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The rules are pretty clear about telling your opponent what models you're using, what's in reserves, what's inside your transports. In the real world though, I would think it would be nearly impossible to tell which transport had the commander in it, or what was inside in general. I realize it's just a game we're playing, but what do you all think? Should we have to spell out the details?

In my games, if I'm asked whats in my transports, I tell. I then also ask about theirs.
If neither of us asks, then I don't tell.
It depends on who you're playing with.

This is a game, though, not real life. 40k doesn't use fog of war.

It is more of a mechanic to prevent cheating. When it is clear for everyone what is in which transport you can't secretly decide "those guys where in that one instead".

Yup, allowing secrecy unfortunately encourages shell games.

What's a shell game?

3 cups, one ball. After a little shuffling the mark tries to guess what cup the ball is under. The trick is that the person running the game/con has used some slight of hand, so the ball isn't under ANY of the cups, he places it after the player has guessed wrong.

In 40k terms, you have 3 rhinos, 2 with tac squads, one with a full plasma sternguard. Guess which one is in rapid fire range of your terminators? If you aren't playing with full discloser against someone unscrupulous, it's the sternguard.

But in real life the general can't switch around the units between the available transports according to the situation he is facing, once they have to get out.

The only way of combining not revealed units and fairness is to write it down which unit rides in which transport before the game.

 Nevelon wrote:
3 cups, one ball. After a little shuffling the mark tries to guess what cup the ball is under. The trick is that the person running the game/con has used some slight of hand, so the ball isn't under ANY of the cups, he places it after the player has guessed wrong.

In 40k terms, you have 3 rhinos, 2 with tac squads, one with a full plasma sternguard. Guess which one is in rapid fire range of your terminators? If you aren't playing with full discloser against someone unscrupulous, it's the sternguard.

Lol - Thanks, I get the analogy now.

I had that happen to me. One game I had, Tigurius leapt out of a rhino and started fighting my csms. 2 turns later, my opponant said 'oh, he wasn't supposed to be in that rhino, he was supposed to be in the other one, can I swap him?'. Which was near where I was attacking with allied demons.He wasn't happy when I said 'no, too much has happened to swap now.'

Good times.

I usually put a model representing the squad on top of the transport to not forget which squad goes where.
How can this even be an issue?

Kajon wrote:
I usually put a model representing the squad on top of the transport to not forget which squad goes where.
How can this even be an issue?

It's an issue because some people are not very sportsmanlike and try to gain the advantage in any way possible.

Also I use your method for my Trukks - helps me remember which one has a Warboss in when there's 6 Trukks on the field

Kajon wrote:
I usually put a model representing the squad on top of the transport to not forget which squad goes where.
How can this even be an issue?

Exactly also my rhinos are squad marked so i know which rhino goes with which squad.

 gaovinni wrote:
It is more of a mechanic to prevent cheating. When it is clear for everyone what is in which transport you can't secretly decide "those guys where in that one instead".

An easy counter to this, and one I've made judicious use of during friendly (as well as 'competitive', I suppose) campaigns is to keep it secret, but have it written down.

As all my Marine units run in transports specific to them, this usually isn't a problem for me; my opponent knows my Terminators or Death Company are in a Land Raider, my opponent knows my Grey Shoulder Pad Tacs are in my Grey trimmed Rhino, My Yellow Shoulder Pad Tacs are in my Yellow trimmed Rhino etc...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gaovinni wrote:
It is more of a mechanic to prevent cheating. When it is clear for everyone what is in which transport you can't secretly decide "those guys where in that one instead".

An easy counter to this, and one I've made judicious use of during friendly (as well as 'competitive', I suppose) campaigns is to keep it secret, but have it written down.

As all my Marine units run in transports specific to them, this usually isn't a problem for me; my opponent knows my Terminators or Death Company are in a Land Raider, my opponent knows my Grey Shoulder Pad Tacs are in my Grey trimmed Rhino, My Yellow Shoulder Pad Tacs are in my Yellow trimmed Rhino etc...

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 gaovinni wrote:
It is more of a mechanic to prevent cheating. When it is clear for everyone what is in which transport you can't secretly decide "those guys where in that one instead".

An easy counter to this, and one I've made judicious use of during friendly (as well as 'competitive', I suppose) campaigns is to keep it secret, but have it written down.

As all my Marine units run in transports specific to them, this usually isn't a problem for me; my opponent knows my Terminators or Death Company are in a Land Raider, my opponent knows my Grey Shoulder Pad Tacs are in my Grey trimmed Rhino, My Yellow Shoulder Pad Tacs are in my Yellow trimmed Rhino etc...

