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The rules aren't written "if a model passes through terrain roll 3d6". A model moving through terrain does not in fact matter when determining charge distance. Only the shortest line between a charging model and the closest enemy in the target unit crossing terrain affects charge distance.

You only have to be able to successfully reach the closest model to engage the enemy unit. If the closest model is not in cover, you only roll 2d6 as the rest of the charged unit is irrelevent when it comes to determining range. However, after the charge range is determined, any models that had to go into terrain strike at I1.

Here's a question....say the range is just enough to engage the model outside of terrain, so no models ever cross into difficult terrain. Come the pile-in move, the charging unit can get into BTB with those models in cover. Do they strike at initiative (since you strike on the same initiative as your pile in) or do they suddenly drop to I1? I'm not sure if this is ever covered in the rules, but if precedence is to be followed, you would still strike at your initiative (see the ruling on Necron Wraith whipcoils)

Doesn't the picture on pg 22 clear all this up?

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
You only have to be able to successfully reach the closest model to engage the enemy unit. If the closest model is not in cover, you only roll 2d6 as the rest of the charged unit is irrelevent when it comes to determining range. However, after the charge range is determined, any models that had to go into terrain strike at I1.

Here's a question....say the range is just enough to engage the model outside of terrain, so no models ever cross into difficult terrain. Come the pile-in move, the charging unit can get into BTB with those models in cover. Do they strike at initiative (since you strike on the same initiative as your pile in) or do they suddenly drop to I1? I'm not sure if this is ever covered in the rules, but if precedence is to be followed, you would still strike at your initiative (see the ruling on Necron Wraith whipcoils)

Pile-in moves are unaffected by difficult terrain.

 Tito wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
You would roll 3d6 as there is a possibility to get in b2b with the back guy.

This is a reasonable answer, but it's not how the rule is written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tarrasq wrote:
The errata changes things. Before you roll for charge distance you have to look at the shortest route to the enemy (i.e. the closest enemy model) for each charging model. If those routes force you to cross DT you roll the 3d6.

In camarodragon's scenario the shortest route for both black models is to the closest orange model. Neither route crosses terrain. So you roll the 2d6.

The rules for moving charging models are separate from the rules for determining the charge distance dice. It is possible that you roll 2d6 and have to move through terrain when following the rules for moving charging models , and you suffer all the results of doing so (init penalty Dangerous Terrain tests).

This really underscores the importance of properly placing your models as leaving a straggler outside terrain can make it easier for your opponent to charge that unit, if he positions the charge correctly.

The errata doesn't change the fact that if one model from the unit passes through difficult terrain then the unit should roll 3d6. And if the roll on 2d6 is high enough the 2nd SM would be charging through terrrain to get into B2B

No it actually is how the rule is written, as I stated before the rules say you must engage as many as possible and you can't hold back to avoid terrain. Also the picture on page 22 does clear it up as well, also all the rules stating "if any model in the unit goes through terrain". Since you have no way of knowing what your roll will be you must assume maximum possible distance to engage as many as possible, which would require you to roll 3d6.

Look at this way, you're three inches from difficult terrain and you want to move (not charge, just move) in it, but you roll 2" on the dice so you never made it, so should you have rolled in the first place? It's the same scenario here.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Tito wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
You would roll 3d6 as there is a possibility to get in b2b with the back guy.

This is a reasonable answer, but it's not how the rule is written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tarrasq wrote:
The errata changes things. Before you roll for charge distance you have to look at the shortest route to the enemy (i.e. the closest enemy model) for each charging model. If those routes force you to cross DT you roll the 3d6.

In camarodragon's scenario the shortest route for both black models is to the closest orange model. Neither route crosses terrain. So you roll the 2d6.

The rules for moving charging models are separate from the rules for determining the charge distance dice. It is possible that you roll 2d6 and have to move through terrain when following the rules for moving charging models , and you suffer all the results of doing so (init penalty Dangerous Terrain tests).

This really underscores the importance of properly placing your models as leaving a straggler outside terrain can make it easier for your opponent to charge that unit, if he positions the charge correctly.

The errata doesn't change the fact that if one model from the unit passes through difficult terrain then the unit should roll 3d6. And if the roll on 2d6 is high enough the 2nd SM would be charging through terrrain to get into B2B

No it actually is how the rule is written, as I stated before the rules say you must engage as many as possible and you can't hold back to avoid terrain. Also the picture on page 22 does clear it up as well, also all the rules stating "if any model in the unit goes through terrain". Since you have no way of knowing what your roll will be you must assume maximum possible distance to engage as many as possible, which would require you to roll 3d6.

