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Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Black smoke, no Pope today.



Rome (CNN) -- Black smoke billowed from the chimney of the Sistine Chapel Tuesday night, indicating that cardinals gathered at the Vatican to elect a new pope had not chosen one in the first ballot of their conclave.

The start of the secret election got underway earlier in the day, as the heavy wooden doors to the chapel swung closed on the 115 Roman Catholic cardinals charged with selecting the next pontiff.

The next round of voting will begin Wednesday morning. Results will be revealed by puffs of smoke from the chimney following each ballot.
Black smoke, no pope. White smoke, success.

On a day rich with symbolism, the scarlet-clad cardinals entered the Sistine Chapel in solemn procession, chanting prayers and watched over by the paintings of Renaissance artist Michelangelo.

A virtual look at the conclave vote World descends on Vatican for conclave CNN Explains: Papal succession
Led by the conclave's senior cardinal, Giovanni Battista Re, each of the cardinal-electors -- those under age 80 who are eligible to vote -- then swore an oath of secrecy.

A designated official then gave the order, in Latin, to those not authorized to remain, "Extra omnes" -- that is, "Everyone out."

With all those not taking part in the conclave gone, the cardinals will remain locked in isolation until one candidate garners two-thirds of their votes.

That man will emerge from the process as the new spiritual leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics.

Earlier, the cardinals celebrated a morning Mass at St. Peter's Basilica, where they prayed for guidance in making a choice that could be crucial to the direction of a church rocked by scandal in recent years.

Applause echoed around St. Peter's as Cardinal Angelo Sodano, dean of the College of Cardinals, offered thanks for the "brilliant pontificate" of Benedict XVI, whose unexpected resignation precipitated the selection of a new pope.

Sodano's homily focused on a message of love and unity, calling on all to cooperate with the new pontiff in the service of the church.

"My brothers, let us pray that the Lord will grant us a pontiff who will embrace this noble mission with a generous heart," he concluded.

Members of the public had waited in long lines Tuesday morning to join the Mass. As the service began, the morning sunshine came to an abrupt end, with the skies letting loose thunder, lightning and a torrential downpour.

Before the service, the cardinal-electors had moved into Casa Santa Marta, their residence at the Vatican for the duration of the conclave.
Jamming devices have been put in place to stop them from communicating with the outside world via mobile phones or other electronic means as they make their decision.

Rome was abuzz Monday with preparations for the conclave, from the 5,600 journalists the Vatican said had been accredited to cover the event to the red curtains unfurled from the central balcony at St. Peter's, the spot where the world will meet the new pope once he is elected.

Tailors have completed sets of clothes for the new pope to wear as soon as he is elected, in three sizes.

Video released by the Vatican over the weekend showed the installation of a pair of stoves inside the chapel. One is used to burn the cardinals' ballots after they are cast and the other to send up the smoke signal -- the one that alerts the world that a vote has been taken and whether there's a new pope.

When cardinals elected Benedict in 2005, the white smoke signaling the decision came about six hours after an earlier, inconclusive vote, Lombardi said.

It took another 50 minutes for Benedict to dress, pray and finally appear on the balcony of St. Peter's, he said.

The longest conclave held since the turn of the 20th century lasted five days.

On Monday, cardinals held the last of several days of meetings, known as General Congregations, to discuss church affairs and get acquainted. Lombardi said 152 cardinals were on hand for the final meeting.

As well as getting to know their counterparts from around the world, the cardinals discussed the major issues facing the church, including its handling of allegations of child sex abuse by priests and a scandal over leaks from the Vatican last year that revealed claims of corruption, as well as the church's future direction.

Church rules prevent cardinals over the age of 80 from participating in the conclave but allow them to attend the meetings that precede the vote.
Who will be chosen?

Meanwhile, the Italian news media are full of speculation about which cardinal may win enough support from his counterparts to be elected, and what regional alliances are being formed.

According to CNN Vatican analyst John Allen, also a correspondent for the National Catholic Reporter, the race was wide open as the cardinals entered the conclave.
Unlike in 2005, when Benedict XVI was believed to be the favorite going into the election, no one has emerged as a clear frontrunner this time around, Allen said.

Some names have cropped up in media reports as possible contenders, however. They include Italy's Cardinal Angelo Scola; Brazil's Odilo Scherer; Marc Ouellet of Quebec, Canada; U.S. cardinals Sean O'Malley of Boston and Timothy Dolan of New York; and Ghana's Peter Turkson.