The problem is - not everyone is as ossim as this (this is what I do too).

As far as the OP - Yes, in real life you don't know...also in real life you are not an all-knowing general with a birds eye view of the battlefield, with complete control over unit movement and free will and that two sides in war are not balanced by points...lol. Also, IRL, not every tank on the field is identical...

The thing is, being secretive is unsportsmanlike...it is a game. honestly - if I knew my opponent was going to not tell me during the game what was in a squad, I would require him to write down on paper what is in what, and then put the paper somewhere he couldn't change what was written on it.

This also goes along with which psyker has which power - someone mentioned this a while back...if you want to keep it secretive...fine...but also expect me to do the same...

 Amaraxis wrote:

The problem is - not everyone is as ossim as this (this is what I do too).

As far as the OP - Yes, in real life you don't know...also in real life you are not an all-knowing general with a birds eye view of the battlefield, with complete control over unit movement and free will and that two sides in war are not balanced by points...lol. Also, IRL, not every tank on the field is identical...

The thing is, being secretive is unsportsmanlike...it is a game. honestly - if I knew my opponent was going to not tell me during the game what was in a squad, I would require him to write down on paper what is in what, and then put the paper somewhere he couldn't change what was written on it.

This also goes along with which psyker has which power - someone mentioned this a while back...if you want to keep it secretive...fine...but also expect me to do the same...

Ossim?

You said "Is Unsportsmanlike" and I immediately went on youtube and looked at Unsportsmanlike Fouls (Flagrant) in NBL games.

It's kinda scary that that's so deeply programmed in me...

On another hand, I completely agree. I will do my best to be as open as possible. I also have a rule that I'll use the same coloured dice (Green for Lascannons, Black for Autocannons on a Predator, for example) for the same weapons each turn. That way, if my opponent wasn't watching when I rolled dice I can simply take the dice I rolled because I've used those colours consistently.

One way I've found to counter the magic unit shuffle when playing secretive lists is that you take one person from each squad and try to fit them in the back of the Rhino. My squads have some identifier to them, so when I disembark all I have to do is check which guy I stuffed in the Rhino and take all the similarly marked models.

Doesn't work if you've glued the doors shut, though...

It's a game. Full disclosure is the way to go.

For all those people declaring Full Disclosure... anyone remember when you used to have special wargear to tell you what your opponent's army list said?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
For all those people declaring Full Disclosure... anyone remember when you used to have special wargear to tell you what your opponent's army list said?

What/when was that? as you can probably guess, I don't remember...

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Amaraxis wrote:

The problem is - not everyone is as ossim as this (this is what I do too).

As far as the OP - Yes, in real life you don't know...also in real life you are not an all-knowing general with a birds eye view of the battlefield, with complete control over unit movement and free will and that two sides in war are not balanced by points...lol. Also, IRL, not every tank on the field is identical...

The thing is, being secretive is unsportsmanlike...it is a game. honestly - if I knew my opponent was going to not tell me during the game what was in a squad, I would require him to write down on paper what is in what, and then put the paper somewhere he couldn't change what was written on it.

This also goes along with which psyker has which power - someone mentioned this a while back...if you want to keep it secretive...fine...but also expect me to do the same...

Ossim?

You said "Is Unsportsmanlike" and I immediately went on youtube and looked at Unsportsmanlike Fouls (Flagrant) in NBL games.

It's kinda scary that that's so deeply programmed in me...

On another hand, I completely agree. I will do my best to be as open as possible. I also have a rule that I'll use the same coloured dice (Green for Lascannons, Black for Autocannons on a Predator, for example) for the same weapons each turn. That way, if my opponent wasn't watching when I rolled dice I can simply take the dice I rolled because I've used those colours consistently.

Ossim = Awesome but spelled the Ossim way...lol

And I never really thought about the different colored dice....I just had an epiphany - make a reference card and give to the opponent so that they know just from looking at the dice what they are (maybe include stats/special rules)...it might not be for everyone...but will speed up rolling and make sure there is no 'accidental' confusion ('No,m the red one is my lascannon and the blue is the plasma' followed by accusations of cheating, then people getting pissed, the game changed cause of the reroll, don't make it into top 4 where you would have one, then you meet the guy out back and beat him senseless and then hunt down his family and torture them....my, that escalated quick...huh)

I play in a campaign with closed list rules. The rules are simple though. Everything has to be WYSIWYG and you have to declare what unit is in what transport, what unit is Deepstriking, Outflanking or simply in reserves. All lists have to be approved by the campaign manager before hand.

