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 Kerrathyr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Necrons, no contest.

Second to all you said and I may add that, if you kill them they (ok, not all) come back and also that, iirc, they all have Ld 10

LD 10, oh noes, let's jut forget about the fact that most armies in this game are immune to fear and sweeping advance -_____________________-

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Kerrathyr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Necrons, no contest.

Second to all you said and I may add that, if you kill them they (ok, not all) come back and also that, iirc, they all have Ld 10

LD 10, oh noes, let's jut forget about the fact that most armies in this game are immune to fear and sweeping advance -_____________________-

Mmm... True...

I wish there was a counter to ATSKNF, in the same way that ATSKNF is a counter to Fear, and that Fear is a counter to anything that can even concieve of a cowardly act, but charged you anyway.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:


Without which Lords would pretty much be nothing more than ablative wounds and a 100pt tax to unlock royal courts.

Even without MSS, a Necron Lord would have better defenses than an assault terminator (2+/3++), since it's also T5 and can pop right back up. Then you remember that it is basically swinging a chainfist with -1S that will go before any weapon even remotely close that is not being wielded by Kharn the Betrayer on the charge or Abaddon. and that it -still- unlocks a court yhat lets you game night-fighting to your advantage.

So, yeah. MSS basically exists to make psychostroke grenades look sane.

 Amaya wrote:
ASFAIK Dark Angels are meh, Necrons are good. How are CSM and Daemons?

Power wise, CSM are ok, there codex has generated a lot of hate because many players wanted more options for representing the original traitor legions.

Demons, in my view near terrible, easily as bad as they were for most of the previous edition.
(following is from a post i made on another forum)

We are in 6th edition which has a lot of flyers and not a few that are broken. Demons cant do jack-all against flyers. You have bs 3 soulgrinders for your main antiflier support, good luck taking out av12 and you will struggle with AV11.

Flying monstrous creatures have the ridiculous grounding rule that means your FMC will be blown out of the sky about as fast as poop goes through a goose or you can say "GW price rise".

The random rolling for effects and gear/options is hit or miss depending on your personal preference so there is no point in making a value judgement that it is good or bad. However, it has the potential for slowing the game down and perhaps more potential than many rules for people to cheat and "forget" which roll they made for gear during the game. I think 6th edition already has too many rules that arent really needed and I find the random table design to be a lazy man's approach to game design.

Monsterous creatures cost way too many points for their ability and durability

The troop selections are mostly crap, cheaper, but still crap

Too many fantasy rules leaking into 40k in this codex, more lazy design

Fiends nerfed for no good reason

warpflame rule = stupid

The skull cannon is good for taking out troops but this is not the kind of shooting the army needs

GK are still a very hard counter to this army, even GK as allies optimized for an all comers list will wipe the floor with demons

5+ is lame, its the same as the usual/common cover save nearly everyone will get on any table with reasonable terrain

The demon army will struggle against a lot of chimeras and/or rhinos. Eventually people will figure out chimeras arent as bad as initial predictions so I expect IG with lots of vehicles and firepower to just annihilate demons with ease.

Flyers, tanks, shooting; three things that are mainstays of 6th edition are all things demons are weak against. Consistency, a hallmark of any good "all comers" army is sadly lacking due to all the random rolls. I could see taking demon allies with CSM for purely fluff reasons. If you are designing an army that you are serious about performing well and consistently on the table top I dont think you would pick demons.

JWhex wrote:

 Amaya wrote:
ASFAIK Dark Angels are meh, Necrons are good. How are CSM and Daemons?

Power wise, CSM are ok, there codex has generated a lot of hate because many players wanted more options for representing the original traitor legions.

Demons, in my view near terrible, easily as bad as they were for most of the previous edition.
(following is from a post i made on another forum)

We are in 6th edition which has a lot of flyers and not a few that are broken. Demons cant do jack-all against flyers. You have bs 3 soulgrinders for your main antiflier support, good luck taking out av12 and you will struggle with AV11.