Look at this way, you're three inches from difficult terrain and you want to move (not charge, just move) in it, but you roll 2" on the dice so you never made it, so should you have rolled in the first place? It's the same scenario here.

+1 to this.

I understand that's how the rules are written, for moving charging models. This is a different issue.

The picture on page 22 is not showing how you move the charging models, it's showing how you check for terrain to determine charge distance. Each of those lines represent the shortest distance between the model and the enemy. Two of those lines cross terrain therefore you roll 3d6.

This determination of whether to throw the extra terrain die has nothing to do with the movement after the dice are thrown.

It's a very simple example on page 22. Both arrows show each model moving to the nearest enemy.
It doesn't show what's been discussed here at all.

The examples are usually over simplified and don't give much in the way of explaination when real game issues occur. Like this one.

Now if the lower enemy model had been a lot closer and they still had the arrows pointing to the same targets, that would be all the explaination that you needed.

Bottom line. The randomness of charge moves was not properly reconciled with movement through terrain. It's a serious flaw.

The picture is pretty clear on pg 22. If any model would have to draw a straight line going through DT, aka the shortest distance, to contact an enemy model the unit must roll 3d6.

It works for the pictured scenario earlier in the post as well. The closest black circle would charge the closest orange(who is outside terrain). But wait! The second orange circle is in terrain and the 2nd black circle must try to charge him and therefore the unit rolls 3d6.

I really don't see the confusion here.

Caboose

IamCaboose wrote:
The picture is pretty clear on pg 22. If any model would have to draw a straight line going through DT, aka the shortest distance, to contact an enemy model the unit must roll 3d6.

It works for the pictured scenario earlier in the post as well. The closest black circle would charge the closest orange(who is outside terrain). But wait! The second orange circle is in terrain and the 2nd black circle must try to charge him and therefore the unit rolls 3d6.

I really don't see the confusion here.

Caboose

While I agree with you completely on the pictured scenario earlier in the post. As well as all arguments of that nature.

The picture in the book doesn't show the scenario that exists in the earlier post. There is no example of how to measure your charge distance. Hence the arguments.

One camp says that you measure to the closest model to model regardless of whether or not that enemy model will be engaged after the charge is made.

The other camp states that you have to consider engagement of models when determining if you will have to move through cover.

The rules are a bit vague here. I'm in the second camp.

 Idolator wrote:


Bottom line. The randomness of charge moves was not properly reconciled with movement through terrain. It's a serious flaw.

ya no kidding.....





so if you take my example picture and you say.. alright.. the far model is 7 inches from the charge so I better roll for difficult terrain (3d6).. i roll a 2,4,4 ending up with a charge distace of 6 inches.. I make it in B2B with my initial model no problem. Now the 2nd model moves.. he cant make it in B2B with the model in the terrain so he moves into B2B with the first model as well.... Now heres the catch... whats my init value??? I rolled for difficult terrain, but I never actully went through difficult terrain.. ????????????????????????

Camarodragon,

Yes, that's the problem (if I can call it that) when we try to second guess possible outcomes from the dice roll. The simpler reading of the rules basically means the ork out front allows you to roll 2D6 since no model has to go into DT to engage it, it being the closest. Of course, if you roll "8" on your 2D6, SM1 goes b2b with the ork out front; SM2 goes b2b with the one in DT; the whole unit suffers the Init 1 penalty because 1 model had to go into DT (notwithstanding wargear that allows you to avoid this).

Snapshot wrote:
Camarodragon,

Yes, that's the problem (if I can call it that) when we try to second guess possible outcomes from the dice roll. The simpler reading of the rules basically means the ork out front allows you to roll 2D6 since no model has to go into DT to engage it, it being the closest. Of course, if you roll "8" on your 2D6, SM1 goes b2b with the ork out front; SM2 goes b2b with the one in DT; the whole unit suffers the Init 1 penalty because 1 model had to go into DT (notwithstanding wargear that allows you to avoid this).

Kevin has it right in this thread. If you pre-measure and find that the second ork is possible to reach with 2D6, you must roll 3D6 since the shortest route would carry the model through DT. If you roll 5" or less, then you base the first ork and the first ork only. If you roll 7" or more, you base the first ork, then base the second ork. If you end up rolling less than 5", then the charge fails.

 puma713 wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
Camarodragon,

Yes, that's the problem (if I can call it that) when we try to second guess possible outcomes from the dice roll. The simpler reading of the rules basically means the ork out front allows you to roll 2D6 since no model has to go into DT to engage it, it being the closest. Of course, if you roll "8" on your 2D6, SM1 goes b2b with the ork out front; SM2 goes b2b with the one in DT; the whole unit suffers the Init 1 penalty because 1 model had to go into DT (notwithstanding wargear that allows you to avoid this).