More than 80% of Africans believe their continent is ready for an African pope, but only 61% believe the world is, an exclusive survey for CNN has found.

A mobile phone survey of 20,000 Africans from 11 nations, conducted by CNN in conjunction with crowd sourcing company Jana, found that 86% thought an African pope would increase support for Catholicism in Africa.

Italy potentially wields the most power within the conclave, with 28 of the 115 votes, making it the largest bloc in the College of Cardinals. The United States is second with 11. Altogether, 48 countries are represented among the cardinal-electors.

"Many would say it's all about politics at this point," Monsignor Rick Hilgartner, head of U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops Secretariat on Divine Worship, told CNN, "but I think it's important to remember that they also recognize that this is a very spiritual moment."

Once the doors close and the conclave begins, he says, it's less about politicking and "more about prayer as they each in silence write their votes."

Sixty-seven of the cardinal-electors were appointed by Benedict, who stepped down at the end of last month, becoming the first pontiff to do so in six centuries


If you'd like to read more about how a conclave works, there is a good article here . This article includes the best fact I've learned today:

To resolve prolonged deadlocks in the earlier years of papal elections, local authorities often resorted to the forced seclusion of the cardinal electors, such as that first adopted by the city of Rome in 1241, and possibly before that by Perugia in 1216.[55] In 1269, when the forced seclusion of the cardinals alone failed to produce a pope, the city of Viterbo refused to send in any materials except bread and water. When even this failed to produce a result, the townspeople removed the roof of the Palazzo dei Papi in their attempt to speed up the election.[56]


Please note: if you want to post questions asking about how this works, and so on, that would be awesome. If you want to post about sex scandals, how much of an agnostic or atheist you are, or other such stuff, please create a new thread. Stay on topic!


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Not gonna happen, but A. Bishop Dolan would be great... he's fricking hilarious...

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Has there been any sign that the election has any real chance of picking a pope who will make any meaningful changes in church policy, or is this just a question of which figurehead will get a nice new title and obscene luxury?

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







Is this Episode IV: A New Pope?

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"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Peregrine wrote:
Has there been any sign that the election has any real chance of picking a pope who will make any meaningful changes in church policy


I think it's likely that the process of rising through the ranks to become a serious papal contender would also weed out candidates who would make serious liberalization attempts. I think Odilo Scherer is likely to be as moderate as it's going to get.


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

I think it's to be their benefit if the next pope is open to new communication technologies... ie, twitter, blogging, sense of humor (which Dolan excels at )

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Well, as a New Yorker, he'd be my pick anyway.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Ouze wrote:
Well, as a New Yorker, he'd be my pick anyway.

He was raised in Missouri...

Ain't going to happen though...

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in gb
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator




This dude is my pic:



Anthony Olubunmi Okogie
Age:76 Country:Nigeria Outlook:Conservative Careerastoral

After serving for a short time as pastoral assistant at the Holy Cross Cathedral, Okogi was drafted into the Nigerian army as a chaplain. He was transferred to Lagos as Auxiliary Bishop, then in 1973 was nominated archbishop. In August 1971, he was ordained titular bishop of Mascula and auxiliary of Oyo. Cardinal Okogie played a prominent role in the Christian Association of Nigeria (CAN), which he served as president. In 2002 he volunteered to die in place of a Muslim woman sentenced to be stoned to death for the crime of adultery. He has criticised the US in the past and, in 2007, condemned the Nigerian governments approval for a condom factory in Yenagoa, saying: The condom is widely known not to be a safe protector against HIV/Aids. He was created a cardinal by John Paul II on 21 October 2003.

believes contraception is never justified
is defensive about relations with other faiths
is not facing questions over any abuse scandals
is not facing questions over the handling of the Vatileaks scandal

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/13 00:42:49


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Spyral wrote:
believes contraception is never justified


So, business as usual then, another out-of-touch figurehead who cares more about spiritual "purity" than real-world harm. I guess that answers my question about whether we'll see any changes out of this election.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Oberstleutnant





Back in the English morass

Its a vast, ancient, hidebound and slowly dying organisation, of course nothing will change.

RegalPhantom wrote:
If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Palindrome wrote:
Its a vast, ancient, hidebound and slowly dying organisation, of course nothing will change.

wait...wut? o.O


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Peregrine wrote:
 Spyral wrote:
believes contraception is never justified


So, business as usual then, another out-of-touch figurehead who cares more about spiritual "purity" than real-world harm. I guess that answers my question about whether we'll see any changes out of this election.