Flying monstrous creatures have the ridiculous grounding rule that means your FMC will be blown out of the sky about as fast as poop goes through a goose or you can say "GW price rise".

The random rolling for effects and gear/options is hit or miss depending on your personal preference so there is no point in making a value judgement that it is good or bad. However, it has the potential for slowing the game down and perhaps more potential than many rules for people to cheat and "forget" which roll they made for gear during the game. I think 6th edition already has too many rules that arent really needed and I find the random table design to be a lazy man's approach to game design.

Monsterous creatures cost way too many points for their ability and durability

The troop selections are mostly crap, cheaper, but still crap

Too many fantasy rules leaking into 40k in this codex, more lazy design

Fiends nerfed for no good reason

warpflame rule = stupid

The skull cannon is good for taking out troops but this is not the kind of shooting the army needs

GK are still a very hard counter to this army, even GK as allies optimized for an all comers list will wipe the floor with demons

5+ is lame, its the same as the usual/common cover save nearly everyone will get on any table with reasonable terrain

The demon army will struggle against a lot of chimeras and/or rhinos. Eventually people will figure out chimeras arent as bad as initial predictions so I expect IG with lots of vehicles and firepower to just annihilate demons with ease.

Flyers, tanks, shooting; three things that are mainstays of 6th edition are all things demons are weak against. Consistency, a hallmark of any good "all comers" army is sadly lacking due to all the random rolls. I could see taking demon allies with CSM for purely fluff reasons. If you are designing an army that you are serious about performing well and consistently on the table top I dont think you would pick demons.

Spoken like someone who hasn't even tried playing an actual game with the new codex yet...

- Daemons have no trouble vs the average 2-4 Flyers. Plaguebears w/Aegis line quad-gun, Soul Grinders, any FMC, 7D6/S6 Flickering Fire w/Prescience... Yep, sure looks like Daemons will auto-lose vs even a single flyer to me.

- FMC's may not be as outright amazin gas flyers, but they're hardly trash. Besides, at least ours get saves when being grounded - that's more than Tyranids get.

- The random stuff is being so overblown it isn't even funny anymore...
The Warpstorm table gives us an added bonus to our shooting phase which is pretty quick otherwise outside of a heavy/mono-Tzeentch army.
The Reward tables let us freaking tailor our characters to our enemy! Or at worst, we can load-up on champions w/initiative-order ap2 ccw's for a whole 15pts. I can hear every single MEQ player crying foul right about now...
If it takes you more than 5 minutes to roll up and record everything, then you need to learn how to write properly.

- MC's are no longer super cheap auto-takes that can solo half an army - get over it! Besides, we have 'Thirsters that essentially come fully equiped, GUO's & Princes get Biomancy for cheesing things up and LoC gets Divination and is a combat beatstick w/Eternal Blade.
Our Monstrous gribblies are overall pretty fairly costed for what they do... Even the Keeper who's somewhat lackluster compared to all the others is still the cheaper at base cost and can take Telepathy for fun! (invisibility anyone?!)

- How are our Troops crap? 9pts gets us T4/Shrouded objective campers. Or a reiculously fast, high initiative combat girl with Rending. And for a whole extra point, we can get our hands on WS5/S4/ap3 MEQ beatsticks.
Large Troops units are even scarier when supported by their relevent Heralds.

- How are Fiends nerfed? Sure, they lost 2 attacks. They gained +1 wound, move even faster than before (as if that was even possible), inflict -1Ld to nearby enemy psykers AND anything they charge get's hit by -5I!
Add a mounted Herald w/Locus of Beguilment + Greater Etherblade and laugh at anything that's not a Deathstar. (actually, even some Deathstars will still fear that...)

- Warpflame isn't stupid. It simply means Tzeentch shooters need to focus fire and outright kill or cripple their target/s.