Kevin has it right in this thread. If you pre-measure and find that the second ork is possible to reach with 2D6, you must roll 3D6 since the shortest route would carry the model through DT. If you roll 5" or less, then you base the first ork and the first ork only. If you roll 7" or more, you base the first ork, then base the second ork. If you end up rolling less than 5", then the charge fails.

I'd love to be working this out in complex terrain with a blob squad of 50 conscripts charging a band of 30 ork boys. I think my brain might explode. More seriously...

Here's the errata'd rule again...

"If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the unit must make a Difficult Terrain test (see page 90)." The new bit is bold.

The main premise of my argument is the enemy in this context is the unit being charged, not the model you might end up in base contact with.

Working out the charge distance the way you suggest breaks the revised rule. The ork at the back requires 7+" to reach him, but the one out the front is only 5-6" away (assuming SM2 is an inch or so behind SM1).

It went from this::

If, when charging, one or more rnodels have to rnove through
di{ficult terrain, the unit must make a Difficult Terrain test (see
page 90).

To This:::

Page 22 ¬ Charge Move, Charging Through Difficult Terrain.
Change the first sentence to read “If, when charging, one or
more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to
reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the unit must
make a Difficult Terrain test (see page 90).”


Emphasis mine in what really changed in the paragraph.

This to me does not give me permission to invalidate all of the bullet points on pg 21. or at least invalidate

If possible, a charging model must move into base contact
with an enemy model within reach that is not already in
base contact with another charging model. If there are no
such enemy models in reach, the model must move into
base contact with an enemy model that is already in base
contact with a charging model.

You have to preplan your charge. You know your maximum charge range. 12" or 13" if you have the correct warlord trait. If I roll a 12 will that take me into difficult terrain??? yes roll 3d6.. if not roll 2d6..

in order to reach the enemy by the shortest possible route does not mean, as you are equating, if there are some models in cover you only have to engage those models if you roll high enough on 2d6 to do so, otherwise engage the one where you don't have to go through cover. I believe you taking "the shortest possible route" out of context. Because engaging black #2 to orange #2 is the next "shortest possible route" as I see it.

No problems. It's agree to disagree I think.

I agree thats its one of the sloppy written pieces in the book. This and the whole blast template hitting models it can't see bit..

Pg 21 handles the actual movement. Pg 22 and errata describes how you determine having roll for DT. It's like determining LOS in shooting. It's an abstraction. The movement comes later in the phase.

Also you determine the closest enemy for each charging model. It's. Not the closest model for the whole unit. After you roll the dice you then move the models to engage as many models as possible.

Camarodragon wrote:
I agree thats its one of the sloppy written pieces in the book. This and the whole blast template hitting models it can't see bit..

Hear Hear!!

 Tarrasq wrote:
Pg 21 handles the actual movement. Pg 22 and errata describes how you determine having roll for DT. It's like determining LOS in shooting. It's an abstraction. The movement comes later in the phase.

Also you determine the closest enemy for each charging model. It's. Not the closest model for the whole unit. After you roll the dice you then move the models to engage as many models as possible.

Quite. The distance to the enemy is model-specific.

 Tarrasq wrote:

Also you determine the closest enemy for each charging model. It's. Not the closest model for the whole unit. After you roll the dice you then move the models to engage as many models as possible.

You declare an assault against a unit. And then you roll the dice to determine charge distance. The only model that matters for "determining the closest enemy" is the initial charger. After him, you can move in any way you like except you must follow the rules on page 21. Now, seeing that your intial charger is going to base Ork 1, and seeing that you have the range to base Ork 2, you must roll 3D6 when setting up your charge. You do not measure "for each charging model". After the intial charger moves, you're done measuring who is closer to whom. You simply move and base unengaged models.

You do not measure for 10 marines to the single ork; to do so would be obtuse. You measure the closest model to the closest enemy model. Then, after him, you must base an unengaged model. Personally, I would like to check to see if I can reach that ork in the forest. I do check and realize he is 7" away. Therefore, I must try to base him (no avoiding terrain!) and therefore, realizing how my assault is going to unfold, I roll 3D6 because I am forced to.

