with a history of metal and/or resin and nearly all of them continue to produce metal or resin figs that complement their plastic lines:
Perry
Warlord
GW
McVey
Wyrd

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
More specifically, Wyrd is an example that there is a market for plastic which a new company can jump directly into

Again, if by "new" you mean "being the 5th best selling tabletop game in USA for years" (the other 4 are 2x GW and 2x Privateer Press).
And most Malifaux plastics are hardly released, so we can't speak of a huge market just now, with 5th place rewarded by metal sales only!

Mercedes selling cars doesn't mean that everyone should start building a car factory.

Agreed. That there is "a market for plastic" doesn't mean it's ripe for all mini builders to jump in. It also shouldn't distract potential "jumpers" from the more important fact that Wyrd had a strong history and wide popularity before dipping their toes in the plastic market.

The lesson from Wyrd is to take your time, acquire a track record and build up to plastic, NOT to "Jump directly in..".

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
There is one advantage metal has over plastic. If there is a miscast in metal you just throw it back into the melter. Recycling your raw materials is a benefit in this case.

Actually, with extruded thermal plastics it is common practice to grind up excess/bad parts and then reuse the materials.

deleted accidental repost

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
More specifically, Wyrd is an example that there is a market for plastic which a new company can jump directly into

Again, if by "new" you mean "being the 5th best selling tabletop game in USA for years" (the other 4 are 2x GW and 2x Privateer Press).
And most Malifaux plastics are hardly released, so we can't speak of a huge market just now, with 5th place rewarded by metal sales only!

Mercedes selling cars doesn't mean that everyone should start building a car factory.

First, I never called Wyrd new. I stated that there was a market for plastic figures that a new company could get into. Not "weird west" specifically but sci-fi/fantasy related certainly. Also, being 5th in a niche market doesn't mean you're about to break through the Forbes Fortune 500 anytime soon. In fact, it means that you're most likely the very definition of what a small business is. Your car analogy doesn't even make any sense in this context, except that breaking into markets isn't easy and serious market research needs to be done in order to optimize your chances of success. Still, I stand by my comments that the market exists and a startup can and will succeed unless they're head-up-the-arse oriented like Priestly's kickstarter was.

Now, as to the quality of Wyrd's plastics, here are some pics. Sorry for the bad camera work. :/

 Breotan wrote:
[ Still, I stand by my comments that the market exists and a startup can and will succeed unless they're head-up-the-arse oriented like Priestly's kickstarter was.

So you keep saying, no one doubts you that a market exists for plastic. However you haven't provided any reasoning for why a "startup can and will succeed" when the evidence so far shows that it's existing companies with some experience, a track record, and a customer base who are the most successful in producing plastic wargames miniatures.

I do agree with your assessment of Priestly's Kickstart though.

Don't forget iKore, whose foray into plastics killed the company dead, due to manufacturing errors and internal corruption. Had they stuck with metals they might have survived the experience.

R.

Top guy's coat seems a bit flat, but otherwise those do look quite nice. Do they come a on single sprue each? Also roughly how many individual parts make up each of them?

Another point in plastic's favor (that I don't think has been brought up) - it makes you stand out of the crowd.

There are more new games/makers than ever - and it seems like at any given time there are a half-dozen more metal skirmish games on Kickstarter.

Launching with plastic shows you're dedicated/serious enough to have put some money on the line/gotten investors/lined up production/what have you. And you've got to have a good deal of confidence in your line to do so.

Analogy-wise - it's the difference between opening a restaurant or pushing a food cart.

Riquende wrote:
Top guy's coat seems a bit flat, but otherwise those do look quite nice. Do they come a on single sprue each? Also roughly how many individual parts make up each of them?

I can take a picture tonight since I have some unassembled Guild Riflemen, but the box has 3 sprues in it. 2 sprues have the makings for 2 of the riflemen (spread out amongst the sprues), and the third had the parts for the third rifleman. Each one has 4 individual parts I believe (again I'd have to check).


Edit: THE GOOGLES!



Fyi, I can't see that image as it's work blocked, but it should be a picture of the sprues. And actually upon closer inspection, it does seem that they're each on their own sprue.

Schmapdi wrote:
Another point in plastic's favor (that I don't think has been brought up) - it makes you stand out of the crowd.

There are more new games/makers than ever - and it seems like at any given time there are a half-dozen more metal skirmish games on Kickstarter.

Launching with plastic shows you're dedicated/serious enough to have put some money on the line/gotten investors/lined up production/what have you. And you've got to have a good deal of confidence in your line to do so.

Analogy-wise - it's the difference between opening a restaurant or pushing a food cart.

Plastic or metal - £1 or £1million - confidence or not - success isn't guaranteed.

 Alfndrate wrote:


Fyi, I can't see that image as it's work blocked, but it should be a picture of the sprues. And actually upon closer inspection, it does seem that they're each on their own sprue.

They do look alright. I'm still not sure going plastic is suitable for every company (especially one starting up). The skill set needed to design a functional plastic sprue differs from that needed to cast up a few metal pieces. I'm glad to see the industry is moving in the right direction though.

I've taken an interest in the push/pull to plastic lately and this fine thread made me finally make the plunge to register (Hi guys). GW and PP aside the pull to plastic seem to be related to a limited number of participants acting as a support industry to smallish miniature companies taking advantage of recent advances integrating 3D sculpting with steel mould making reducing the cost of producing plastic.

Overseas the guys who aquired Wargames Factory seem to be engaged with quite a few companies, like Wyrd (who seem to have outsourced the whole worklflow from design to production to Ghost Studios) and producing the models for Catalyst Game Labs' game Leviathan and for DreamForge-Games. A few years ago they worked with Bastion Studios too. All of the companies mentioned are using the same design software Freeform provided by Geomagic (formerly Sensable (I would love to know which model is depicted)) and casting their plastic with both regular two part moulds and slide core moulds, the last type making undercuts possible. It seems to me that this partnership between established toy manufacturers and small miniature companies paired with Crowd Funding lovers the bar for going into high quality plastic production while avoid buying the equipment themselves like Reaper seem to have done. It seems to me like this tiny niche (compared to the toy industry as a whole) can be served by one or a few production companies. With time they will probably reduce glitches and lag related to packing and shipping reducing risk.

I would be deligted to know who does the actual production for Wild West Exodus. I understand that PP has set up their own link with production in Asia keeping design inhouse. It would be interesting to know how many mould making production representatives there are out there engaged in this small niche of ours.

These links are scored around the interwebs, some from googling, some from Warseer, DakkaDakka and TMP. Thanks.

I remember when plastic models were the cheap, ugly stepsister of 'proper metal miniatures'!