- The Skullcannon does more than simply kill enemy troops...

- GK's eye-raping Daemons is not an issue of Codex: Daemons being underpowered, but rather the GK book being outright beyond broken against us.

- 5++ can't ever be ignored. Yes it makes us more vulnerable to small arms than say MEQ's are. We're also more resiliant to all the scariest crap than aynthing else in the game. And again, rolling a 10 on the Warpstorm table gives you +1 to your saves for a turn, and Tzeentch can take Divination which has a power that does the same for a chosen unit.
5++ has been pretty standard for Daemons for a long time. Not sure why you think this is suddenly a huge issue...

- The Daemon army has Rending and high strength attacks out the wazoo. Bring your tanks. I've got more options for Rending, psudo-gauss Plagueswords, armourbane, S5/6 basic attacks, etc... than I know what to do with. And that's before I look at what shooting options I've got!



Mass flyer spam is a problem for every fething army in the game bar the flyer-spamers themselves!
The tanks & shooting on the otherhand has all of 1 turn to kill my entire army, (which can now simply deploy normally AND all at once!), before I start ripping them into tiny little pieces.
GK's may still laugh at Daemons true, (but then their book is designed to outright curbstomp us so why is that so surprising?) Everyone else on the otherhand...

Daemons may not be the brand new top-tier god-level codex. But aside from the GK issue, they're a solid book that have tools to deal with pretty much anything. (except GK's of corse)

Eldar have four votes... Really people!?

One good piece of gear does not make the second oldest codex (IIRC) OP.

I think a lot of people voted for eldar, sisters, etc because they thought the poll was stupid.

There should be a "your mom" option haha

warpspider89 wrote:
Eldar have four votes... Really people!?

One godly piece of gear does not make the second oldest codex (IIRC) OP.

Fixed that for you!

In all fairness, Runes of F-you psykers isn't game-breaking in the least when you look at things like Necrons in general, Psycho/Rad grenades and some of the other undercosted options out there... Besides, Runes will almost certainly get fixed within 8 months anyways.

 Melissia wrote:
I think a lot of people voted for eldar, sisters, etc because they thought the poll was stupid.

I'll admit to one of those sister votes being mine, just done for the lols.

I was not disappointed.

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I think a lot of people voted for eldar, sisters, etc because they thought the poll was stupid.

I'll admit to one of those sister votes being mine, just done for the lols.

I was not disappointed.

Same here.

Necrons. Holy ever living-dead Necrons. Heres an idea: Lets make a MEQ, that when it dies, you roll a die to see if you get a free 16pt(?) model back! Well forget that, lets make an entire squad of that. NO! Even BETTER! Let's make ALL the Infantry in a codex do that! So then we have to give them bad vehicles and guns to make up for it then right? HECKS NO BRO! They got crazy fluff technology! We'll give them something better the the Tau Railgun, on a freaking PLANE THING. Heres to you Necroisant! *blows brains out*

How are Tau OP? at least one person put that up there. Broadsides? Their good thanks to a quirk of re-rolling. Turns out when the rules uniformly put everyone at the same level to shoot air, the unit with more dice and/or re-rolls thinks your cute. Maybe in a like 500-750pt game but I don't see it otherwise.

For anyone saying Daemons are OP - they have massive weaknesses.

For anyone saying Daemons are under powered - they seem designed to ally with CSM, who's strong points almost exactly match the daemons weak points and vice versa.

Vaktathi wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:While they don't get wrecked in the crash, they still get thrown into reserves and have to walk on the board

To be fair it's still infinitely better than being destroyed, and means they can secure/reinforce your own objectives

Actually, I'd one-up this.

In a regular transport, when you cause a vehicle explosion, a lot of guys are killed. When you take down a flying transport, it's a death sentence to those inside.