Basically, ask yourself this question: If the terrain wasn't there, would I base that model? If the answer is yes, then roll 3D6.

 puma713 wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:

Also you determine the closest enemy for each charging model. It's. Not the closest model for the whole unit. After you roll the dice you then move the models to engage as many models as possible.

You declare an assault against a unit. And then you roll the dice to determine charge distance. The only model that matters for "determining the closest enemy" is the initial charger. After him, you can move in any way you like except you must follow the rules on page 21. Now, seeing that your intial charger is going to base Ork 1, and seeing that you have the range to base Ork 2, you must roll 3D6 when setting up your charge. You do not measure "for each charging model". After the intial charger moves, you're done measuring who is closer to whom. You simply move and base unengaged models.

You do not measure for 10 marines to the single ork; to do so would be obtuse. You measure the closest model to the closest enemy model. Then, after him, you must base an unengaged model. Personally, I would like to check to see if I can reach that ork in the forest. I do check and realize he is 7" away. Therefore, I must try to base him (no avoiding terrain!) and therefore, realizing how my assault is going to unfold, I roll 3D6 because I am forced to.

Basically, ask yourself this question: If the terrain wasn't there, would I base that model? If the answer is yes, then roll 3D6.

Except that is not what the rule appears to say. It would have been clear if they said something like "if there is a snowflake's chance in hell that you'll roll well enough for any of your models to hit DT, then roll 3d6". Maybe they meant that, but they chose a peculiar way to say it.

Which would be why in the end it's easiest to simply roll the extra off color d6 and only use it if needed. It covers all eventualities and prevents you from having to redo your roll and charge movement or to slow the game down even further by arguing that if you weren't good at rolling you wouldn't have had to go through terrain. Their idea of play testing themselves and running the rules as they think they should be run is flawed.

Camarodragon wrote:

 Idolator wrote:


Bottom line. The randomness of charge moves was not properly reconciled with movement through terrain. It's a serious flaw.

ya no kidding.....





so if you take my example picture and you say.. alright.. the far model is 7 inches from the charge so I better roll for difficult terrain (3d6).. i roll a 2,4,4 ending up with a charge distace of 6 inches.. I make it in B2B with my initial model no problem. Now the 2nd model moves.. he cant make it in B2B with the model in the terrain so he moves into B2B with the first model as well.... Now heres the catch... whats my init value??? I rolled for difficult terrain, but I never actully went through difficult terrain.. ????????????????????????

Just to let you know, rolling for Difficult/dangerous terrain is no longer the qualifier for going at initiative 1, you have to actually enter/move through terrain to reduce your initiative. So you'd go at your normal initiative in this scenario.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Camarodragon wrote:

 Idolator wrote:


Bottom line. The randomness of charge moves was not properly reconciled with movement through terrain. It's a serious flaw.

Just to let you know, rolling for Difficult/dangerous terrain is no longer the qualifier for going at initiative 1, you have to actually enter/move through terrain to reduce your initiative. So you'd go at your normal initiative in this scenario.

Yeah, I don't think that anyone has argued that bit. It's the one thing that we all seem to agree upon.

 Idolator wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Camarodragon wrote:

 Idolator wrote:


Bottom line. The randomness of charge moves was not properly reconciled with movement through terrain. It's a serious flaw.

Just to let you know, rolling for Difficult/dangerous terrain is no longer the qualifier for going at initiative 1, you have to actually enter/move through terrain to reduce your initiative. So you'd go at your normal initiative in this scenario.

Yeah, I don't think that anyone has argued that bit. It's the one thing that we all seem to agree upon.

Well that's good, I just didn't see anything mentioned about it after his post and he didn't seem to understand (as I didn't previously before having it pointed out to me a while back).

After this discussion, clearly, there is no written rule determining how this issue is resolved. Two rules (p.21 Move Initial Charger, and Errata p.22 Charging through difficult terrain) have a disconnect which is currently unresolved. Hopefully it is FAQ'd. Although, this is not a rule, I would suggest 3d6 to be rolled. 2 of one color, to determine if there is an issue with charge distance. The third is there if difficult terrain test is necessary.

Well, the charge distance is rolled before you move the initial charger, so it seems logical that all comparison of distances is done at this time. The way I would read it is you check the path from each model to the enemy unit by the shortest route (which, as always, means measuring to the closest model). Note that p.21 uses this distance "to the enemy" terminology in discussing the initial charger and that in this use it is referring to the distance between the specific model and the enemy unit.

If you play it this way - check the shortest path between each model and the target unit to see if it passes through difficult terrain, and if so then roll 3d6 - then this check is straightforwards and no time travel is required.