All other games in our store are generally played open list and most people either paint their transports distinctively to match their squads or mark them appropriately. Anything else is considered bad form and you always explain to your opponent how you marked your transports.

We play closed list games all the time among friends, it’s a blast. It makes the game more interesting and allows for lots of surprises. You can only play closed list among trusted friends because, unfortunately people can’t be trusted among the current tournament crowd and it is bad enough playing against the random game store kid.


Furyou Miko-
I can remember when there was wargear for that. In fact there are still a number of items in fantasy that still do that.

I like the compromise. Prepare small cards which note a transport's contents and place them under the tank, moving both simultaneously. When the time comes, reveal card and miniatures.

As far as the realism in announcing it right away is concerned, though, I could actually see most armies painting their transports with special insignia or featuring various special decoration to mark the commander... This is 40k, after all, where people occasionally run into battle with giant flags stuck to their backpack, and even the Imperial Guard marks its command vehicles (as per the Codex at least).

 Enzephalon wrote:
But in real life the general can't switch around the units between the available transports according to the situation he is facing, once they have to get out.

The only way of combining not revealed units and fairness is to write it down which unit rides in which transport before the game.

Yeah, but the rules don't cover that.

You could have a house rule that you secretly write down who's in what transport, but thats a house rule.


Normally, I just take a guy from each squad and stick him on the top of the vehicle to illustrate who's inside. It works well enough.

 Lynata wrote:
I like the compromise. Prepare small cards which note a transport's contents and place them under the tank, moving both simultaneously. When the time comes, reveal card and miniatures.

As far as the realism in announcing it right away is concerned, though, I could actually see most armies painting their transports with special insignia or featuring various special decoration to mark the commander... This is 40k, after all, where people occasionally run into battle with giant flags stuck to their backpack, and even the Imperial Guard marks its command vehicles (as per the Codex at least).

Im going to agree with this one, the fact that imperials like to show off and military intelligence typically means you have an idea of who is where before the battle starts. Besides, you ever see the picture of Marneus Calgars Landraider? Warboss? look for the biggest trukk with the most junk. Dark Eldar? Do you think the archon would ride in a normal raider without his prostitute slaves? Its pretty obvious whos going to be riding that. Im sure just like in the real world you can identify someone by their personal car, so you can also identify an HQ or similar by their personal transport. The only race i can see not doing this may be eldar, with all their deception, but even then they like to be flashy to let the weak races know whos boss.

 Juvieus Kaine wrote:

Kajon wrote:
I usually put a model representing the squad on top of the transport to not forget which squad goes where.
How can this even be an issue?

It's an issue because some people are not very sportsmanlike and try to gain the advantage in any way possible.

Technically, demanding that your opponent tell you which units are in which transports is the exact same thing.


The ideal way to do is is to have friendly agreement where the player writes the contents of each transport down before hand, and then can show you the piece of paper which proves the contents. Some kind of marker on or next to the vehicle (1, 2, 3 etc works best), with a corresponding entry on the piece of paper or card or whatever.


There's really no "wrong" or "right" answer to this, but the defending player has no inherent "right to know" on transports, only the right to know that the other player is not being underhanded and playing to advantage.

I've made the same mistake. I even had it written on my army sheet and explained to my opponent what was where I didn't even realize till after the game and was putting everything up that the wrong squad came out of the wrong chimera. I have seen countless others mix it up too. Even w/ full disclosure there are mistakes. I'd rather everyone know what was where just a minimum to catch those mistakes.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
There's really no "wrong" or "right" answer to this, but the defending player has no inherent "right to know" on transports, only the right to know that the other player is not being underhanded and playing to advantage.

The deployment rules state that you have to tell your opponent...

Use the same method like placing a bet:

Write in your army list the unique identifier for the vehicle that unit is in.

That way it is written down and you can show your opponent if they forgot to ask what was in the vehicle when the time to reveal comes.

It's an obvious mechanic to prevent cheating, but having squads in transports have a "fog of war" is something that adds quite an interesting element to "fun" games, where there's no worry about cheating in the first place. I actually prefer it, as it adds some drama to the game.

I would totally play by the rules if squads in transports were secret, but there's no way on Earth I would trust half of the 40K players out there to do the same, especially in tournaments. So it's an error on the safe side, if anything.