When you shoot down a necron flier, the unit inside gets to teleport, unharmed, directly to any objective within 9" of their board edge. Either you get to capture/contest an opponent's objective with contemptible ease, or you get to do it to one of your own objectives, EVEN WHEN YOU GET SHOT DOWN.

More than a little silly, in my book.

I'm kind of (extremely, actually) shocked to see the Guard get so many votes.

Personally, I think they are all pretty balanced. Some of them have units that are very easy to use, which makes it easy for players with a poorer grasp of tactics to win with them. I don't think that makes those units "better," it just makes them more intuitive (or basic information on how to use them more widespread).

Personal opinion, of course, which most people obviously don't agree with.

@Jimsolo>>>Y'know I thought so to, until I played against the HQ choice they can take that can throw down two special orders a turn that paired even remotely effectively can mean death to alot of units. He wasn't THAT bad but...ugh. Didn't help that the same guy used that Forgeworld flyer withtwinlinked punisher cannons that kills a unit per turn. That got banned from my games hardcore. But technically thats not in their Codex. I'm told IG have always been top three level power though so I could see it.

I think the Guard votes are mainly due to the tendency of some doinks to spam Vendettas like they are going out of style.

I went against an 12 Vendetta list last night. Didn't exactly warm the cockles of my heart...

Being able to Pieplate an army out of existence on turn one may have it's part too


Guard have their weaknesses, but they are still a stonking strong codex.

You're surprised to see that the most common ally in the game is voted highly? Really? Let's run down a list:

Best troops in the game in terms of options, as well as the fact they can have the most troops of any codex - this, in an edition revolving around troops

The only codex with blob squads, with at least 5 characters in

One of the best flyers in the game which is so good it was undercosted in 5th when you still used normal BS to hit it

Orders, which make the already impressive fire power of the guard utterly incredible

Access to good large blast weapons, many of which are barrage for character sniping. In particular, Griffons, Basilisks and Manticores are super good and just wreck stuff. Leman Russes are also amazing

If you use Forge World, they have access to the best stuff bar none. Scoring artillery with skyfire/interceptor, 75 point S8 AP3 large blast barrage weapons, Vultures, Thudd Guns... it's really quite astonishing

Best shooting in the game, easily. You can have a lasplas squad for 85 points and take that up to 30 times in one FOC. Remarkably, that's not even the best option

Allies with most armies. This is the true strength in 6th - any army can get access to an incredible flyer, a great heavy support piece and a ton of troops - even most IG primary armies don't use most than 2 troop slots and that's what allies have access to! There's a reason we see so many IG allies in tournaments.

It's an incredible codex and, IMO, has been one of, if not the utmost, the top armies in the game since it was released. It's marginally worse after the vehicle nerf but rather than spamming tanks, it can now have 50 man fearless/ATSKNF blobs with 5 power axes and the ability to throw away characters in challenges risk free. I'd rather face Necrons than IG any day.

 Sigvatr wrote:
LD 10, oh noes, let's jut forget about the fact that most armies in this game are immune to fear and sweeping advance -_____________________-

Pity that those armies do not come back to life (save a handful of pricy characters)... but let's ignore it, the fact that LD is used for other tests, and let's ignore that if the unit falls back far enought, they do not self-resurrect...

RP units self-resurrect
Add resurrection orb
Add a chain effect weapon (tesla, anyone?) from a weapon usable by all the models in one unit
Add flyer transports (with benefits mentioned in above messages)
Hypothesis: ten immortals, ten tesla carbines, joined overlord with res. orb, dedicated night scythe > 390

For that price I can't think of an similarly powerful unit.

In addition, necrons *also* have fearless units, units with an absurd Preferred Enemy (everything!)

Just for curiosity's sake, I'd like to know what could be the cost of some units, calculated by the very first edition rules...

I repeat myself: it was just a ghost ark, but we cheered when it went down

They're all perfectly balanced, I can't even begin to understand how nobody save 5 people can see that.