So, you're going to condemn the whole thing on one thing? Shallow man... shallow.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/13 00:55:52


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in gb
Oberstleutnant





Back in the English morass

None of the cardinals will make a blind bit of difference to the catholic faith and its role in the world. It doesn't matter who will be pope becuase they don't have the power, even if they had the inclination, to make anything more than token reforms.

In other words it will be business as usual.

RegalPhantom wrote:
If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog 
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

I'm thinking the Brazlilian front runner is likely

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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Made in us
Douglas Bader






 whembly wrote:
So, you're going to condemn the whole thing on one thing? Shallow man... shallow.


It's not really shallow.

1) It's a horrible, horrible policy that favors ideological purity over the tremendous real-world harm it causes. And things like "the condom is widely known not to be a safe protector against HIV/Aids" are blatant lies. In any sane world this alone would exclude him.

2) It's completely out of touch with even most believers. The church leadership can rant all it wants about how birth control is a sin, meanwhile most catholics completely ignore the rule.

So, the fact that a serious candidate is advocating such an insane position is a strong hint that there isn't much potential for badly-needed reform. The new pope will likely be a figurehead of an increasingly irrelevant institution, and continue to value the "infallibility" of church doctrine more than practical issues of doing the right thing.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

Marc Ouellet's brother was charged as a child paedophile and their is hope that, if he's chosen as next pope, it might bring to light the issue of priests and children.

Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Peregrine wrote:
 whembly wrote:
So, you're going to condemn the whole thing on one thing? Shallow man... shallow.


It's not really shallow.

1) It's a horrible, horrible policy that favors ideological purity over the tremendous real-world harm it causes. And things like "the condom is widely known not to be a safe protector against HIV/Aids" are blatant lies. In any sane world this alone would exclude him.

2) It's completely out of touch with even most believers. The church leadership can rant all it wants about how birth control is a sin, meanwhile most catholics completely ignore the rule.

So, the fact that a serious candidate is advocating such an insane position is a strong hint that there isn't much potential for badly-needed reform. The new pope will likely be a figurehead of an increasingly irrelevant institution, and continue to value the "infallibility" of church doctrine more than practical issues of doing the right thing.

Okay... that's your opinion... cool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Nobody wrote:
Marc Ouellet's brother was charged as a child paedophile and their is hope that, if he's chosen as next pope, it might bring to light the issue of priests and children.

WhaaaaaaaT? o.O

IF that's true, then no... I don't see that happening.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/13 01:43:56


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

I would love to see Dolan elected.
Especially if his first Mass is this Sunday..... even Belfast would celebrate.

However, Many European Cardnals see Americans as too liberal and will not even consider one for the position.

The likely Pope will be either Italian or mid european.

Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

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Made in us
Crazed Bloodkine




Baltimore, Maryland

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Marc Ouellet's brother was charged as a child paedophile and their is hope that, if he's chosen as next pope, it might bring to light the issue of priests and children.


Or it could bring to light that sexual deviance is everywhere in modern culture. Marc Oullet's brother was an special needs teacher and poet/artist with two daughters of his own. How would this have any bearing on Cardinal Oullett or the "issue of priests and children?"

"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
 
   
Made in ca
Zealous Sin-Eater




Montreal

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Marc Ouellet's brother was charged as a child paedophile and their is hope that, if he's chosen as next pope, it might bring to light the issue of priests and children.


I really hope he won't be the next pope. As impressive his teaching career is, in the last years, he's proven himself to be the french-canadian equivalent of the 'legitimate rape' fiasco the Republican had during last election.

Plus, his only retort to any criticism is 'Well, it's hard to accept the truth, but it doesn't stop it from being the truth'.

Finally, he is flooding the news here. God knows what will happen if he is elected. It's as if half the population here has momentarily forgotten the Quiet Revolution...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/13 02:08:29


[...] for conflict is the great teacher, and pain, the perfect educator.  
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





My thought is going to be an Italian but I keep looking at Erdo.


Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
>Raptors Lead the Way < 
   
Made in gb
Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator




 Peregrine wrote:


1) It's a horrible, horrible policy that favors ideological purity over the tremendous real-world harm it causes. And things like "the condom is widely known not to be a safe protector against HIV/Aids" are blatant lies. In any sane world this alone would exclude him.

2) It's completely out of touch with even most believers. The church leadership can rant all it wants about how birth control is a sin, meanwhile most catholics completely ignore the rule.