Now pass an LD test on 3D6 or gut yourself.

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I think a lot of people voted for eldar, sisters, etc because they thought the poll was stupid.

I'll admit to one of those sister votes being mine, just done for the lols.

I was not disappointed.

I'm also guilty of this.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
They're all perfectly balanced, I can't even begin to understand how nobody save 5 people can see that.

Now pass an LD test on 3D6 or gut yourself.

Please tell me you're being sarcastic :/

I'm surprised people complain about the Wraithwings and 'Cron Air. As a Necron player, I have no interest in either list (Wraith models are spindly as crap and I only have two croissants).

Realistically, I love Av13 wall lists. I bring Imotek and a Chronomatron Cryptek, 3 Anni Barges, 2 Ghost Arks, 2 Triarch Stalkers, and some flyers. The 4+ seize, the night fighting boosted jinking Av13, and the guns have been a terror to my local meta. I played a Tau match up last week, used wraiths instead of more Av13... the wraiths did okay, but I jinked just about every railgun shot that came my way. Ended up winning with 4 objectives, slay the warlord, line breaker, and first blood. It was dirty.

I'm going to augment my list by bringing in Grey Knights with Coteaz, DCA, Stormraven and maybe a psiflemen dread for extra S8 punch. I'll have a cheap, scoring CC unit (cheaper than wraiths or royal court), a supreme flyer supported with a croissant backup, and still all the Av13 and night fighting. (and searchlights on the dread and raven,... and I'll have divination on Coteaz to give my Raven a 4++ save, if lucky!)

Necron Av13 wall = dirtiest. I fear vendettas a bit, but CSM I laugh at because they rarely have >S7 guns and the hell turkey can do jack crap as long as I'm in a vehicle!

I votes IG because while it lacks the WTF-factor of present-day Necrons, it's just too efficient.

Its vehicles are actually better than the Marine/xenos equivalents for the same role: cheaper, resilient, fire amazing weapons and can be fit in quantity into a list. It's like Cruddace considers BS3 to be a horrible handicap and boosted everything else to 11 while jacking the price down.

Orders compound the issue. You already have more and stronger stuff than the other guy, now lets get your guys to act twice, never miss, or stay on the board longer. The Vendetta is a big issue but hardly the only one: veteran squads, blobs, AV12+ spam (a cheap transpot that allows 5 guys to fire from the inside?), platoons.

Add allies and you have literally no weaknesses. You can get the best psykers from other Imperial armies, join ATSKNF models to your units to troll people, and get to be amazing at CC if you bring in Space Wolves or Dark Angels. That's only if you really care, though, because you hav ethe option of just piling on more pie plates and half-priced flyng death.

Selym wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
They're all perfectly balanced, I can't even begin to understand how nobody save 5 people can see that.

Now pass an LD test on 3D6 or gut yourself.

Please tell me you're being sarcastic :/

No, you'll have to guess! Muwahahahaha!


Of course I was being sarcastic; I really didn't think there was any question about it.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

Selym wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:
They're all perfectly balanced, I can't even begin to understand how nobody save 5 people can see that.

Now pass an LD test on 3D6 or gut yourself.

Please tell me you're being sarcastic :/

No, you'll have to guess! Muwahahahaha!


Of course I was being sarcastic; I really didn't think there was any question about it.

 Sephyr wrote:
I votes IG because while it lacks the WTF-factor of present-day Necrons, it's just too efficient.

Its vehicles are actually better than the Marine/xenos equivalents for the same role: cheaper, resilient, fire amazing weapons and can be fit in quantity into a list. It's like Cruddace considers BS3 to be a horrible handicap and boosted everything else to 11 while jacking the price down.

Keep in mind half the Xenos books are still 4E books, especially Tau and Eldar, which were costed and designed to the ridiculous invinci-skimmer 4E vehicle rules. Comparing them isn't exactly great. As for compared to marines, none of their tanks that serve the same role are cheaper, a Chimera is not cheaper than a Rhino or a Razorback (unless you give the Razorback AT guns that the Chimera can't get), a Leman Russ is not cheaper than a Predator. That said, they're supposed to have better tanks than the Marines, since they rely on them a lot more as guardsmen suck, the Marines have amazing infantry and their tanks are support units. Nothing about this has changed since 2nd edition.

Also, tanks are...mediocre at best in 6th edition, unable to affect mission objectives at all and easier to kill than they've ever been in just about any edition.

Orders compound the issue. You already have more and stronger stuff than the other guy, now lets get your guys to act twice, never miss, or stay on the board longer.

Yes, the T3 5+sv infantry units that otherwise don't get cool abilities like ATSKNF, Combat & Chapter Tactics, Descent of Angels, Counterattack, Chaos Marks, army-wide Furious Charge/Waagh, Brotherhood of Psykers/etc. They don't go off automatically (failing 28% of the time on most units, 42% of the time on units like Heavy Weapons squads), the ones that *really* matter can only be issued by a CCS.

Nothing allows them to 'never miss', at best it reduces their hit rate to 25% (slightly better than BS4) against Tanks and MC's specifically if a CCS is within 12" of them and has LoS to the target himself and the target unit gets off their LD7/8 test, likewise, nothing allows them to shoot twice in a turn or anything like that. Most of the Orders stuff is hugely situational.

The Vendetta is a big issue but hardly the only one: veteran squads, blobs, AV12+ spam (a cheap transpot that allows 5 guys to fire from the inside?), platoons.

Vendettas yes, they're dumb.

Veterans? Veterans are only good when used in conjunction with a transport (otherwise they're just guardsmen with 2 extra special weapons options and BS4 at a 40% price premium before you buy any guns), which are far less effective in 6E, and how often do you see footslogging vets? .

Blobs are strong, but hardly broken, especially in 6E where assault utility and wound allocation makes it much more awkward to work.

AV12 spam was great in 5th, super strong, but 6th specifically made mid-AV vehicles about the easiest things in the game to engage and destroy, it's probably one of the easiest builds for most armies to defeat in 6th.

I think you're the first person I've seen complain about Platoons in general, they've been operating like that since 2nd edition. You can fit in a lot of dudes, but most of the platoon units are thoroughly "meh", not just in an absolute sense but for their cost as well, especially as the fire support units lack unit leaders and leave them at Ld7.

I keep reading that MSS is way to overpowered,
as far as it goes for reading the rulebook, it would seem that there are ways around MSS
Simply be the Assaulter!!
MSS scarabs says before any blows have been struck
Issuing a challenge says the exact same thing

conclusion, whoevers turn it is gets to choose which is taken first

So, assault the necrons, put some basic troop in base contact with the lord, tell them to do MSS scarabs, THEN issue the challenge, and punch the lord in the face!

While they're certainly powerful, Guard aren't remotely "OP" until you begin factoring in allies. By adding allies, you allow the army to gain access to some special rules that are disproportionately beneficial to Guard, and provide the book with units that can cover its intended weaknesses. As allies themselves, Guard give a player the ability to leverage a ton of models into their allied detachment, which can be exploited to good effect by most armies.

I voted GKs, just because the Purifier spam list backed up by Storm Ravens is one of the most disgusting lists that I've seen (though Tervigon spam is a close second). That said, every GK army list is not that list, and if an opponent shows up with Grey Knights I'm not going to write them off as TFG out of hand. People are far too willing to put a label on an army list based solely on what codex that it is drawn from, instead of the content of the list itself.

Necrons - they have relatively cheap flyer transports which currently means they can out fly anyone with their army. They also have a lot of neat tricks they can pull with HQ and royal court. Compounded by the fact that we are in a mixed environment with some codex having answers to flyers and the old ones predating 6th and having a real problem dealing with them.