So, the fact that a serious candidate is advocating such an insane position is a strong hint that there isn't much potential for badly-needed reform. The new pope will likely be a figurehead of an increasingly irrelevant institution, and continue to value the "infallibility" of church doctrine more than practical issues of doing the right thing.


i) Condoms are only 85% effective in practice according to the WHO so 3 in 20 times you'd run the risk of getting HIV/AIDS

ii) Truth is not decided by a majority vote.
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





What do we call the Pope candidates? Popetentials?


 Peregrine wrote:
So, business as usual then, another out-of-touch figurehead who cares more about spiritual "purity" than real-world harm. I guess that answers my question about whether we'll see any changes out of this election.


One issue a lot of Catholics here are worried about is if, as seems possible, they opt for an African Pope. While our last couple of popes might be nowhere near as progressive as you or I would like, they were a long way better than most of the faithful in Africa. There's real concern that an African Pope might actually lead the church in the other direction.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in gb
Oberstleutnant





Back in the English morass

 Spyral wrote:

i) Condoms are only 85% effective in practice according to the WHO
.


Which obviously means that they are useless. The WHO study has quite significant flaws, by their own admission. Condoms are commonly held to be 90-95% effective when used consistently and correctly.

If there is a hardline African pope what real damage can they actually do that isn't being/has been done already?


RegalPhantom wrote:
If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 Peregrine wrote:

It's not really shallow.


Yeah, it is.

 Peregrine wrote:

1) It's a horrible, horrible policy that favors ideological purity over the tremendous real-world harm it causes.


Do you honestly believe that real-world harm cannot be caused by violations of ideological purity?

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Spyral wrote:
i) Condoms are only 85% effective in practice according to the WHO so 3 in 20 times you'd run the risk of getting HIV/AIDS


1) The "in actual use" numbers include "failures" like "we didn't bother using it this time". If you instead look at the numbers for proper use the chances are even lower.

2) An 85% reduction in risk is MUCH better than a 0% reduction in risk, unless of course you're a high-ranking church official. There's really nothing to argue about here, the official church position on birth control encourages the spread of horrible diseases.

ii) Truth is not decided by a majority vote.


You're right. Truth is decided by reality, and reality says the catholic church isn't just wrong on this subject, they're dangerously wrong.

Anyway, the point about a majority of members disagreeing with the official position isn't about truth, it's about relevance. Church leadership can cling to a belief that most people disagree with, but it just means they'll continue to become less and less relevant as people continue to leave the church in large numbers. Which was the original question, whether there's a realistic chance that the next pope will make meaningful reforms instead of just being a weak figurehead for a declining organization.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Spyral wrote:
i) Condoms are only 85% effective in practice according to the WHO so 3 in 20 times you'd run the risk of getting HIV/AIDS

ii) Truth is not decided by a majority vote.


1) That number includes user error. Without user error the rate improves to in excess of 98%. Also, that number is the rate of success over a year, assuming a normal amount of sexual activity, so your effort to expand on the figure is woefully in error.

2) Absolutely true. But when the majority of your population simply stops listening to your edicts on the pill, condoms etc and uses them as part of their regular lives... only for both the church and its followers to carry on otherwise carrying on pretending the Church hierarchy represents a moral authority that can't be ignored... well then you've got a big problem.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 dogma wrote:
Do you honestly believe that real-world harm cannot be caused by violations of ideological purity?


Who cares? Unless you're part of the small minority* that believes in the complete infallibility of church doctrine I don't see how you can possibly argue that the real-world harm of increasing the spread of horrible diseases is less than the "harm" of the church having to admit it was wrong about something.

*See previous comment about most catholics ignoring the official rules about birth control.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 Peregrine wrote:

Who cares?


Catholics.

 Peregrine wrote:

Unless you're part of the small minority* that believes in the complete infallibility of church doctrine I don't see how you can possibly argue that the real-world harm of increasing the spread of horrible diseases is less than the "harm" of the church having to admit it was wrong about something.


It is a question of hedons.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 dogma wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:

Who cares?


Catholics.


Except most (US, and probably true elsewhere) catholics don't, since they ignore the church's rules banning birth control.

 Peregrine wrote:
It is a question of hedons.


Sigh. I can see where this is going, another pointless tangent where you demand absolute proof of even the most uncontroversial facts, and insist that no ethical statement can be made without first giving a complete and problem-free ethical system. Unfortunately for you, I'm not taking the bait. If you want to address the substance of the argument, fine, but if you just want to derail it into an abstract philosophical debate you're going to be doing it alone.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
 
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